Status of the defensive line and the draft

[Chopper0080]

To me, this would scream "smartest guy in the room" syndrome.

Agree with this.

 

[Stout]

I don't think NFL teams are looking at this draft as being great for DT. I don't think we will look back on this draft in 2-3 years as being stacked with top DT's. And I think the guys that are very good will not be names people are throwing around now as 1st round DT's.

There's a lot of good DT's, not really any great ones, certainly no "High impact stud" guys and it's a difficult position to transition into the NFL. I think the "We must draft a DT" talk is silly. Are all 32 teams going to draft a DT?

For the first part, thank you for your fan opinion, which carries zero weight. NFL scouts and GMs don't know if there are truly any great ones or high impact studs in there. You are not on their level.

I agree that it can be a difficult position to translate into in the NFL. That speaks to taking advantage of this DT draft so we don't find ourselves bereft of young talent in a few years. Nice supporting statement for my opinion.

I think your all offense top end of the draft idea is silly. Isn't the draft process fun on message boards

 

[BirdGangThing]

For the first part, thank you for your fan opinion, which carries zero weight. NFL scouts and GMs don't know if there are truly any great ones or high impact studs in there. You are not on their level.

I agree that it can be a difficult position to translate into in the NFL. That speaks to taking advantage of this DT draft so we don't find ourselves bereft of young talent in a few years. Nice supporting statement for my opinion.

I think your all offense top end of the draft idea is silly. Isn't the draft process fun on message boards

we signed nothing but defense in free agency but it's absurd to think we'll go offense early in the draft? im down w/ anything btw - monti kinda earned that imo

 

[BritCard]

Fair but I also don't think this is a great draft for WR or OL or CB. Everything that you say about DT, IMO is mirrored at OL, WR and CB.

I also don't see anyone saying the Cardinals must draft a DT. It's more that they think Nolen, Harmon, Grant and Graham. If I were ranking DT and OT, it looks like this.

Armand Membou
Mason Graham
Will Campbell
Kenneth Grant
Walter Nolen
Derrick Harmon
Kelvin Banks
Grey Zabel

Will Johnson is another enigma for me. Dude didn't want to participate in any of the athletic testing which is an issue because athletic testing has been a key trait for top CBs. He hasn't played a full season since 2022. I worry about his long speed but maybe that matters less in Rallis's scheme. And if you don't like Johnson, the other option is Barron who is better in the slot and old. For AZ, he is redundant to Garrett Williams. After that, no other CBs in round 1 (not counting Hunter).

I agree, it is similar for other positions. The best way I can put it is a lot of guys in the top 10 would not go top 10 in a bunch of other drafts, but a lot of guys that will go in round 4 would normally go in round 2, and guys that will go in 3 would normally go in 2.

There's a lot of guys that are 8 to 5 grades, where most drafts are 10's to 3's.

I think Mason Graham goes in the teens in most drafts. I'm not even that hot on Abdul Carter. Very good player, but I think he's pick 10 in a bunch of drafts instead of top 3.

But my point being, we don't HAVE to draft D line. I don't think it's a dereliction of duty if we don't. At the same time, there are some guys in the mid rounds I really like who I would draft and I'd bump Collier to the PS and cut Nichols, but I'm not sure Monti will.

 

[Harry]

I don't think NFL teams are looking at this draft as being great for DT. I don't think we will look back on this draft in 2-3 years as being stacked with top DT's. And I think the guys that are very good will not be names people are throwing around now as 1st round DT's.

There's a lot of good DT's, not really any great ones, certainly no "High impact stud" guys and it's a difficult position to transition into the NFL. I think the "We must draft a DT" talk is silly. Are all 32 teams going to draft a DT?

I disagree. In 2 years teams that needed a DT and passed on a good one this year will regret it. For maybe the first time this century the Cards are in position to play the strength of the draft instead of being desperate to fill a hole. It’s likely correct to say not all of these guys will be great. Still the odds lean that way. You only have to look at recent drafts to see how difficult it is to find DTs who are double function. It’s also not hard to see with rushing plays on the upswing that teams must be prepared to cope with passing & running teams. These guys have that potential. I also agree with Chopper that Edges with potential are plentiful in this draft. I favor DTs because I don’t see them strong in next year’s draft, but there could be emerging surprises. I wouldn’t be heartbroken if they took an RT, considering the new line coach, especially if they traded down to do so. However, I take even money when the dealer shows an ace.

