Steve Keim on the Herd today

[Cbus cardsfan]

I think Arians ran a lot of roster decisions during his time here. Keim hired Wilks (maybe) then hired Kliff (probably). Both decisions were… sub optimal.

Keim basically got the average result from a qb on a rookie deal and used that to springboard into this season’s disaster.

Can’t disagree with this. That’s why I think it was time.
I’m just not going to say the guy was terrible and so on when he put together some pretty good teams.

Calling Wilkes and Kliff, sub- optimal is funny. They were terrible hires.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Can’t disagree with this. That’s why I think it was time.
I’m just not going to say the guy was terrible and so on when he put together some pretty good teams.

Calling Wilkes and Kliff, sub- optimal is funny. They were terrible hires.

Calling Wilks a terrible hire, sure no problem. He deserved that title.
Kliff went 5 to 8 to 11 wins his first three years. A terrible coach can't do that. You want to call him below average, I can get behind that.

 

[Stout]

So you have an unhappy superstar QB in 2022 and a guy trying to earn a deal on a fifth-year option this year? That's a recipe for an extremely dramatic and explosive situation.

Kyler had the franchise over a barrel last year. No two ways about it.

I was very clearly the stupid thing to do. I said it well in advance. Surprise surprise, we had an unmotivated QB who hadn't earned the money thinking his ish didn't stink and not putting in the required work and who subsequently sucked. The franchise absolutely collapsed and gave him all he wanted. Bad choice.

 

[Stout]

Nah, nope, no way. Given hindsight of course. There was a debate to be had and it was discussed ad nauseum here.

Absolutely not. It is not hindsight when I call it stupid well in advance of the deal, and it indeed turns out to be stupid. Don't even try to call hindsight on it.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Absolutely not. It is not hindsight when I call it stupid well in advance of the deal, and it indeed turns out to be stupid. Don't even try to call hindsight on it.

Just because you called it stupid doesn't mean that there wasn't a debate AND you were right without hindsight. Again, there were plenty of reasons TO sign Kyler when they did, even if you didn't agree with it.

 

[Stout]

Just because you called it stupid doesn't mean that there wasn't a debate AND you were right without hindsight. Again, there were plenty of reasons TO sign Kyler when they did, even if you didn't agree with it.

Oh, okay, gotcha. I thought you were calling my opinion hindsight. My bad, then.

There was a ton of debate. The reasoning broke down to we have to because we don't want to huwt his poow wittle feewings. Those feelings could have used some hurting, IMO, and he finally seems like he's been humbled. As had to happen. You don't humble an entitled young man by rewarding him with all the riches in the land before he's earned them.

He was under team control for a number of years and there wasn't a hurry from that angle to get the deal done. It was very much wanting to keep him happy. That backfired spectacularly. The coach shares a lot of blame, and especially Keim, who should have seen that lame-duck coach plus entitled QB plus subpar roster would equate to disaster. Poor decisions all around.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I wasn’t in favor of the extension at all. But I get, somewhat, why they did it.

The best thing that can happen to the Cards is that he comes back and plays at a high level.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Oh, okay, gotcha. I thought you were calling my opinion hindsight. My bad, then.

There was a ton of debate. The reasoning broke down to we have to because we don't want to huwt his poow wittle feewings. Those feelings could have used some hurting, IMO, and he finally seems like he's been humbled. As had to happen. You don't humble an entitled young man by rewarding him with all the riches in the land before he's earned them.

He was under team control for a number of years and there wasn't a hurry from that angle to get the deal done. It was very much wanting to keep him happy. That backfired spectacularly. The coach shares a lot of blame, and especially Keim, who should have seen that lame-duck coach plus entitled QB plus subpar roster would equate to disaster. Poor decisions all around.

There were plenty of financial reasons from the front office perspective to do it too, but yeah you do you.

 

[DaHilg]

Calling Wilks a terrible hire, sure no problem. He deserved that title.
Kliff went 5 to 8 to 11 wins his first three years. A terrible coach can't do that. You want to call him below average, I can get behind that.

Actually a terrible coach can do that…over 80% of the time when QB is selected #1 overall the team makes the playoffs within 3 years. Surely we don’t believe 80% of them have been because of good coaching, but rather selecting a franchise/relevant QB #1 overall.

 

[Covert Rain]

I heard this interview. He was in full media mode acting like he wasn't a huge part of this mess.

 

[oaken1]

Oh, okay, gotcha. I thought you were calling my opinion hindsight. My bad, then.

There was a ton of debate. The reasoning broke down to we have to because we don't want to huwt his poow wittle feewings. Those feelings could have used some hurting, IMO, and he finally seems like he's been humbled. As had to happen. You don't humble an entitled young man by rewarding him with all the riches in the land before he's earned them.

