Spending to the Cap

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Is it only me or does anyone else think that if the Cards OL was just a little bit better last year, maybe the Cards could have beat the 49ers. Just another 2 or 3 first downs running the ball, taking a little more time off the clock?

Yeah, I think it is only you. What a load of crap.

 

[Russ Smith]

Once again I fail to see where nayone can show me the the Cards have consistantly failed to spend to the cap. According to the #'s in the USA Today over the last 5 years they have spent MORE money then the cap, not less money folks, MORE money.


Once again I state if you want to argue about HOW they have spent thier money (i.e. saving it and resigning thier own below average players, or overspending for other too old to play any more players) thats fine and an argument you would have very valid points, but do not argue that they are not spending the money.

The numbers I've seen and the ones Steve has shown show us to be under the cap in everyone of those 5 years(save one that Steve mentioned). So I'm not sure what the USA today numbers are, can you post them again? Not saying they're wrong, just that everything I've seen over the last 5 years says we go into the FA period with more caproom than most NFL teams, we use some but not all of it, so I'm not clear on how we're spending to the cap.

There's been a clear shift in direction, it started pre Green but has built up momentum since Green was hired, we're doing a lot of things differently now, for the better. But I still say until i see numbers otherwise that Steve is right in his claim that we're choosing to save cap money for tomorrow that we could have spent to improve the team today. He used a RG last year, I used Surtain this year, an example of a player who fit a glaring need. If we're passing on these guys because we think they want too much money that's ok, but I just am not yet convinced that we're not just hoarding PTO for a vacation we'll never take.

Let's face it I'm from Missouri originally(show me) and I've been a Card fan forever, it's going to take me a while to be convinced that we're really going to use that caproom.

 

[ajcardfan]

Well, they HAVE carried as more caproom going into the season over the last five years than anyone. However, they've also done extensions every single year of the last five, not just 2003. Now, it's never been announced, ever, how much they had left of cap space when the season was over. But, logic would tell you that after they extended Wilson and Player last year, it couldn't have been very much.

 

[CardShark]

Okay, maybe the Cards didn't spend their cap money wisely, but they did spend it. I know the 1 year that Graves took total control and waited too long to delve into free agency and ended up with all kinds of money left over. That was the year they started re-signing players to contract extensions. So they did end up using their cap space. Now it looks as though it was done unwisely as all of those players are gone.

The idea of waiting until June 1st means you have more money to spend is ludicrous because that cap money is gauranteed. It may have already been paid out but its cap hit is real. You may have more to spend this year, but you'll have less to spend next year.

I no longer fall into the camp of going out and paying whatever it takes to get a couple of "stars" in here. After seeing what the Cards have been able to do during the last 2 offseasons, I don't feel that sense of desperation that we have to overpay for players to come in here. We don't have to make crazy trades to move up and get another high priced draft pick. Green has shown that there are quality, unheralded players out there that we don't have to break the bank for. Most of the players that we have drooled over are looking for a team to shower them with money. Even this year, players like Alexander and Surtain, who most would like to see in Cardinal Red, are wanting to break the casino. If there are good players out there that can be signed for an amount that will fit, I'm sure the Cards will look at them.

I'm not asking them to be stupid and waste money. I am just asking them to plan and budget, find the right players, and do the best they can do.

I thought that's what they were doing.
You just need patience and to trust that we finally have people working to make us legitimate contenders. Not just for the immediate but the distant future as well. They are managing the cap very well.

 

[CronosCard]

"..And in this corner.."

GOTTA retrack and check myself for the last statement I made to you,
A-ntS-portsS-teve. I try to give everyone respect for their views. I went back and read over alot of your posts on this tired loser thread of yours. You know what? I took your ..arguing over minutia, standingup for points so worn out[BY YOU] and nebulous as to be clouding the issues you stated you were trying to elucidate et al as a sort of "blundering passion" about whatever it was you thought you believed in, and for some strange reason[well, it was Sunday..] it appealed to me. As I read more over the last hours, the only sense I can make of them is:


Do You Have A Hard-On For The Bidwills??

You continually question their character, honesty, integrity..Just Lose It!