 

[BritCard]

NFL scouts and GMs don't know if there are truly any great ones or high impact studs in there.

This is my point. You're arguing for drafting a "stud DT" when nobody in this class stands out as a stud DT. There's no Jalen Carter or Quinnen Williams. I don't think Mason Graham is even guaranteed to be a stud.

Kenneth Grant has some good highlights, but when you watch his normal tape there's some bad stuff in there too.

I'd be fine with drafting iDL, it's just silly to say we HAVE to. We don't have to any more than any other position. And at the same time, I think it's highly unlikely considering we already have 7 guys the team seems to like, 5 of which are absolutely locked in.

 

[BritCard]

I disagree. In 2 years teams that needed a DT and passed on a good one this year will regret it. For maybe the first time this century the Cards are in position to play the strength of the draft instead of being desperate to fill a hole. It’s likely correct to say not all of these guys will be great. Still the odds lean that way. You only have to look at recent drafts to see how difficult it is to find DTs who are double function. It’s also not hard to see with rushing plays on the upswing that teams must be prepared to cope with passing & running teams. These guys have that potential. I also agree with Chopper that Edges with potential are plentiful in this draft. I favor DTs because I don’t see them strong in next year’s draft, but there could be emerging surprises. I wouldn’t be heartbroken if they took an RT, considering the new line coach, especially if they traded down to do so. However, I take even money when the dealer shows an ace.

Ok, but this is partly my point. This class is overhyped.

People keep talking about DT's like a bunch of these guys are sure fire studs. Grant has some major holes in his game. Mason Graham gets washed out by zone blocks and struggles against double teams. Same goes for the others, non are sure fire hits.

Analysts are cooling on it too. In consensus rankings Walter Nolen has dropped from mid teens to #29. Mason Graham is 5th. Then Grant, Harmon and Nolen are in the 20's. For a "strong DL class" only 6 are ranked in the top 50. The average is around 4, the best recently was 7 in 2019.

It's strength is in the depth of promising players but it's pretty weak at the top. Only 1 guy in the top 20 is unusual. What it has, on paper, is a lot of Mazi Smith's, Bryan Bresee, Devonte Wyatt, and Logan Hall type players. I don't think anyone would say these are studs. I think there are good odds the best DT comes out of this class in the mid rounds, like Kobee Turner did for the Rams.

 

[Chopper0080]

I agree, it is similar for other positions. The best way I can put it is a lot of guys in the top 10 would not go top 10 in a bunch of other drafts, but a lot of guys that will go in round 4 would normally go in round 2, and guys that will go in 3 would normally go in 2.

There's a lot of guys that are 8 to 5 grades, where most drafts are 10's to 3's.

I think Mason Graham goes in the teens in most drafts. I'm not even that hot on Abdul Carter. Very good player, but I think he's pick 10 in a bunch of drafts instead of top 3.

But my point being, we don't HAVE to draft D line. I don't think it's a dereliction of duty if we don't. At the same time, there are some guys in the mid rounds I really like who I would draft and I'd bump Collier to the PS and cut Nichols, but I'm not sure Monti will.

I agree they don't have to draft DT. My fan draft opinion is just that the best players at 16 tend to be DT and EDGE on my board vs WR/CB/OL. So it's less of "have to" and more of "those are the positions of he best available at 16".

 

[Chopper0080]

I disagree. In 2 years teams that needed a DT and passed on a good one this year will regret it. For maybe the first time this century the Cards are in position to play the strength of the draft instead of being desperate to fill a hole. It’s likely correct to say not all of these guys will be great. Still the odds lean that way. You only have to look at recent drafts to see how difficult it is to find DTs who are double function. It’s also not hard to see with rushing plays on the upswing that teams must be prepared to cope with passing & running teams. These guys have that potential. I also agree with Chopper that Edges with potential are plentiful in this draft. I favor DTs because I don’t see them strong in next year’s draft, but there could be emerging surprises. I wouldn’t be heartbroken if they took an RT, considering the new line coach, especially if they traded down to do so. However, I take even money when the dealer shows an ace.

