Stephen Hunter Update

haverford

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He's the guy I worry about missing more than JJ or Q. Arguably he fit our system better than he will Philly's. I still don't get why he was so expendable:

Against Milwaukee:

MP 35:01 FGM/FGA 4-7 FTM/FTA 3-4 REB 4 TO 1 BS 3 Total points 11

Against Detroit:

MP 30:04 FGM/FGA 3-7 FTM/FTA 0-1 REB 5 TO 0 BS 2 Total points 6


Pretty solid.
 

Amare32

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Still feel Brian Grant will be just as soild as Hunt was.
 
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haverford

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Amare32 said:
Still feel Brian Grant will be just as soild as Hunt was.

I hope, but Grant will not be getting 5 blocked shots in two games. Nor will he be playing 65 minutes over two games.
 

Yuma

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Hunter 3 for 5 from the FT line? Stop the season! :D
 

scotsman13

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how many offensive fouls did hunter draw? grant got 3 in his first game and in the time he was on the floor did very well on team defense. something i have never seen out of hunter.
 

myrondizzo

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its not that he was expendable but we just couldnt offer him anything. we were over the raja got most of the mle. that only left the lle and he got waaaay mor than that so there wasnt anyway for us to keep him.
 

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haverford said:
He's the guy I worry about missing more than JJ or Q. Arguably he fit our system better than he will Philly's. I still don't get why he was so expendable:

Against Milwaukee:

MP 35:01 FGM/FGA 4-7 FTM/FTA 3-4 REB 4 TO 1 BS 3 Total points 11

Against Detroit:

MP 30:04 FGM/FGA 3-7 FTM/FTA 0-1 REB 5 TO 0 BS 2 Total points 6


Pretty solid.

Does that say 11 points, 4 rebounds in 35 minutes and 6 points, 5 rebounds in 30 minutes? If so, I would say that those aren't solid numbers at all--maybe the 11 points, but he shouldn't be getting low rebounding numbers like that in all that time. 9 rebounds in 65 minutes? That's NOT good.
 
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haverford

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myrondizzo said:
its not that he was expendable but we just couldnt offer him anything. we were over the raja got most of the mle. that only left the lle and he got waaaay mor than that so there wasnt anyway for us to keep him.


Yeah, I knew there was some esoteric financial stuff. Question is, was there a way to keep him that involved another hard choice? Or, at least keeping him for less than Philly offered him? Perhaps unanswerable questions, but they go maybe to the philosophy of the team historically (big men are not worth it, because they lack certain kinds of skills)...
 
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haverford

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Chaplin said:
Does that say 11 points, 4 rebounds in 35 minutes and 6 points, 5 rebounds in 30 minutes? If so, I would say that those aren't solid numbers at all--maybe the 11 points, but he shouldn't be getting low rebounding numbers like that in all that time. 9 rebounds in 65 minutes? That's NOT good.


Solid, not good. And certainly, not bad.

I am looking in particular at the blocked shots, which in my mind at least, have a kind of multiplier effect on the tenor of the game.
 

thegrahamcrackr

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haverford said:
Yeah, I knew there was some esoteric financial stuff. Question is, was there a way to keep him that involved another hard choice?


Sure, but we would not have been able to get Raja Bell.
 
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haverford

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thegrahamcrackr said:
Sure, but we would not have been able to get Raja Bell.

Yes, exactly, that's my point. Perhaps the Suns are too conservative in stockpiling "safe" talent at the guards and small forwards, and not risk-taking enough with the big men. Counter examples can certainly be found (Tsakalidis, e.g.), but it's something to consider, and one hopes, not to regret....
 

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haverford said:
Solid, not good. And certainly, not bad.

I am looking in particular at the blocked shots, which in my mind at least, have a kind of multiplier effect on the tenor of the game.

