Strategy and Len

[Cheesebeef]

You made the comparison. I was just saying that the numbers aren't as bad as you were making them. I estimated from the top of my head, maybe only 67.5%.

Actually, CHAP made the comparison. I said it was laughable and you bringing up the stats just made it more so. 67% of a player at the exact same age is MILES apart.

 

[Chaplin]

Actually, CHAP made the comparison. I said it was laughable and you bringing up the stats just made it more so. 67% of a player at the exact same age is MILES apart.

I NEVER compared their games, I simply brought it up only to show that jumping ability does not make a player great. That's it.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I NEVER compared their games, I simply brought it up only to show that jumping ability does not make a player great. That's

Ok... Well, if Len game doesn't compare at all to those guys, why bring them up? Seems like a pointless comment to make if there's no comparison between any of them except jumping ability, no?

 

[Chaplin]

I NEVER compared their games, I simply brought it up only to show that jumping ability does not make a player great. That's

Ok... Well, if Len game doesn't compare at all to those guys, why bring them up? Seems like a pointless comment to make if there's no comparison between any of them except jumping ability, no?

Geez, I didn't bring it up! People including you, we're using his lack of a vertical jump as part of the proof that he's no good. I simply stated that vertical is not a prerequisite for being a good big player.

 

[Joe Mama]

Lopez comparisons are just silly. Len is much more skilled on both end of the floor, and I think he has a much higher basketball IQ. I am a bit concerned that he seems to like finesse a bit too much and he ends up trying to be cute instead of just throwing it down, but you have to have some patience with a 20 year old kid who started playing basketball 6 or 7 years ago, and doesn't quite understand just how huge he is.

summed up very well. I can only figure that these Lopez comparisons outside of this board are based more on statistics than actually watching them play. I do wish we could watch him in summer league.

Joe

 

[hcsilla]

This isnt a video game, there is no guarantee of increased production. Two more years of Len playing at the level he did last year and he wouldnt even go in the 1st round.

No, history says otherwise.

Just look at Roy Hibbert.

 

[Phrazbit]

No, history says otherwise.

Just look at Roy Hibbert.

For every Roy Hibbert there are 100 Jake Tsakalidis.

 

[hcsilla]

For every Roy Hibbert there are 100 Jake Tsakalidis.

That might be even true but Len is far away from Tsakalidis in every aspect of the game.

 

[Chaz]

Yes, If Len never improves and plays like a college sophomore for his career it was a terrible pick.

If he develops into a quality NBA center it was brilliant.

Get your popcorn ready.

 

[Phrazbit]

That might be even true but Len is far away from Tsakalidis in every aspect of the game.

And he also is very different from Hibbert.

Unfortunately the guys Len reminds me of are mostly guys who names I have forgotten because they never did much in the league. In recent years Chairman Yi was given similar praise before the draft. A fluid big who was "skilled" but did nothing at a high level. The guy he reminds me of most in the last few seasons is Timofey Mozgov, except without the hustle Mozgov shows.

 

[sunsfan88]

Timofey Mozgov is like a scrub backup center. You think Len is gonna bust?

 

[carey]

Timofey Mozgov is like a scrub backup center. You think Len is gonna bust?

Isn't it obvious he thinks so? If he beats that drum as loudly as the Beasley one it's gonna get old real fast.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Isn't it obvious he thinks so? If he beats that drum as loudly as the Beasley one it's gonna get old real fast.

It's old already. Len, is going to take time to develop but there are going to be those that declare him a bust after the first mediocre game.

 

[Chaplin]

It's old already. Len, is going to take time to develop but there are going to be those that declare him a bust after the first mediocre game.

After a game? They've already proclaimed him a bust without seeing him even PRACTICE against NBA-level talent!

I think they are underrating Len and EXTREMELY overrating McLemore. And that leads to a lot of uninformed hate.

I would have preferred McLemore, and while I was pretty ticked off the night of the draft, I'm not anymore. I'm not in the camp that the front office is stupid, so IMO McLemore's workouts must have been so bad he wasn't even considered by management. And if McLemore wasn't considered (and Noel's knee was a concern), then Len is the next best thing.

 

[Griffin]

I think they are underrating Len and EXTREMELY overrating McLemore. And that leads to a lot of uninformed hate.

I would have preferred McLemore, and while I was pretty ticked off the night of the draft, I'm not anymore. I'm not in the camp that the front office is stupid, so IMO McLemore's workouts must have been so bad he wasn't even considered by management. And if McLemore wasn't considered (and Noel's knee was a concern), then Len is the next best thing.

Agreed. I think people are overrating McLemore because he happened to be arguably the best SG prospect in this year's draft. If this was next year, and the Suns passed on McLemore or someone like him, no one would care that much. He simply wouldn't have been ranked as high.