I used the laugh emoji on your post because of the even money comment.

 

[Chopper0080]

Ok, but this is partly my point. This class is overhyped.

People keep talking about DT's like a bunch of these guys are sure fire studs. Grant has some major holes in his game. Mason Graham gets washed out by zone blocks and struggles against double teams. Same goes for the others, non are sure fire hits.

Analysts are cooling on it too. In consensus rankings Walter Nolen has dropped from mid teens to #29. Mason Graham is 5th. Then Grant, Harmon and Nolen are in the 20's. For a "strong DL class" only 6 are ranked in the top 50. The average is around 4, the best recently was 7 in 2019.

It's strength is in the depth of promising players but it's pretty weak at the top. Only 1 guy in the top 20 is unusual. What it has, on paper, is a lot of Mazi Smith's, Bryan Bresee, Devonte Wyatt, and Logan Hall type players. I don't think anyone would say these are studs. I think there are good odds the best DT comes out of this class in the mid rounds, like Kobee Turner did for the Rams.

Again, all of this for WR, CB and OL.

Tet looks more like another Mike Williams.

Matthew Golden looks like Marquise Brown or maybe Jordan Addison but not at 1 or 1B WR.

Is Will Johnson Eric Stokes or Marshon Lattimore? I don't really know.

Is Kevin Banks more Alex Leatherwood or Elijah Vera Tucker? He looks like it to me.

And if all of these positions are a toss up, I would rather gamble on a defensive front player than a RT or WR2. Those are much easier to find year over year IMO.

 

[Krangodnzr]

EDGE, IMO, has the highest ceiling.

I agree. Mirroring what @BritCard said, I'm kind of underwhelmed by the top quality of the DT class. Is the first round group good? Sure, but none of them look like great players (maybe Graham).

The edge group has a few guys that I could see being double digit sack guys. I'll give Monti credit for restacking the DL room and the Edge room isn't a dumpster fire like it was a few years ago, but I think he could draft a 1st round player at either group (DL or Edge).

I like Mike Green a lot (character issues aside) and I really like Jalon Walker a lot too. Walker has played well on the Edge and at off the ball. His traits suggest he could be a lot better if you find a spot and just stick him there. After hearing about Shemar Stewart's run grades, I wouldn't touch him with a fifty foot pole if you also consider the paltry 4.5 sacks.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I disagree. In 2 years teams that needed a DT and passed on a good one this year will regret it. For maybe the first time this century the Cards are in position to play the strength of the draft instead of being desperate to fill a hole. It’s likely correct to say not all of these guys will be great. Still the odds lean that way. You only have to look at recent drafts to see how difficult it is to find DTs who are double function. It’s also not hard to see with rushing plays on the upswing that teams must be prepared to cope with passing & running teams. These guys have that potential. I also agree with Chopper that Edges with potential are plentiful in this draft. I favor DTs because I don’t see them strong in next year’s draft, but there could be emerging surprises. I wouldn’t be heartbroken if they took an RT, considering the new line coach, especially if they traded down to do so. However, I take even money when the dealer shows an ace.

Always.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Again, all of this for WR, CB and OL.

Tet looks more like another Mike Williams.

Matthew Golden looks like Marquise Brown or maybe Jordan Addison but not at 1 or 1B WR.

Is Will Johnson Eric Stokes or Marshon Lattimore? I don't really know.

Is Kevin Banks more Alex Leatherwood or Elijah Vera Tucker? He looks like it to me.

And if all of these positions are a toss up, I would rather gamble on a defensive front player than a RT or WR2. Those are much easier to find year over year IMO.

I do agree with you here, but the reason that Golden is tempting is that I think the step down in tiers is pretty drastic for WR in this class. With DL/Edge, there are day two guys I like. I'd go crazy if the Cardinals pulled out Josiah Stewart later in the draft.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I do agree with you here, but the reason that Golden is tempting is that I think the step down in tiers is pretty drastic for WR in this class. With DL/Edge, there are day two guys I like. I'd go crazy if the Cardinals pulled out Josiah Stewart later in the draft.