 

[JasonKGME]

The numbers I've seen and the ones Steve has shown show us to be under the cap in everyone of those 5 years(save one that Steve mentioned). So I'm not sure what the USA today numbers are, can you post them again? Not saying they're wrong, just that everything I've seen over the last 5 years says we go into the FA period with more caproom than most NFL teams, we use some but not all of it, so I'm not clear on how we're spending to the cap.

There's been a clear shift in direction, it started pre Green but has built up momentum since Green was hired, we're doing a lot of things differently now, for the better. But I still say until i see numbers otherwise that Steve is right in his claim that we're choosing to save cap money for tomorrow that we could have spent to improve the team today. He used a RG last year, I used Surtain this year, an example of a player who fit a glaring need. If we're passing on these guys because we think they want too much money that's ok, but I just am not yet convinced that we're not just hoarding PTO for a vacation we'll never take.

Let's face it I'm from Missouri originally(show me) and I've been a Card fan forever, it's going to take me a while to be convinced that we're really going to use that caproom.

Here's the link to the USA today site again:

http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/teamdetail.aspx?team=1&year=2004

 

[Russ Smith]

Well, they HAVE carried as more caproom going into the season over the last five years than anyone. However, they've also done extensions every single year of the last five, not just 2003. Now, it's never been announced, ever, how much they had left of cap space when the season was over. But, logic would tell you that after they extended Wilson and Player last year, it couldn't have been very much.

And I think that's the main discrepancy between Steve and Jason(and me).
Steve is saying(and I'm agreeing) that going into the season with 8 million in caproom and then using 4-5 of it on extensions is not the same as taking that 4-5 million into FA BEFORE the season and using it to try and sign a key FA. Not saying we shouldn't extend guys like Wilson and Player or Boldin this year but I'm fairly certain based on Graves' comments last year that we budgeted caproom for Anquan's new contract LAST season, it just never got done because he got hurt.

There's no question that this franchise has turned the corner, it's just hard after so many years of letdowns for me to just blindly believe that next year we're going to use all that caproom to better the team. Again, if we're extending guys liek Dockett or Dansby because they outplayed their contract I'm fine with that too, but to hear every year that so and so is not on our radar because of money when we have more caproom than most other teams, does make you wonder.

 

[Russ Smith]

Here's the link to the USA today site again:

http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/teamdetail.aspx?team=1&year=2004

Thanks, I'll take a closer look. It appears to me as I responded to AJ the primary disagreement is that some of us are saying extending players midseason and eating up current caproom is not the same as budgeting that money during FA to try and get that one key guy that might put you over the top. Obviously we've all seen that FA is not a fix all, a lot of teams have spent big money on guys who were going to win them a Super Bowl, and lost anyways. In general teams that spend their way to a SB do so largely with their own players and 1-2 key guys, which is apparently what Green is trying to do here.

I guess for me I'm still very concerned about the inexperience at CB which is why I keep wondering why we didn't sign a veteran CB?

 

[CronosCard]

"..And in this corner.."

Russ,
I wondered also why we didn't go after Surtain, "spend more money if we had it to spend on Green's watch"..Obviously he knows what to do with it.
Looking at everything DG is doing, seeing how moves made last year before the 2004 season[besides the current thread], hiring Hargraves[who?]to some position, with a new quality-control guy...[What's all this crap about/, my attitude then might have said, and DG knew then in his LARGER PLAN that Hargraves knows more about the Offensive system DG is implemeting
this year than anyone around, along with, of course DG the creator.
The new quality-control guy[ named in Coach Rowan's interview] from back before the 2004 season- drew up the Cardinals' offensive playbook.
I really wonder if before Green/Graves and in particular Michael Bidwill, if the upper mgt. ie Bidwills were reticent about spending the extra cap money, not really understanding how EXACTLY the "system worked"[supported by them signing players only to old-style contracts, no "bells/whistles for so long]
I wondered why we had not used our Franchise or Transition tag for so long[Russ, what is a transition tag, what is the compensation, when might we use it? sincewho?Kwamie? Do we gain anything by using either of these two tags, or lose?

