Someone fill me in...

[Alan]

...as I haven't watched much of the Pistons this year. What is so special about this Okur guy?

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

...as I haven't watched much of the Pistons this year. What is so special about this Okur guy?

Nothing. He is a big man with potential, thats about it. Good shooter though, and it seems like a decent offensive game to make up for is bad defense. Haven't watched them much either though.

 

[Joe Mama]

Nothing. He is a big man with potential, thats about it. Good shooter though, and it seems like a decent offensive game to make up for is bad defense. Haven't watched them much either though.

Okur is not quick or athletic enough to be a great defender. He isn't necessarily a poor defender though. From what I've seen he's no worse than Jake Voskuhl.

He definitely isn't the defensive presence in the middle of the floor that the Phoenix Suns desperately need however.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

Apparently Okur is the one who is interested in Phoenix. I'm skeptical whether the Suns think as highly of him.

 

[F-Dog]

Okur is like Jake Voskuhl, but he's a threat on offense--enough of a post game to punish mismatches, solid mid-range jumper, and his shooting range extends to the 3-pt. line. Offensively, Okur is pretty much what the Suns are looking for in a center.

Also, he's young enough (and has played few enough minutes) that there's hope he'll continue to improve.

 

[George O'Brien]

Okur is like Jake Voskuhl, but he's a threat on offense--enough of a post game to punish mismatches, solid mid-range jumper, and his shooting range extends to the 3-pt. line. Offensively, Okur is pretty much what the Suns are looking for in a center.

Also, he's young enough (and has played few enough minutes) that there's hope he'll continue to improve.

The problem most of us have with Okur is that he will be paid for what he "might" do, rather than what he actually does. Based on production, he is worth about $3 to $4 million a year, tops. But people think he will become really good and so he gets $6 to $7 million.

I don't like overpaying for promise. I'm concerned that Mark Blount has only had 1/2 a year of playing really well - but at least he has played really well. Okur hasn't knocked anyones socks off yet.

 

[Joe Mama]

Here's my problem with giving Okur a big contract. Offensively I think he is just about a perfect fit for the Phoenix Suns. He needs to improve his passing skills a bit, but the potential is there. However it's defensively that the Phoenix Suns need that most help at the center position. Okur does very little if anything to improve the middle of the defense. Hell, if we are only considering offense I think Lampe could be every bit as good and probably better than Okur by the end of next season. He might even be affected by the end of this summer. I would rather they spend their money on Foyle

BTW, I have changed my mind with what I think Okur will get paid this summer. In the end I think a team like Utah will give him between six and $7 million.

Joe Mama

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Here's my problem with giving Okur a big contract. Offensively I think he is just about a perfect fit for the Phoenix Suns. He needs to improve his passing skills a bit, but the potential is there. However it's defensively that the Phoenix Suns need that most help at the center position. Okur does very little if anything to improve the middle of the defense. Hell, if we are only considering offense I think Lampe could be every bit as good and probably better than Okur by the end of next season. He might even be affected by the end of this summer. I would rather they spend their money on Foyle

BTW, I have changed my mind with what I think Okur will get paid this summer. In the end I think a team like Utah will give him between six and $7 million.

Joe Mama

I couldn't agree more. However, that doesn't really change my intial point. Since you are one of the biggest advocates of how much Marion is untradable due to his contract, I was wondering what you thought about the Okur for Marion swap.

You seem pretty sold Marion will never be worth his contract. So, isn't it better to sign a big man of similar age, to a contract starting 4 million less? If Marion will be unmoveable for presumably the rest of his career (at least in a semi decent trade), then shouldn't the suns push for a deal like this?

Even if we are overpaying him for the rest of his contract, will it be more than you think we overpay Marion? Or is the difference in Marion's contributions over Okur's presumed impact worth more than the 4million savings? (Also, assuming we will make a trade to clear space regardless, is it worth more than the #7 pick and White's expiring deal?)

 

[George O'Brien]

There are two ways to look at overpayment. One is in absolute terms, ie "he is $2 million above market" and the other is proportionately, such as "he is 50% to high."

Let us assume that Marion is overpaid by $2 million at $11.5 million and Okur would be overpaid by $2 million at $6.5 million. The same amount, but Marion would be overpaid by only 17.4% while Okur would be overpaid by 30.7%.

It can work the other direction. Eisley is more overpaid as a percentage than Hardaway, but Penny was overpaid by about $12 million while Eisley by only $5.5 million.

 

[cly2tw]

There are two ways to look at overpayment. One is in absolute terms, ie "he is $2 million above market" and the other is proportionately, such as "he is 50% to high."

Let us assume that Marion is overpaid by $2 million at $11.5 million and Okur would be overpaid by $2 million at $6.5 million. The same amount, but Marion would be overpaid by only 17.4% while Okur would be overpaid by 30.7%.

It can work the other direction. Eisley is more overpaid as a percentage than Hardaway, but Penny was overpaid by about $12 million while Eisley by only $5.5 million.

George,

with number, one is susceptible to fallacies. Suppose Marion is really only overpaid by 2 mil as Okur would with a contract of 6-7 mil. For a team with cap room, the opportunity costs of overpaying Marion can be much higher than the "same amount" with Okur! Why that? With Okur's instead of Marion's on the payroll, we'd have 5-6 mil more cap room. Together with the say 10 mil cap room already available, we'd be comparing Kobe-Okur on the team vs. Marion-Camby, all things else being equal. Alternatively, we'd move Eisley with our lotto-pick to sign Kobe, with no Camby. Then, Marion would appear to be even more overpaid since he'd not have as many shots with Kobe on hand, which makes him, according to Joe Mama, of about the same value like Prince. Prince is a better defender and maybe a better fit with Kobe on hand anyway.

In summary, a team, where Marion is only overpaid by 2 mil., meaning he'd get about 20 shots per game for 18 pt while playing 40 min., simply can't ever be more than mediocre! If you want to build a winner, you gotta make Marion appear to be overpaid by a lot more, like by 7 mil, similar to the situation in Dallas. He'd be overpaid about the same amount Jamison is on that team!

 

[George O'Brien]

I don't really know how to respond. It is based on the absurd notion that Detroit is going to transfer its cap space to the Suns so the Suns can go out and sign a big name player. Even if I liked Okur, I would simply dismiss this as absurd. Instead of trying to have both big men, the Pistons lose both and get Marion who plays the same position as one of their key defenisve players.

 

[Joe Mama]

I don't really know how to respond. It is based on the absurd notion that Detroit is going to transfer its cap space to the Suns so the Suns can go out and sign a big name player. Even if I liked Okur, I would simply dismiss this as absurd. Instead of trying to have both big men, the Pistons lose both and get Marion who plays the same position as one of their key defenisve players.

amen. I don't really like this trade for either team, but I can guarantee that the Detroit Pistons would never do it. As I pointed out already in another thread it just doesn't make any sense.

Joe Mama