We've also painted ourselves in a corner at WR...I expect MHJ to be a good WR, but maybe mid tier-1? Every other WR on our roster looks like JAG, and not having another credible threat at WR makes life more difficult for MHJ/McBride.

 

[Krangodnzr]

We've also painted ourselves in a corner at WR...I expect MHJ to be a good WR, but maybe mid tier-1? Every other WR on our roster looks like JAG, and not having another credible threat at WR makes life more difficult for MHJ/McBride.

I think the Cardinals have a collection of NFL players at WR, but are missing a dynamic down field type WR. Harrison can occasionally do this but the Cardinals need a true #2 WR to really open up the passing game.

 

[Chopper0080]

We've also painted ourselves in a corner at WR...I expect MHJ to be a good WR, but maybe mid tier-1? Every other WR on our roster looks like JAG, and not having another credible threat at WR makes life more difficult for MHJ/McBride.

I have very few concerns with MHJ but I get I may be in the minority.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I have very little concerns with MHJ but I get I may be in the minority.

I think the biggest disappointment for many of us is that all signs pointed to him being NFL ready to hit the ground running, and he mostly played like a rookie. In addition, he was definitely not the dog that I thought he would be in terms of physicality/fighting for the ball/coming down with contested catches.

I still expect him to be a very good WR, just not sure he has it in him to be a Larry Fitz type HOF player.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I have very little concerns with MHJ but I get I may be in the minority.

I don't either. Did he light the world on fire? No, but he showed enough that I think with even incremental improvement, we'll see a really good WR soon enough.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I think the biggest disappointment for many of us is that all signs pointed to him being NFL ready to hit the ground running, and he mostly played like a rookie. In addition, he was definitely not the dog that I thought he would be in terms of physicality/fighting for the ball/coming down with contested catches.

I still expect him to be a very good WR, just not sure he has it in him to be a Larry Fitz type HOF player.

Harrison wasn't a dog, fighting for the ball in college. Remember when I said that REPEATEDLY before the draft?

 

[BritCard]

I feel like the odds of drafting at #16 is lower than drafting elsewhere. I don't know if it will be up or down, but I think it will be one of them.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Harrison wasn't a dog, fighting for the ball in college. Remember when I said that REPEATEDLY before the draft?

Ha, nope. He apparently wasn't breaking any tackles either.

 

[Stout]

we signed nothing but defense in free agency but it's absurd to think we'll go offense early in the draft? im down w/ anything btw - monti kinda earned that imo

Not absurd to think we WILL, but it would be absurd to go ALL offense in rds 1-3.

 

[Stout]

I agree, it is similar for other positions. The best way I can put it is a lot of guys in the top 10 would not go top 10 in a bunch of other drafts, but a lot of guys that will go in round 4 would normally go in round 2, and guys that will go in 3 would normally go in 2.

There's a lot of guys that are 8 to 5 grades, where most drafts are 10's to 3's.

I think Mason Graham goes in the teens in most drafts. I'm not even that hot on Abdul Carter. Very good player, but I think he's pick 10 in a bunch of drafts instead of top 3.

But my point being, we don't HAVE to draft D line. I don't think it's a dereliction of duty if we don't. At the same time, there are some guys in the mid rounds I really like who I would draft and I'd bump Collier to the PS and cut Nichols, but I'm not sure Monti will.

Wow, Steve Keim, is that you?

 

[Chopper0080]

I feel like the odds of drafting at #16 is lower than drafting elsewhere. I don't know if it will be up or down, but I think it will be one of them.

It does feel like no man's land for the Cardinals.

 

[Chopper0080]

Wow, Steve Keim, is that you?

Just to play devil's advocate, if there is not a player available at 16 that Monti ranks as worthy of a top 16 selection, would you rather he stay and reach for a player, or move back and add a pick?

I say this because I do think it is a possibility. Also why I hope he considers trading up.