Suicide by Offensive Line

Harry

ASFN Consultant and Senior Writer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Posts
11,931
Reaction score
26,085
Location
Orlando, FL
I watched Neil Lomax get his career cut short by sacks. One year he got sacked 61 times. The next good Cards’ QB, Jake Plummer got sacked around 50 times in each of his first 2 years. However despite that abuse Plummer led the Cards to a playoff win over the Boys. However the beating he took caused him to develop happy feet and he was never that good again until he moved to Denver. Then came Kurt Warner. His playoff numbers are great. He actually got the Cards to a Super Bowl and almost won it. Sitting on the Cardinal bench he learned if he wanted to win game he had to get rid of the ball quickly. As one of the game’s best readers of defenses he overcame his weak offensive line and eventually became a winner. However he paid a terrible price physically. The NFL started tracking QB hits in 2009. Warner was hit 93 times his final season. It’s true that the Saints’ hit, not on a rush, was the final blow but the fear of future abuse caused him to retire when he could still have won. Lastly Carson Palmer once again made the Cards Super Bowl contenders. He wasn’t sacked as much, 40 tops, but in both 2015 he was hit 103 times. In 2016 Cards’ QBs were hit an incredible 127 times. That was mostly Palmer. In 2017 Cards’ QBs were hit 123 times. Palmer only lasted long enough to play 7 games. His career was over.

I present all this because most likely the Cards will start a fragile QB, Sam Bradford. The recently drafted QBOTF already has been concussed twice at least. My belief was that if you were going to put Bradford on the field the Cards owed him the best line possible. I didn’t mourn the loss of Veldheer & Watford. They were mediocre at best. If Pugh holds up physically (a very big if) he’s an upgrade. Iupati has never been good at QB protection. Andre Smith has bad wheels and his own concussion problem. He’s a decent player but the odds are he won’t play more than half the time. It would also help to have a couple of sound blocking tight ends and backs capable of picking up rushers running free. Do the Cards really have a plan for protecting these QBs? They did little to secure a premier blocker in the draft that was capable of providing immediate assistance. So it would seem inevitable Bradford will not last the season. Rosen is capable of playing early in his career, but do they dare use him? He’s not elusive. Remember they play the Rams twice. They delight in knocking out Cardinal QBs. It seems unlikely a solid blocker can be acquired this late in the process. I like the skill set of both Bradford and Rosen. Both can be winners, but they have to be on the field to accomplish that task.

The Cards have a modest history of success. Much of what they had was short circuited by a failure to protect the QB. I’d hate to see them finally get a QBOTF only to watch them destroy his future. I would have preferred to see them sacrifice a balanced offense to instead acquire the best QB protection possible. They can run with DJ, but I’m not sure the QB will be able to hide.
 

Dan H

ASFN Addict
Banned from P+R
Joined
Dec 1, 2002
Posts
6,209
Reaction score
5,227
Location
Circle City, IN
Harry, do you have any thoughts on the theory that Arians' coaching stuff didn't do the best job developing young talent, particularly along the offensive line? My thoughts are I'd like to take a wait and see approach through training camp. Who's to say the light doesn't turn on for guys like Boehm with a change in coaching focus?
 

BullheadCardFan

Go for it
Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2005
Posts
63,360
Reaction score
28,798
Location
Bullhead City, AZ
Good write up Harry

Online issues are something that the Cardinals will need to deal with. It's hard to believe that we will go into the season with the players we have.

Is the new Oline that good where he can coach them to play correctly? We have been told before that our coaching staff would coach them up, only to see the opposite.

Oline a huge concern still.
 

RON_IN_OC

https://www.ronevansrealty.com
Joined
Mar 10, 2004
Posts
27,190
Reaction score
35,692
Location
BirdGangThing
Doesn't McCoy run more of a zone blocking scheme, instead of man on man, like BA? If so, that alone should help out, IMO.
 

GimmedaBall

Hall of Famer
Joined
Dec 2, 2013
Posts
1,626
Reaction score
1,110
Great cautionary warning to our Cards FO on what needs to be accomplished with the roster before the season begins. Just don't know where the Cards are going to get superior OL guys now that we are down to after draft cuts and camp cuts. Trade options?

The poster boy for how to destroy a rookie QB behind a bad OL is David Carr (Derek's older brother). Drafted by the Texans he suffered record setting sack numbers and hits. In 2002, he was sacked a record 76 times. In 5 years with Houston, he was sacked 249 times---10% of the passing plays. He was a shell-shocked player who never realized his potential.