Bottom line and why I posted, Russ-I don't think DG needs to send messages-
the phrase reeks of a sort of deception implied.. DG doesn't need deception..
TO ME
To be a DG player "he" must first learn what is expected of him, why it is expected, then search within himself as to whether he can INTRINSICALLY motivate himself to the levels of excellence required to attain and maintain this excellence throughout his football career, year-round take care of your business, Cardinals come first! How many of DG's players are/were coaches for him? That is a big bite to chew off for an NFL ROOKIE, a "choking" bite for many players on a team that DG is hired on.
THAT is the REASON so many of these players from the b.g. Cardinals are gone. No conspiracy-theory, no more bagging on the Bidwills for not spending what's necessary to field a winner..How would they know what to spend on and not on anyway, unless they were veritable capologists..?
People, quit searching for the smoking "[former]futureGM" theory on why the Cardinals are never going to win. Instead, just watch and appreciate a [in his own right] football genius at work. No "Bullsh1t","believe that when I see it"
OK THEN just shut your damn pieholes and watch this staff put together by DG put a winner on the field!

 

[Russ Smith]

OK THEN just shut your damn pieholes and watch this staff put together by DG put a winner on the field!

I'll shut my piehole if you learn to write in sentences with grammar so I can understand what the heck you're saying.

 

[spanky1]

I'll shut my piehole if you learn to write in sentences with grammar so I can understand what the heck you're saying.

Russ,

Correct.......that was a very painful read to be sure.

 

[conraddobler]

Thanks, I'll take a closer look. It appears to me as I responded to AJ the primary disagreement is that some of us are saying extending players midseason and eating up current caproom is not the same as budgeting that money during FA to try and get that one key guy that might put you over the top. Obviously we've all seen that FA is not a fix all, a lot of teams have spent big money on guys who were going to win them a Super Bowl, and lost anyways. In general teams that spend their way to a SB do so largely with their own players and 1-2 key guys, which is apparently what Green is trying to do here.

I guess for me I'm still very concerned about the inexperience at CB which is why I keep wondering why we didn't sign a veteran CB?

Seasame street says it all.

"Which one is not like the others?"

Just look at how we manage the cap in comparison to other teams. We've made huge strides the last couple years, trouble is we started about 500 miles behind everyone else.

It's moving in the right direction but most teams coooing about their cap room aren't very good. Cap room on playoff caliber teams is never as abundant as our has been.

 

[CardShark]

Seasame street says it all.

"Which one is not like the others?"

Just look at how we manage the cap in comparison to other teams. We've made huge strides the last couple years, trouble is we started about 500 miles behind everyone else.

It's moving in the right direction but most teams coooing about their cap room aren't very good. Cap room on playoff caliber teams is never as abundant as our has been.

The Eagles and the Patriots have both learned to manage the cap very well.

 

[conraddobler]

The Eagles and the Patriots have both learned to manage the cap very well.

Fine then compare our cap room to theirs and prove we are like them.

Say for the last 5 years.

 

[CronosCard]

"..And in this corner.."

To Russ and Spanky1: that first paragraph got sort of superimposed on itself as I re-rechanged what I was trying to say..I hope you to,two,2 gentlemen didn't toss your cookies while the boat rocked on in paragraph1..{so that's what the preview post button is for. }
I have to remember that generally I am not grappling with any poster/rs directly but with a position I may disagree with. "Must I "alwaaaa.." always say It's not meant to be personal, it's meant to be "educational" !?
Thanks for the positive critiques ofparagraph1{Look Madge, its taken on a life of its own} Russ and Spanky1, LOOK! even the second paragraph of my original post was improved!

Paragraph 1 revised..Hmm... OK, got one. Russ, I meant to ask you what two things meant that flip my lid! Compensatory Picks, and the use of Franchise/Transition tags?

 

[JasonKGME]

And I think that's the main discrepancy between Steve and Jason(and me).
Steve is saying(and I'm agreeing) that going into the season with 8 million in caproom and then using 4-5 of it on extensions is not the same as taking that 4-5 million into FA BEFORE the season and using it to try and sign a key FA. Not saying we shouldn't extend guys like Wilson and Player or Boldin this year but I'm fairly certain based on Graves' comments last year that we budgeted caproom for Anquan's new contract LAST season, it just never got done because he got hurt.

