Spurs @ Suns 10-31-18

[Yuma]

I have a couple thoughts regarding this whole thread.

So lack of energy seems to be the main thing we are worried about. I think some of the apperance, but not all, is guys playing slower because they don't know what they are doing well enough to play fast.

The talent level on this team is no where near the top teams we have played. When we are talking about TJ starting depletes the second team, that tells you how weak the second team is. We have no real comparable depth to the top teams.

My last thought is for a long time we draft guys and they look pretty good in their first years. Len regressed. Chriss looked good his first year, regressed. Bender really did look better early on, and regressed. JJ looked good over the second half of last season, has regressed. Only Booker and TJ have improved their games despite our coaching. I have long thought one of our franchise weknesses lately is developing talent, or the inability to do so. Seems like we get some guys who have talent, but they get WORSE as time goes on. Not better.

 

[Hoop Head]

Saw a stat about our energy, in the 6 consecutive losses, the Suns are 69-75 in the 38:32 mins played before the 1st sub is made. In the remaining 105:28 minutes before halftime, the score is 213-326. That's from the 7 Seconds or Less podcast and says a lot about our depth and energy.

 

[Errntknght]

I wanted Fox over Jackson - mainly because he'd given Lonzo fits, I must admit. During the season Fox didn't start out very well so I was glad we'd taken Josh. He's been much better this year and Jackson... I don't need to finish that thought..

To tell the truth Josh's D has been a bit better than I expected but the main reason is that I thought he was a pretty crappy defender when we drafted him.

 

[Yuma]

Saw a stat about our energy, in the 6 consecutive losses, the Suns are 69-75 in the 38:32 mins played before the 1st sub is made. In the remaining 105:28 minutes before halftime, the score is 213-326. That's from the 7 Seconds or Less podcast and says a lot about our depth and energy.

Our depth sucks! Hell our starting five aint that great either. I have looked at SA, GS, heck everyone we have played. Aside from having youth on our roster, our talent level is not that comparable to other teams. I am hoping Sarver looked at it this way when he fired McD.

 

[Hoop Head]

Our depth sucks! Hell our starting five aint that great either. I have looked at SA, GS, heck everyone we have played. Aside from having youth on our roster, our talent level is not that comparable to other teams. I am hoping Sarver looked at it this way when he fired McD.

We have D'Antoni style roster, 7 guys worth playing at most. Booker, Warren, Ayton, Jackson, Bridges, and maybe Canaan. I'd include Ariza in there also but he's lost his spot since he's clearly coasting. That barely gives us 5 guys worth starting, let alone playing. Ayton, Booker, and Warren are the only players I'm confident would be in rotations across the league. You used to be able to say that the Suns would be a playoff team if they were in the East but we're not even that bad anymore, we're worse.

I know Canaan hasn't been great and some might argue with his inclusion but he's played hard while he's been on the floor and has played well to a certain degree. It would be ideal if we only needed him for 15-20 minutes a game rather than 30 minutes but it is what it is.

 

[Yuma]

We have D'Antoni style roster, 7 guys worth playing at most. Booker, Warren, Ayton, Jackson, Bridges, and maybe Canaan. I'd include Ariza in there also but he's lost his spot since he's clearly coasting. That barely gives us 5 guys worth starting, let alone playing. Ayton, Booker, and Warren are the only players I'm confident would be in rotations across the league. You used to be able to say that the Suns would be a playoff team if they were in the East but we're not even that bad anymore, we're worse.

I know Canaan hasn't been great and some might argue with his inclusion but he's played hard while he's been on the floor and has played well to a certain degree. It would be ideal if we only needed him for 15-20 minutes a game rather than 30 minutes but it is what it is.

That's what I have been alluding to, by saying you have to have more talent than your competitors. We arguably fell behind other Western Conference teams even adding Ayton and Bridges. Our GM needed to try and get ahead of the other teams in talent. The depth we had is seemingly not so great.

 

[Hoop Head]

That's what I have been alluding to, by saying you have to have more talent than your competitors. We arguably fell behind other Western Conference teams even adding Ayton and Bridges. Our GM needed to try and get ahead of the other teams in talent. The depth we had is seemingly not so great.