This was a very unusual draft, with very little consensus as to who should be drafted where. The Suns took a guy who many scouts predicted to have the highest upside, a guy who was ranked #1 overall by DX, and a guy who many thought might go #1 overall in the days leading up to the draft. Of course it may not pan out, but the same can be said about everyone else in this particular draft. But if he does turn into a quality starting center in the next few years, then the Suns won't have to worry about the center position for a long time and that is the most difficult position to fill.

Now they can focus on picking up their superstar wing or PF in next year's draft which is going to be deep at those positions.

 

[Cheesebeef]

After a game? They've already proclaimed him a bust without seeing him even PRACTICE against NBA-level talent!

I think they are underrating Len and EXTREMELY overrating McLemore. And that leads to a lot of uninformed hate.

I love this. so, you're more informed then then the people who hate this pick...without ever seeing Len PRACTICE against NBA level talent?!

we have our opinions, you have yours, but spare us the fact that we're ignorant fans. you have nothing to base that opinion on and not once have any of us called the Len's supporters uninformed. we just vehemently disagree he'll be a good player...or as good as the guys we passed on.

 

[SirStefan32]

I love this. so, you're more informed then then the people who hate this pick...without ever seeing Len PRACTICE against NBA level talent?!

we have our opinions, you have yours, but spare us the fact that we're ignorant fans. you have nothing to base that opinion on and not once have any of us called the Len's supporters uninformed. we just vehemently disagree he'll be a good player...or as good as the guys we passed on.

I think you are proving Chap's (and my) point. We are not saying Len is the next Hakeem or Tim Duncan. We are saying that we don't know, and that we will wait and see how he does. We are ALL ignorant fans- if we weren't we'd be working in front offices around the league.
You have your opinion, we have ours, let's give him a chance and see who was right and who was wrong.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think you are proving Chap's (and my) point. We are not saying Len is the next Hakeem or Tim Duncan. We are saying that we don't know, and that we will wait and see how he does. We are ALL ignorant fans- if we weren't we'd be working in front offices around the league.
You have your opinion, we have ours, let's give him a chance and see who was right and who was wrong.

that's fine...but that's not what Chap said. He specifically said the people who don't like the pick a) are OVERRATING McLemore and UNDERRATING Len and thus, that makes us uninformed. By labeling Mc overrated, and Len underrated, Chap apparently knows value better then us somehow... and our opinions that Mc is underrated and Len is overrated is uniformned. how is that saying everyone's ignorant? he's specifically calling out the people who didn't like the Len pick. That's not an ALL statement.

hope it works out for the best.

 

[Chaplin]

that's fine...but that's not what Chap said. He specifically said the people who don't like the pick a) are OVERRATING McLemore and UNDERRATING Len and thus, that makes us uninformed. By labeling Mc overrated, and Len underrated, Chap apparently knows value better then us somehow... and our opinions that Mc is underrated and Len is overrated is uniformned. how is that saying everyone's ignorant? he's specifically calling out the people who didn't like the Len pick. That's not an ALL statement.

hope it works out for the best.

What are you talking about? Stop this persecution complex. I never claimed Len was better than McLemore, let alone claim I know "value better then" you. You have been pushing this argument for some reason that doesn't make any sense. I have only claimed that the front office must have reasoned that McLemore was not going to be as good as Len, because his workouts/interviews/etc. have been poor for the past 2 months.

I never said McLemore would suck myself. In fact, I have said over and over and over that I would have preferred him over Len!

 

[Cheesebeef]

What are you talking about? Stop this persecution complex.

Chap when you call people uninformed haters, that's a slam anyway you look at it. or did you not say and I quote:

"I think they are underrating Len and EXTREMELY overrating McLemore. And that leads to a lot of uninformed hate."

If you didn't make these kind of comments, maybe I wouldn't feel "persecuted." personally, being told I'm an ignorant hater is just annoying.

I never claimed Len was better than McLemore, let alone claim I know "value better then" you.

again...you have deemed our opinion UNIFORMED about basketball. and then said we're overrating Mclemore and underrating Len. Is the fact that you've already claimed we're uninformed haters and you're opinion of what those guys are statements that you know better then us? if it's not, then figure out a better way to make your point without insulting people.

 

[Chaplin]

Chap when you call people uninformed haters, that's a slam anyway you look at it. or did you not say and I quote:

"I think they are underrating Len and EXTREMELY overrating McLemore. And that leads to a lot of uninformed hate."

If you didn't make these kind of comments, maybe I wouldn't feel "persecuted." personally, being told I'm an ignorant hater is just annoying.



again...you have deemed our opinion UNIFORMED about basketball. and then said we're overrating Mclemore and underrating Len. Is the fact that you've already claimed we're uninformed haters and you're opinion of what those guys are statements that you know better then us? if it's not, then figure out a better way to make your point without insulting people.