He was under team control for a number of years and there wasn't a hurry from that angle to get the deal done. It was very much wanting to keep him happy. That backfired spectacularly. The coach shares a lot of blame, and especially Keim, who should have seen that lame-duck coach plus entitled QB plus subpar roster would equate to disaster. Poor decisions all around.

Keim was also fighting public opinion on poverty/welfare franchise... it was a no win situation...the only chance to win was to make kyler play out his contract and a franchise tag to prove it...then get him to actually sign with us if he did.
Keim took the easier gamble, pay up, stop the cheap talk, and hope kyler grows up.
Remains to be seen.

 

[Stout]

There were plenty of financial reasons from the front office perspective to do it too, but yeah you do you.

Financially it was also a poor decision, because instead of financially-controlled and financially-friendly years, we paid him the big bucks. What financial reasons compelled us to do the contract?

 

[Stout]

Keim was also fighting public opinion on poverty/welfare franchise... it was a no win situation...the only chance to win was to make kyler play out his contract and a franchise tag to prove it...then get him to actually sign with us if he did.
Keim took the easier gamble, pay up, stop the cheap talk, and hope kyler grows up.
Remains to be seen.

We never would have had to get to the franchise tag if he had proven out. If he proved out last season? Good, give him the big deal after then. Since he didn't, we'd still be sitting pretty right now if we hadn't preemptively rewarded him, with all the leverage in the situation.

 

[Dayman]

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[dreamcastrocks]

Financially it was also a poor decision, because instead of financially-controlled and financially-friendly years, we paid him the big bucks. What financial reasons compelled us to do the contract?

In hindsight, sure. If he became the MVP last year for example, his price would have gone through the roof. He made marked improvements his first 3 years in the league. It wouldn't have been a stretch to see that happen another year in a row. Of course MVP is a stretch, but it proves a point. But it wasn't like he wasn't in the MVP discussion the first half of the year 2 years ago.

If we let him play out his last year and if he even if he only stayed course and been a top 5-10QB in the league, the price jumps at least 5M per year or more. The earlier you sign players you determine to be a core player, the more money you save. That isn't a crazy concept at all.

 

[Stout]

In hindsight, sure. If he became the MVP last year for example, his price would have gone through the roof. He made marked improvements his first 3 years in the league. It wouldn't have been a stretch to see that happen another year in a row. Of course MVP is a stretch, but it proves a point. But it wasn't like he wasn't in the MVP discussion the first half of the year 2 years ago.

If we let him play out his last year and if he even if he only stayed course and been a top 5-10QB in the league, the price jumps at least 5M per year or more. The earlier you sign players you determine to be a core player, the more money you save. That isn't a crazy concept at all.

I'll give you the "in hindsight" in this instance. From my perspective, I didn't see him improving enough to warrant that contract, and was proven correct, but it could've gone the other way. And, sure, the earlier you lock down core players, the more money you save; I remember when some thought the Mahomes contract was crazy and now he's a bargain. Problem here is, it emphatically went the other way, and reminds us as fans why locking the wrong player up early can be disastrous.

 

[RON_IN_OC]

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Here's my last word on Keim...and this is just my opinion, based on what I've observed since the end of last season...

Out of the 3 headed leadership of Keim, Kliff and Kyler, only Keim has refused to own any mistakes. Kliff fell on the sword for everyone. Kyler, thus far, has shown growth and maturity. Keim has been a whiney baby. Kyler didn't single Keim out in his interview. The fact that Keim hears the word "everyone" and thinks it only targeting him, tells me he knows he f'd up biggly, but he just can't humble himself to admit it...and slightly off-topic, but it's not an uncommon trait that I have personally witnessed in people who have substance addictions (alcohol maybe for Keim). I don't think he's truly confronted his own personal issues. Once he does, his whole attitude will likely change.

 

[Dan H]

Here's my last word on Keim...and this is just my opinion, based on what I've observed since the end of last season...

Out of the 3 headed leadership of Keim, Kliff and Kyler, only Keim has refused to own any mistakes. Kliff fell on the sword for everyone. Kyler, thus far, has shown growth and maturity. Keim has been a whiney baby. Kyler didn't single Keim out in his interview. The fact that Keim hears the word "everyone" and thinks it only targeting him, tells me he knows he f'd up biggly, but he just can't humble himself to admit it...and slightly off-topic, but it's not an uncommon trait that I have personally witnessed in people who have substance addictions (alcohol maybe for Keim). I don't think he's truly confronted his own personal issues. Once he does, his whole attitude will likely change.