Blowing our entire cap space on a player who appears to be coasting was such a big mistake that I think that signing alone should have been cause for firing McD. I know a lot of us managed to convince ourselves, and each other, that it was a positive move but it has been worse than anyone guessed it would be. I think most believed at worst that Ariza would cause one of our wings to ask out because they weren't getting playing time. No one predicted that we should remove him from the rotation because he's given up already, just 7 games into the season. Honestly, Dudley was a better option. If we kept Dudley, paid Payton's qualifying offer, and held onto Ulis and Big Sauce, we would be in a better position today.

Ayton, Chandler, Big Sauce
Bender, Chriss, Dudley
Warren, JJ, Bridges
Booker, Daniels, Reed
Payton, Ulis, Canaan

Okobo on a two way deal, maybe? That roster doesn't look worse than what we have. I would say it has a higher upside to it also.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Blowing our entire cap space on a player who appears to be coasting was such a big mistake that I think that signing alone should have been cause for firing McD. I know a lot of us managed to convince ourselves, and each other, that it was a positive move but it has been worse than anyone guessed it would be. I think most believed at worst that Ariza would cause one of our wings to ask out because they weren't getting playing time. No one predicted that we should remove him from the rotation because he's given up already, just 7 games into the season. Honestly, Dudley was a better option. If we kept Dudley, paid Payton's qualifying offer, and held onto Ulis and Big Sauce, we would be in a better position today.

Ayton, Chandler, Big Sauce
Bender, Chriss, Dudley
Warren, JJ, Bridges
Booker, Daniels, Reed
Payton, Ulis, Canaan

Okobo on a two way deal, maybe? That roster doesn't look worse than what we have. I would say it has a higher upside to it also.

I thought it was an obvious mistake at the time. The only consolation I could find in that signing was the fact it was a one year deal and I didn't think we had any real viable targets this year anyway. But I don't agree with the idea that he isn't giving effort. I thought he was slowing down the last couple of years, to me this is just what a guy often looks like in his 15th year in the NBA.

 

[Yuma]

Ayton, Chandler, Big Sauce
Bender, Chriss, Dudley
Warren, JJ, Bridges
Booker, Daniels, Reed
Payton, Ulis, Canaan

So the problem is Knight isn't listed. To get rid of Knight, I am sure they wanted Chriss. So we get Anderson and Melton.

Hey I agree with everything else. I am really sad we don't develop guys like Len, Chriss, Bender, etc. These guys are really young, too. Almost too young to give up on. I am almost certain Ayton, Len at Center would be better than Ayton, Chandler but we are saddled with an old guy and a big contract. Lots of bad dominoes set up by McD. Why do the SA Spurs have guys they seemingly develop? I know supposedly their scouting is better. But they take guys literally universally rated lower than some of our picks, and they end up better. How? Probably a better player development program. Hey the Suns have been legendary in their rehab staff. Just some franchises are better at some things than others. Why would you not look at how the SPurs develop their guys. We tried learning that with Earl Watson. Nope. Now Igor. We need to come up with a system, draft players that fit that system, and develop their skills to mesh with that system. Top down baby. Just seems we need to find the guy to get this all started. GM or coach, someone we need to find to change our direction for decades.

 

[Hoop Head]

So the problem is Knight isn't listed. To get rid of Knight, I am sure they wanted Chriss. So we get Anderson and Melton.

I didn't realize I left Knight out but he could have been bought out like many thought he could be, or should be. If the best we could do was dump him with Chriss for Melton & Anderson, I'm not sure that's the right move. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. If we had Payton still then a Knight buyout would have been one of the talking points headed into the preseason instead of "Can Knight be a decent starting PG?". Without Ariza, Anderson still looks bad but maybe not quite as bad. He did only cost Knight and Chriss, and if Melton pans out that's a big plus.

 

[elindholm]

Fox just went off for 30/15/10

What would the Suns look like with him instead of JJ right now?

I can't claim that I wanted Fox over Jackson. But, Fox's draft interview impressed me so much that I was immediately confident that he'd turn out pretty well.

 

[Mainstreet]

I didn't realize I left Knight out but he could have been bought out like many thought he could be, or should be. If the best we could do was dump him with Chriss for Melton & Anderson, I'm not sure that's the right move. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. If we had Payton still then a Knight buyout would have been one of the talking points headed into the preseason instead of "Can Knight be a decent starting PG?". Without Ariza, Anderson still looks bad but maybe not quite as bad. He did only cost Knight and Chriss, and if Melton pans out that's a big plus.