'Sacked' leaders since the NFL began keeping count (click on the top of the columns to manipulate the way the numbers display):

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_sacked_single_season.htm

An old adage is that a rebuilding team (or retooling if you want to agree with the Cards FO) develops the OL and DL as a first priority. For years, the Cowboys put and emphasis on OL players and took them at the top of the draft---they then drafted their QBOTF and running back star. Cards have that in reverse---we got the star RB and have added the QBOTF. Next year, with our expanded cap space, look for some major OL signings.

The playbook needs to take into account our pocket passers. In this regard Cards may be able to work around a less than stellar OL. In many ways, having a QB who is a pocket passer is easier on the OL guys---they got an idea of the space they need to defend---you can have bigger dudes who then work well in the running game.

When we signed Bradford, some referred to him as 'Captain Checkdown.' Get used to that style of offense--quick read-and-release passes, play action, running plays all designed to protect the QB from the rush and the hits and sacks. We got QBs with the football IQ and quick processing ability to make that kind of O go. No slow developing plays that BA loved in order to get in his 6 deep passes per game. No more rag-dolling the QB that sent Palmer to the IR and then retirement. We don't want our QBs holding the ball until the last second (like KW) and getting mashed as a result.
 

gimpy

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Aug 23, 2009
Posts
3,359
Reaction score
2,982
Location
Flagstaff, Az
Well, Gimme, I see where you're coming from and agree with you, but, that being said, what has that gotten them C boys the last 20 or so years?
 

GuernseyCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Dec 29, 2012
Posts
10,123
Reaction score
5,681
Location
London UK
Good write up Harry

Online issues are something that the Cardinals will need to deal with. It's hard to believe that we will go into the season with the players we have.

Is the new Oline that good where he can coach them to play correctly? We have been told before that our coaching staff would coach them up, only to see the opposite.

Oline a huge concern still.

4 of 5 are first round picks.

There are issues but they aren't scrubs.
 

GimmedaBall

Hall of Famer
Joined
Dec 2, 2013
Posts
1,626
Reaction score
1,110
Well, Gimme, I see where you're coming from and agree with you, but, that being said, what has that gotten them C boys the last 20 or so years?

So far, a QB that is protected and able to make plays from the pocket without suffering extensive damage. Shows how a good OL can elevate a QB. Remains to be seen if they get it all together teamwise to take the next step.

(PS I'm not a fan of the Cowpies. There were just a team that has recently gone through a slow and methodical rebuild of the OL).
 

BillsCarnage

ASFN Addict
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Posts
5,827
Reaction score
1,197
Location
The Flip Side
Yes, 2018 will be a survival year. I think the Cards are looking at next off-season to rebuild the Oline. They'll probably have a top-10 pick and buckets of cash for FA. It won't be the slow build like Dallas, but they should, hopefully, have a much better line for 2019.
 

MadCardDisease

Moderator
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
20,813
Reaction score
14,790
Location
Chandler, Az
BA and his chuck it deep "no risk it no biscuit" offense is gone. All of those long balls put the QB at risk. I think this new offense will be more of a ball control offense built around David Johnson.

The best way to protect Bradford or Rosen is to run the ball effectively. The question remains if the OL can remain healthy and open holes for Johnson.
 

RugbyMuffin

ASFN IDOL
Joined
Apr 30, 2003
Posts
30,485
Reaction score
4,877
Not the only team with these issues. Poor offensive line play is league wide. You think the Packers are trying to get Aaron Roger's killed ? Nope, but they have offensive line issues, and they picked two cornerbacks in the draft.

The Cardinals have replaced two starters from last season, they have two coming back healthy that didn't play a majority of last year, they drafted another two offensive linemen, and continue to churn the roster.

The only thing I really can hold against the Cardinals is player evaluation and scouting. The effort to find solutions is definitely there.

When your defensive background head coach goes center in the 3rd round, I think that is making and effort, and realization that the team is trying to get the protection you speak of.
 

JCSunsfan

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 24, 2002
Posts
22,114
Reaction score
6,547
Rosen not elusive but gets rid of the ball quickly.
Actually Rosen is quite elusive. He is good with those small movements in the pocket that get him just enough room. What he is not good at is breaking out of the pocket and creating on the move.
 

JCSunsfan

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 24, 2002
Posts
22,114
Reaction score
6,547
BA and his chuck it deep "no risk it no biscuit" offense is gone. All of those long balls put the QB at risk. I think this new offense will be more of a ball control offense built around David Johnson.

The best way to protect Bradford or Rosen is to run the ball effectively. The question remains if the OL can remain healthy and open holes for Johnson.
Will we see more of the tight end in this type of passing game?
 