Aah, I thought about the blocked shots, but to me, especially with Steven Hunter, blocked shots don't mean a whole hell of a lot. Blocking 2 shots by Steven Hunter won't scare the opposition as much as a lot of people like to think. At least Dalembert is a big body and can intimidate. Hunter can't. I'd also be interested in finding out how many of Hunter's blocks were on his own man, or if he came over from the weak side.
 

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haverford said:
Yes, exactly, that's my point. Perhaps the Suns are too conservative in stockpiling "safe" talent at the guards and small forwards, and not risk-taking enough with the big men. Counter examples can certainly be found (Tsakalidis, e.g.), but it's something to consider, and one hopes, not to regret....

Those numbers, even if you believe he'll stay consistent, still aren't good enough to justify how much money he wanted.
 

elindholm

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Hunter played heavy minutes in each of the first two games, totalling five blocked shots and very little else. What are the Suns missing exactly?

I didn't watch either game, but his meager rebounding numbers suggest that he wasn't doing his share of work on the glass. Is it worth suffering a rebounding disadvantage the entire game in order to get a blocked shot every 15 minutes? I wouldn't think so.
 

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Chaplin said:
Those numbers, even if you believe he'll stay consistent, still aren't good enough to justify how much money he wanted.
I agree. The rebounding numbers are probably one of the reasons we didn't go all out to get him back. We could have made trades or done whatever it took if he was warranted to be here long term. He didn't rebound with us either. Plus he couldn't shoot the open jumper that well. Thus the franchise feeling the need to bring KT in. He might have been a nice guy to have, but KT is a better starter than Hunter at this point.

I don't lose any sleep that we didn't resign him. :D
 
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haverford

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elindholm said:
Hunter played heavy minutes in each of the first two games, totalling five blocked shots and very little else. What are the Suns missing exactly?

I didn't watch either game, but his meager rebounding numbers suggest that he wasn't doing his share of work on the glass. Is it worth suffering a rebounding disadvantage the entire game in order to get a blocked shot every 15 minutes? I wouldn't think so.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree then. I don't think I'd call his minutes "heavy," for one thing. Granted he wasn't a good rebounder for us either. But my memory of the import of Hunter's shot blocking prowess is that it was significant for us last year, winning a game or two (and maybe even more) outright. Plus, his defense on Garnett is, absent almost any other set of skills, worth a lot.
 

Amare32

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How much did Hunter get paid again? 20 million

I will take BG with the LLE than rather overpay for someone who doesn't even do as good a team in the paint or on man to man defense. Hunter is a good shot blocker but doesn't do alot else. At least Grant takes up space and is a presents inside.
 

elindholm

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But my memory of the import of Hunter's shot blocking prowess is that it was significant for us last year, winning a game or two (and maybe even more) outright.

It never makes sense to say that a particular player or play wins a game. The whole team is involved in the effort to get to that point. Hunter's shortcomings on offense and rebounding made it harder for the Suns to get in a position to win. Sometimes his shot-blocking made up for that weakness, and other times it didn't.

Plus, his defense on Garnett is, absent almost any other set of skills, worth a lot.

Why? The Suns will play the Wolves only three times this season. Even if having Hunter would be the difference between going 3-0 and 0-3 in those games -- which of course is absurd -- it's still only three games.

Also, your memory of Hunter's defensive efforts might be a little selective. In the Minnesota/Phoenix games last season, here's what happened:

December 3, Wolves win 97-93 in Phoenix. Garnett 23 points, 19 rebounds, 8 assists. Hunter 7 minutes, 1 rebound, 2 blocks.

January 4, Suns win 122-114 in Minnesota. Garnett 47 points (career high), 17 rebounds, 4 assists. Hunter 23 minutes, 1 rebound, 2 blocks, 6 fouls.

February 2, Suns win 108-79 in Minnesota. Garnett 12 points, 13 rebounds. Hunter 19 minutes, 7 rebounds, 2 blocks.

April 1, Suns win 107-98 in Phoenix. Garnett 15 points, 15 rebounds. Hunter 15 minutes, 3 rebounds, zero blocks.