How about the Suns pay Payton ($3M) and Len ($4.3M) and have about $8M left over.

The Suns signed Ariza for $15M in free agency.

 

[Hoop Head]

How about the Suns pay Payton ($3M) and Len ($4.3M) and have about $8M left over.

The Suns signed Ariza for $15M in free agency.

While nice in theory, I don't think we could have signed Payton for what he got from the Pelicans. Since he was our free agent, restricted free agent, we would have needed to extend the qualifying offer and then try to negotiate a long team deal or let him walk. I can't see a player resigning with a team that rescinds the qualifying offer. I don't think that's ever happened before. He wasn't worth the $7.5 million or so that would have cost also. We might have gotten him to take less annually but we would have needed to make it up in the length. Something like a 3 year deal for $13 or $14 million. Let him test the market, see there is nothing out there, and he can gamble on taking the qualifying offer and earning more next year or take the long term deal we offered. I can't see us signing him unless we paid him more than the qualifying offer for at least 2 years though, something around $4-5 million a year for 3, maybe 4, years. I don't think that would have been awful either. It's not ideal, but it's a small deal that should be tradable since it's half the MidLevel Exception. If we stretched him after one year on a $14 million dollar 3 year deal, that would cost us a little more than $2 million a year for the next 5 years, which is much better than swallowing Knight's deal.

 

[Mainstreet]

While nice in theory, I don't think we could have signed Payton for what he got from the Pelicans. Since he was our free agent, restricted free agent, we would have needed to extend the qualifying offer and then try to negotiate a long team deal or let him walk. I can't see a player resigning with a team that rescinds the qualifying offer. I don't think that's ever happened before. He wasn't worth the $7.5 million or so that would have cost also. We might have gotten him to take less annually but we would have needed to make it up in the length. Something like a 3 year deal for $13 or $14 million. Let him test the market, see there is nothing out there, and he can gamble on taking the qualifying offer and earning more next year or take the long term deal we offered. I can't see us signing him unless we paid him more than the qualifying offer for at least 2 years though, something around $4-5 million a year for 3, maybe 4, years. I don't think that would have been awful either. It's not ideal, but it's a small deal that should be tradable since it's half the MidLevel Exception. If we stretched him after one year on a $14 million dollar 3 year deal, that would cost us a little more than $2 million a year for the next 5 years, which is much better than swallowing Knight's deal.

The math is more of an illustration of what the Suns could have in place of spending $15M for Ariza. Other players could be substituted here as well.

 

[Yuma]

If I knew Elfrid Payton was going to cahnge his hair this season, I would have signed him for more!

 

[AzStevenCal]

If I knew Elfrid Payton was going to cahnge his hair this season, I would have signed him for more!

Right after we traded for him he announced that he was probably going to have to cut his hair soon so I always thought it would be a non-issue going forward.

 

[95pro]

I always had the idea that would could donate to a cause to see if we could get him to cut his stupid arse hair

 

[Hoop Head]

I was reading Duane Rankin's write up about the Spurs loss and I'm really growing to dislike Ariza more and more. Here's a quote from him after Rankin talks about the Suns trouble giving up a lot of fast break scoring chances...

“In the half court, I think we’re pretty good defensively,” Suns forward Trevor Ariza said Tuesday. “We have long, athletic guys. Guys that have a lot of passion for playing.”

Who has passion? Who is good defensively? I'm sorry but that sounds like someone talking out his ass. It's ridiculous to say that after the last 6 games as player, and the only player not named Ayton who is averaging 30+ minutes a game also.

I hope we can unload him when we're able to trade him come December 15th. I know we won't get much of a return since he would be viewed as an expensive rental but if he doesn't push a team into the luxury tax, maybe there would be a taker.

It appears that he's been coasting since things got a little tough for him. I know he's older and has played 15 seasons but he was a good player for Houston in their playoff run. I have a hard time believing he's fallen this far this quick, especially since he looked good in preseason and the Dallas game. So when his shot is falling and we're competing, he's giving it some effort but when faced with some adversity, he crumbles.