Ohcrap75

Hall of Famer
Joined
Jan 3, 2014
Posts
1,270
Reaction score
723
When watching film on Rosen, the thing that stood out to me is how rarely he got hit. This comes from his ability to make pre snap reads, quickly finding the open man, and getting the ball out of his hands. He also is way ahead of the curve with the ability to throw with anticipation, which allows him to get the ball out instead of waiting for WR to get out of breaks.

Looking at a couple of our personnel moves, I believe our offense is going to focus on short to intermediate passing. These are not only Bradford and Rosens strengths, but also Fitz and Kirks.
 

CFLredzoned

Hall of Famer
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Posts
1,703
Reaction score
1,305
Location
Melbourne, FL
I keep hearing how OL is becoming even harder to forecast out of college than QB. Now I hear that guy on Doug and Wolf yesterday saying that they're not taught to drive guys off the LOS in college, so instead you have a bunch of bear huggers that never learn how to move people. So when I hear someone say a guy like Cole gets no movement in the run game, I wonder is it because he's weak or has bad technique - or is that not even a thing in college?
 

PJ1

ASFN Icon
Joined
Sep 21, 2002
Posts
12,174
Reaction score
5,254
Location
Nashville TN.
When watching film on Rosen, the thing that stood out to me is how rarely he got hit. This comes from his ability to make pre snap reads, quickly finding the open man, and getting the ball out of his hands. He also is way ahead of the curve with the ability to throw with anticipation, which allows him to get the ball out instead of waiting for WR to get out of breaks.

Looking at a couple of our personnel moves, I believe our offense is going to focus on short to intermediate passing. These are not only Bradford and Rosens strengths, but also Fitz and Kirks.

If he rarely gets hit and still has injury issues (concussions/shoulder) we really need to protect him.
 

Solar7

Go Suns
Joined
May 18, 2002
Posts
11,172
Reaction score
12,108
Location
Las Vegas, NV
I agree with those who are saying it's essentially a problem without a solution. I don't think this team was going to be able to get by with the dearth of talent it had at WR and be able to keep Larry from getting killed, or teams cheating up into the box all day long. Now we have some hope, and a WR for our young QB to grow with.

Next year, when we have $100 million to spend (and draft picks!), we can upgrade the line for the future.
 

GimmedaBall

Hall of Famer
Joined
Dec 2, 2013
Posts
1,626
Reaction score
1,110
Not the only team with these issues. Poor offensive line play is league wide. You think the Packers are trying to get Aaron Roger's killed ? Nope, but they have offensive line issues, and they picked two cornerbacks in the draft.

The Cardinals have replaced two starters from last season, they have two coming back healthy that didn't play a majority of last year, they drafted another two offensive linemen, and continue to churn the roster.

The only thing I really can hold against the Cardinals is player evaluation and scouting. The effort to find solutions is definitely there.

When your defensive background head coach goes center in the 3rd round, I think that is making and effort, and realization that the team is trying to get the protection you speak of.

The draft picks belonged to SK, not SW. Our new HC was just along for the ride. A DB-minded HC would have picked a CB at the top of the draft to play with, not a C.
 

Vacard

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Nov 10, 2008
Posts
4,538
Reaction score
4,105
Location
VA
Palmer was hit a lot because he held on to the ball longer then what he was supposed to and he had no pocket mobility what so ever.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Posts
10,462
Reaction score
7,417
Location
Chandler
The draft picks belonged to SK, not SW. Our new HC was just along for the ride. A DB-minded HC would have picked a CB at the top of the draft to play with, not a C.

If you watch all of the press conferences Keim & Wilks reiterated that they were joint decisions.
 
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Posts
10,462
Reaction score
7,417
Location
Chandler
I keep hearing how OL is becoming even harder to forecast out of college than QB. Now I hear that guy on Doug and Wolf yesterday saying that they're not taught to drive guys off the LOS in college, so instead you have a bunch of bear huggers that never learn how to move people. So when I hear someone say a guy like Cole gets no movement in the run game, I wonder is it because he's weak or has bad technique - or is that not even a thing in college?

Love the avatar. :)
 

GimmedaBall

Hall of Famer
Joined
Dec 2, 2013
Posts
1,626
Reaction score
1,110
If you watch all of the press conferences Keim & Wilks reiterated that they were joint decisions.

Joint discussions/decisions are different than 'final say.'

What did you expect at the press conferences?

SK: "I make the final call with MB having veto power. Our new HC is in the room to fetch the coffee and donuts."
 

Staff online

Forum statistics

Threads
554,108
Posts
5,413,857
Members
6,319
Latest member
route66
Top