There's no question that this franchise has turned the corner, it's just hard after so many years of letdowns for me to just blindly believe that next year we're going to use all that caproom to better the team. Again, if we're extending guys liek Dockett or Dansby because they outplayed their contract I'm fine with that too, but to hear every year that so and so is not on our radar because of money when we have more caproom than most other teams, does make you wonder.

Well as I stated several times before there is valid arguments about HOW the Cards spend thier cap money, some of the decisions in the past were certainly questionable to say the least, my only argument wiith AntSportSteve and other like him is they are under the impression that the Cards or Bidwells are "cheap" and don't spend the money to get players, which is in correct, it's just they are spending the money on the wrong players in the past.

 

[Cards Czar]

Cronos, you really have to get rid of the Icons man. Its very hard to read what you are trying to say with those Icons and your sentence sturcture.
Jason,Russ and Steve all have valid points about this. The Cards front office is starting to finally get the big picture on the cap structure.This was do to Big Bills friends running the front office. Well they are finally pushing them to the wayside and I think there is finally light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[Russ Smith]

Well as I stated several times before there is valid arguments about HOW the Cards spend thier cap money, some of the decisions in the past were certainly questionable to say the least, my only argument wiith AntSportSteve and other like him is they are under the impression that the Cards or Bidwells are "cheap" and don't spend the money to get players, which is in correct, it's just they are spending the money on the wrong players in the past.

I agree the Bidwills aren't cheap anymore. I do think you can argue that the team has chosen to take the approach of build to next year instead of go for it now.

For example my ranting last year that we should try to get Lamont Jordan before the trade deadline. Now obviously given what jordan got as a FA I would assume that Graves and Green knew he wanted big money and that trading for him would be a mistake because they didn't want to pony up for that contract. But my argument then was that the difference between and aging Emmitt and a young stud like Jordan could have been enough to put us in the playoffs last year. You look at the 2 49er losses and some other games and I gotta believe he could have been the difference in 2-3 games.

But Green is choosing to build the foundation for the future instead of take on a guy who will demand a big raise. Doesn't mean he's wrong, just means that there are different ways to build it. To me making that big deal (Jordan last year, Surtain this year) that might push you over the top into the playoffs then gives you more leverage in FA, but to Green he doesn't seem to believe in FA for key talent, he thinks he can get that in the draft. So far hard to argue he's wrong he's had 2 strong drafts.

 

[conraddobler]

I agree the Bidwills aren't cheap anymore. I do think you can argue that the team has chosen to take the approach of build to next year instead of go for it now.

For example my ranting last year that we should try to get Lamont Jordan before the trade deadline. Now obviously given what jordan got as a FA I would assume that Graves and Green knew he wanted big money and that trading for him would be a mistake because they didn't want to pony up for that contract. But my argument then was that the difference between and aging Emmitt and a young stud like Jordan could have been enough to put us in the playoffs last year. You look at the 2 49er losses and some other games and I gotta believe he could have been the difference in 2-3 games.

But Green is choosing to build the foundation for the future instead of take on a guy who will demand a big raise. Doesn't mean he's wrong, just means that there are different ways to build it. To me making that big deal (Jordan last year, Surtain this year) that might push you over the top into the playoffs then gives you more leverage in FA, but to Green he doesn't seem to believe in FA for key talent, he thinks he can get that in the draft. So far hard to argue he's wrong he's had 2 strong drafts.

I agree with almost everything you said.

In my opinion they are determined not to spend big $ on a FA unless they meet certain criteria, mostly that they are young.

It's pretty much what the Eagles used to do before they made all their runs at the Super Bowl.

Lately the Eagles have done things to sign older players but that's to push them over the edge although it hasn't worked completely yet.

Your right it is hard to argue with, still every year the team seems to be able to pocket left over cap money. Again given our situation now that isn't too bad and it's hard to begrudge them that since the revenue from the new stadium hasn't kicked in yet.