I would seriously consider an Ariza for Knight trade, it's that bad. Unfortunately that can't be done since we'd be reacquiring Knight and a team can't do that for 1 full season after trading him away. I would consider trading him with OKC for Dennis Schroeder, who is on a Knight like contract that pays him $15.5 million this year and each of the next 2 years. If he made his final year not guaranteed, similar to Anderson made about $4 million of his salary next season non-guaranteed, I would do it. At least Schroeder is a PG.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/spo...x-suns-sixth-straight-loss-120-90/1842945002/

 

[Hoop Head]

If I knew Elfrid Payton was going to cahnge his hair this season, I would have signed him for more!

We should have offered a personal barber to our staff if we even made him an offer this last offseason. Might have been worth a shot. I can't imagine that would cost all that much and I bet all of the other players would enjoy it as sort of a "perk". It's little things like that that helped Cuban become a favorite owner of players across the league. He started springing for stupid concessions that other teams weren't and that helped make the Mavericks a "destination" of sorts.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I completely understand the dissapointment with JJ right now, but let's not start pulling out the bust label just yet. He is only 7 games into his 2nd season and even though we have been burned recently by guys regressing that doesn't mean JJ won't come around. JJ is by no means being put into a position to succeed right now as no one (JJ included) seems to have a complete grasp on what they should be doing offensively. I will at least wait until the end of this season before I start making any conclusions on whether or not JJ is a bust or if we made the wrong pick.

 

[JCSunsfan]

The things with JJ is that last year we clearly saw better play than this. He is capable. Something is wrong. He is having trouble with Igor's offense or defense or both. I have to think that whatever it is, it is solvable.

There could be personal life things going on, but it is pointless to even speculate about that stuff.

 

[leclerc]

Same old song and dance. Okobo didn't make much of his chance from what I saw (not the whole game obviously -- I made it through about the third), but I expect he'll do better next time. Melton showed us some things. His shot will drop. He looked like he should get more minutes. Jackson again, we'll just have to be patient. Bridges did some nice things. I hope the FO swings for someone who can contribute. Is a young Danny Manning available? We need more wings. No, I'm not kidding, Warren needs to come off the bench and we have no others.

 

[BC867]

Same old song and dance. Okobo didn't make much of his chance from what I saw (not the whole game obviously -- I made it through about the third), but I expect he'll do better next time. Melton showed us some things. His shot will drop. He looked like he should get more minutes. Jackson again, we'll just have to be patient. Bridges did some nice things. I hope the FO swings for someone who can contribute. Is a young Danny Manning available? We need more wings. No, I'm not kidding, Warren needs to come off the bench and we have no others.

Warren made it clear that, as the Suns second best scorer, he does not accept being demoted to the bench.

Saying he needs to come off the bench might be in the Suns best interest, but it won't be in anyone's best interest if his scoring disappears again if he is sent back, now that he is back to starting.

I hope that was part of Igor's thinking in bringing him back to the starting lineup.

 

[Yuma]

We should have offered a personal barber to our staff if we even made him an offer this last offseason. Might have been worth a shot. I can't imagine that would cost all that much and I bet all of the other players would enjoy it as sort of a "perk". It's little things like that that helped Cuban become a favorite owner of players across the league. He started springing for stupid concessions that other teams weren't and that helped make the Mavericks a "destination" of sorts.

I read an article, that aside from salaries, the Mavs jet is top of the line, hotel accomodations are always five star, the training room food is top notch, etc. At the end of the day all those things add up. No wonder guys are so loyal to the Mavs.

 

[Yuma]

Same old song and dance. Okobo didn't make much of his chance from what I saw (not the whole game obviously -- I made it through about the third), but I expect he'll do better next time. Melton showed us some things. His shot will drop. He looked like he should get more minutes. Jackson again, we'll just have to be patient. Bridges did some nice things. I hope the FO swings for someone who can contribute. Is a young Danny Manning available? We need more wings. No, I'm not kidding, Warren needs to come off the bench and we have no others.

I was watching Okobo, and on offense even though it was Canaan's night shooting, Okobo makes a lot of good cuts to the basket when he hands off to Ayton. He knows how to move without the ball to get back open. It seems he knows the idea of Igor's offense better than Canaan. I just think last night Okobo's shot wasn't dropping and Canaan's was, so you go old school and play the hot hand. Booker led the team in assists. Perhaps our best PG right now.