So in the three Suns victories, it appears that Hunter's defense of Garnett was a factor in at most one of them, the April 1 game. On January 4, Garnett did anything he wanted and the Suns won anyway. On February 2, Garnett had a bad game, but the Wolves got crushed, and would have lost even if Garnett had gone for 35. The April 1 game was fairly close and Garnett's being held in check may have been a factor, although it is worth noting that Hunter was on the floor for less than 1/3 of the game.

The bottom line is that Hunter is not a difference-maker, and the Suns were not going to pay him like one.
 

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haverford said:
I guess we'll just agree to disagree then. I don't think I'd call his minutes "heavy," for one thing.


Well these are the heaviest minutes he will see all season. 32mpg is what a starting caliber player plays in the NBA. Hell, people worry that Nash plays too much, and he is right around that number.

Hunter will get at most 20 minutes once Daly is healthy.
 
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haverford

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elindholm said:

It never makes sense to say that a particular player or play wins a game. The whole team is involved in the effort to get to that point. Hunter's shortcomings on offense and rebounding made it harder for the Suns to get in a position to win. Sometimes his shot-blocking made up for that weakness, and other times it didn't.


Makes sense? I don't want to get into an "angels on the head of a pin" dispute about causation here. 99.9% of the discussion here is speculative, or else weirdly correlated observations that can be dismissed as nonsensical by any number of scientific measures. I seem to remember, though I could be wrong, a tall man named Stephen Hunter securing a win at the end of a game with a blocked shot. My wife tells me I'm losing my memory, but I'm pretty sure it was Hunter and not, say, the "cummulatively winning efforts that contributed to the amalgam that is the Suns" that was Bo Outlaw. Hunter blocked a crucial shot to help us win a game. The sentence has great meaning.
:p

On the Garnett stuff--you scorched me, what can I say. It sure seemed like Garnett had difficulty against Hunter. Maybe the Hunter/Amare combo is what made Hunter better in my memory. Then again, maybe my wife is right.....
 

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haverford said:
Makes sense? I don't want to get into an "angels on the head of a pin" dispute about causation here. 99.9% of the discussion here is speculative, or else weirdly correlated observations that can be dismissed as nonsensical by any number of scientific measures. I seem to remember, though I could be wrong, a tall man named Stephen Hunter securing a win at the end of a game with a blocked shot. My wife tells me I'm losing my memory, but I'm pretty sure it was Hunter and not, say, the "cummulatively winning efforts that contributed to the amalgam that is the Suns" that was Bo Outlaw. Hunter blocked a crucial shot to help us win a game. The sentence has great meaning.
:p

On the Garnett stuff--you scorched me, what can I say. It sure seemed like Garnett had difficulty against Hunter. Maybe the Hunter/Amare combo is what made Hunter better in my memory. Then again, maybe my wife is right.....


You may have hit on something there--one of the best endings to any game last year was actually AMARE blocking Brad Miller at the end of a Sac game.

And Steven Hunter playing 32 minutes a game is absolutely heavy minutes. Like Andy said, that is starter minutes, and he never got those minutes while on the Suns, and his stats were no better than when he only got 12 minutes per.
 

elindholm

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I wrote "heavy minutes" only as a way to say, "He's getting good playing time." I wasn't trying to imply that he wasn't up to it or that he'll break down if he continues to play that much. Originally I wrote "major minutes," but I thought it sounded stupid.
 

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elindholm said:
I wrote "heavy minutes" only as a way to say, "He's getting good playing time." I wasn't trying to imply that he wasn't up to it or that he'll break down if he continues to play that much. Originally I wrote "major minutes," but I thought it sounded stupid.

Don't tell that to Lieutenant Seconds.
 

elindholm

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Don't tell that to Lieutenant Seconds.

Heh!

That reminds me of the MASH episode where B. J. and Charles are calling each other names right as Potter walks in. Overhearing their exchange, he says, "Greetings, Captain Boob, Major Idiot." Classic.
 
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