Case in point would be Shelton. When you pay big bonuses like the Cardinals did to Shelton then cut him yes it hurts your cap however at the time they would have had room to do it and still finished the year with plenty of room to spare, Great teams and even good ones faced with the same situation may have cut him last year and signed another player but that would have cost more cash. In real terms letting him play one year saves you real $ on his replacement and I suspect that is the reason he was not let go last year.

Shelton had a relatively light salary and the bonus had already been paid it was a sunk cost, To sign someone to fill his roster spot and upgrade the team would cost another big bonus = more out of pocket cash and that's always where you see the Cardinals stop short. They do give big bonuses in total sums of bonuses paid though I'd imagine that year after year they lag almost everyone.

Honestly, IMO this has been planned to coincide with the new stadium and so far it looks like a good plan. You can still see gaps in what they spend though and if you wanted to make the arguement that we spend every $ we can to be as good as we can then that would be a pretty weak arguement IMO.

 

[BACH]

I agree the Bidwills aren't cheap anymore. I do think you can argue that the team has chosen to take the approach of build to next year instead of go for it now.

For example my ranting last year that we should try to get Lamont Jordan before the trade deadline. Now obviously given what jordan got as a FA I would assume that Graves and Green knew he wanted big money and that trading for him would be a mistake because they didn't want to pony up for that contract. But my argument then was that the difference between and aging Emmitt and a young stud like Jordan could have been enough to put us in the playoffs last year. You look at the 2 49er losses and some other games and I gotta believe he could have been the difference in 2-3 games.

But Green is choosing to build the foundation for the future instead of take on a guy who will demand a big raise. Doesn't mean he's wrong, just means that there are different ways to build it. To me making that big deal (Jordan last year, Surtain this year) that might push you over the top into the playoffs then gives you more leverage in FA, but to Green he doesn't seem to believe in FA for key talent, he thinks he can get that in the draft. So far hard to argue he's wrong he's had 2 strong drafts.

MB, RG and DG are all big supportes of the "Philly-Model". Build the team through the draft and never spend big money on older FAs.

I agree with this strategy, because in a couple of years when the Chiefs release Surtain they'll take a pretty big cap hit. We have the room for taking a hit now, but in a couple of years Dockett, Dansby, Step, Fitz, Big, Brown etc. all have to be extented.

Baltimore did the same last year. They had plenty of cash, but rather than overspending on a much needed WR, they saved the money for this season, where more WRs were available in FA.

 

[Russ Smith]

Baltimore did the same last year. They had plenty of cash, but rather than overspending on a much needed WR, they saved the money for this season, where more WRs were available in FA.

Could have sworn they traded for TO last year with the full intent of giving him a fat new contract.

I know what you mean though, just that Baltimore did it because TO screwed up the trade, they had every intention of spending that money on a WR, TO just messed it all up.

 

[BACH]

Could have sworn they traded for TO last year with the full intent of giving him a fat new contract.

I know what you mean though, just that Baltimore did it because TO screwed up the trade, they had every intention of spending that money on a WR, TO just messed it all up.

Yep, but when they failed at getting TO they didn't go out and spend money on some 2nd tier WR.

 

[D-Dogg]

Pete Kendall sucks.

 

[BigDavis75]

MB, RG and DG are all big supportes of the "Philly-Model". Build the team through the draft and never spend big money on older FAs.

I agree with this strategy, because in a couple of years when the Chiefs release Surtain they'll take a pretty big cap hit. We have the room for taking a hit now, but in a couple of years Dockett, Dansby, Step, Fitz, Big, Brown etc. all have to be extented.

Baltimore did the same last year. They had plenty of cash, but rather than overspending on a much needed WR, they saved the money for this season, where more WRs were available in FA.

It's actually the Pittsburgh model of running a team. They have been doing it for years and rarely get big name free agents. They consistently build and win through the draft.

 

[BACH]

It's actually the Pittsburgh model of running a team. They have been doing it for years and rarely get big name free agents. They consistently build and win through the draft.

It's named the Philly Model, because the Eagles were the first team to come up with a cap strategy. The Eagles have been one of the best teams for five years straight, but never had cap problems. The Steelers, while building through the draft, have to release players or let their star players go regularly.