Concur, there’s something about addiction and narcissism that seem to go hand in hand.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I'll give you the "in hindsight" in this instance. From my perspective, I didn't see him improving enough to warrant that contract,

If he doesn't get back to form after this injury, absolutely. If he gets back to his 2021 first half of the year form, he will not only warrant the contract, but could out play it.

But here is the problem with letting him play out one more year. Here are the options.

1. Let him play out the year. You risk losing him for nothing. You would have thought at the time that Kyler would have been worth AT LEAST what Stafford was worth. (2 first round picks and 1 3rd round pick) If he does earn a contract, you are paying 30-40M more than what his current contract is now.
2. Trade him for assets even though you just came off an 11 win season and a surprise playoff birth that ended in disaster. Even with the bad playoff game, the optics don't look good. At least you'd expect to get similar assets that Stafford got, maybe more.
3. You sign him early in the NFL year and save 30-40M on what his current contract is.
4. You sign him to the contract that he was signed at.

There's an argument that letting him play out his final year is the worst option of the 4

I remember when some thought the Mahomes contract was crazy and now he's a bargain. Problem here is, it emphatically went the other way, and reminds us as fans why locking the wrong player up early can be disastrous.

That's true, until you look at the details of the contract. He is never going to play out all 10 years of the contract. He will likely re-sign/re-negotiate at it at end of 2024. If Mahomes is still Mahomes at that time, (and there is no reason to think he wouldn't be) and his fellow QBs are making 50-60M per, I can't see any way he doesn't get another new deal.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Stout was saying this AT THE TIME.

Good grief. I loathe the “in hindsight” response to people who actually had the FORESIGHT to call the contract out as a problem when it was signed.

Stout also said just yesterday that was right WITHOUT HINDSIGHT which started this whole conversation that he later edited. He brought up hindsight, not me. I commented on it.

Good grief, keep up.

 

[Stout]

If he doesn't get back to form after this injury, absolutely. If he gets back to his 2021 first half of the year form, he will not only warrant the contract, but could out play it.

But here is the problem with letting him play out one more year. Here are the options.

1. Let him play out the year. You risk losing him for nothing. You would have thought at the time that Kyler would have been worth AT LEAST what Stafford was worth. (2 first round picks and 1 3rd round pick) If he does earn a contract, you are paying 30-40M more than what his current contract is now.
2. Trade him for assets even though you just came off an 11 win season and a surprise playoff birth that ended in disaster. Even with the bad playoff game, the optics don't look good. At least you'd expect to get similar assets that Stafford got, maybe more.
3. You sign him early in the NFL year and save 30-40M on what his current contract is.
4. You sign him to the contract that he was signed at.

There's an argument that letting him play out his final year is the worst option of the 4

That's true, until you look at the details of the contract. He is never going to play out all 10 years of the contract. He will likely re-sign/re-negotiate at it at end of 2024. If Mahomes is still Mahomes at that time, (and there is no reason to think he wouldn't be) and his fellow QBs are making 50-60M per, I can't see any way he doesn't get another new deal.

If you let him play last year on his current contract, you absolutely didn't risk coming close to losing him for nothing. We still had years--plural--of team control. Where in the heck are you getting the notion that it was his final year?

 

[BurqueCardFan]

Oh, okay, gotcha. I thought you were calling my opinion hindsight. My bad, then.

There was a ton of debate. The reasoning broke down to we have to because we don't want to huwt his poow wittle feewings. Those feelings could have used some hurting, IMO, and he finally seems like he's been humbled. As had to happen. You don't humble an entitled young man by rewarding him with all the riches in the land before he's earned them.

He was under team control for a number of years and there wasn't a hurry from that angle to get the deal done. It was very much wanting to keep him happy. That backfired spectacularly. The coach shares a lot of blame, and especially Keim, who should have seen that lame-duck coach plus entitled QB plus subpar roster would equate to disaster. Poor decisions all around.

This, 100%. I echoed this same sentiment. We controlled his rights for 3-4 more years. We were in drivers seat and caved

 

[dreamcastrocks]

If you let him play last year on his current contract, you absolutely didn't risk coming close to losing him for nothing. We still had years--plural--of team control. Where in the heck are you getting the notion that it was his final year?

You are right. It was a 4 year contract, with a team option for a 5th. Forgot about that.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

This, 100%. I echoed this same sentiment. We controlled his rights for 3-4 more years. We were in drivers seat and caved

He finished 3 years on a 4 year contract with a team option for the 5th. How did we control his rights for more than 2 years?

 

[BurqueCardFan]

He finished 3 years on a 4 year contract with a team option for the 5th. How did we control his rights for more than 2 years?

I believe franchise tags would come into play after year 5.