I'm sorry if you felt insulted, but it's my opinion that your reasoning behind loving McL and not liking Len is uninformed, or in the very least, clouded by unverified points.

We get that you don't like Len, we just don't agree with your reasons for not liking him. On the other side of the coin, it appears you are simply ignoring anything that has been said about McL and just assuming that he should have been the pick.

And generalizing that I think you are ignorant about basketball is ridiculous. Just plain insane, because I never once said that. Who's insulting who?

 

[Phrazbit]

Isn't it obvious he thinks so? If he beats that drum as loudly as the Beasley one it's gonna get old real fast.

Its like two days after the draft and Len is just about all ANYONE is talking on this forum, if debating the pick is "getting old" then people should probably just leave the thread.

And I am not proclaiming Len a guaranteed disaster like Beasley.

After a game? They've already proclaimed him a bust without seeing him even PRACTICE against NBA-level talent!

I think they are underrating Len and EXTREMELY overrating McLemore. And that leads to a lot of uninformed hate.

I would have preferred McLemore, and while I was pretty ticked off the night of the draft, I'm not anymore. I'm not in the camp that the front office is stupid, so IMO McLemore's workouts must have been so bad he wasn't even considered by management. And if McLemore wasn't considered (and Noel's knee was a concern), then Len is the next best thing.

I have seen Len play, you can look up his results, you can probably find entire games of his online (the good and the bad), these opinions are not out of left field. If I am ignorant for questioning how a guy who struggled against the ACC is supposed to become a franchise center, then fine. And its more than just McLemore to me (although thats who I would have taken), I would have gone for Burke, Pope hopefully by trading back before taking Len.

Yes, McD is a professional and this is his job and I have high hopes for him as an executive, but that does not mean I can really question this pick, and I can also with a straight face that I, Phrazbit of the forums, would have made a better GM than McD's dufus predecessor.

 

[SirStefan32]

Its like two days after the draft and Len is just about all ANYONE is talking on this forum, if debating the pick is "getting old" then people should probably just leave the thread.

And I am not proclaiming Len a guaranteed disaster like Beasley.



I have seen Len play, you can look up his results, you can probably find entire games of his online (the good and the bad), these opinions are not out of left field. If I am ignorant for questioning how a guy who struggled against the ACC is supposed to become a franchise center, then fine. And its more than just McLemore to me (although thats who I would have taken), I would have gone for Burke, Pope hopefully by trading back before taking Len.

Yes, McD is a professional and this is his job and I have high hopes for him as an executive, but that does not mean I can really question this pick, and I can also with a straight face that I, Phrazbit of the forums, would have made a better GM than McD's dufus predecessor.

Hold on a second- who said Len is supposed to be "franchise" anything? I was listening to McD get asked (by Gambo, I think) about Tim Duncan comparison, and McD flat out said that he'd hate to put those expectations on Len.

I think that the best case scenario is for Len to become a 16 and 12 kind of a guy who'll be a good third or fourth best player on a good team. I see Len at Center like I see Dragic at PG, if he develops as we all hope. At #5 in a weak draft, I think that would be pretty good.

 

[FutureSuperstar]

I'm a Maryland Student, so I've seen Len play a lot - The people comparing him to busts like Yi, etc. are out of their mind ...

Those guys did not play college basketball, so they were total unknowns - Len is not ... He averaged about 16-11 Per 36 minutes last year and clearly had a feel for the game (stuff you couldn't see with international unknowns), so I'm really dumbfounded why people are saying he was so bad last year

A lot of Maryland fans get on Len simply because they don't understand Team Basketball and the fact that a center can't do everything ; Fans expected him to be Shaq in college, so any little mistake he made fans got all upset, called him soft, etc. ... A lot of times Len would get the ball too far away from the basket, which had a lot to do with the guards - He did settle a few times when he shouldn't have, but I think that just has to do with him knowing that if he passed the ball back out to re-post, he wouldn't get the ball back ...

Len last year had the skill level of an NBA Player - I'm telling you, Sophomore Alex Len could step on an NBA floor and immediately be a solid defender / rebounder, while also finishing around the basket ...

That's not even talking about improvement - He improved a ton in the past year and there really is no reason at all he won't improve the next few years in terms of experience, strength, etc. and be a Very Solid NBA starter at the least

I don't see any scenario where he won't be a better player than Noel, barring injury ... His floor is higher than Noel's because of his height and defensive / rebounding ability and his ceiling is also higher because not only does is he physically superior to Noel, but he has a better feel for the game and is more skilled ... All at 20 years old

 

[hcsilla]

And he also is very different from Hibbert.

"Very" may be debatable but I agree that he is different from Hibbert since he has shown more in two years of college than Hibbert has in 4 years.

Len is at least as skilled as Hibbert was as a senior, a better rebounder while being more agressive and agile as well.