Suicide by Offensive Line

[GimmedaBall]

Love the avatar.

+1

 

[BW52]

A couple of the UDFA linemen have some talent.

Brant Weiss RT (Toledo) 6`6 300-1st team 2017 ALL MAC Lineman
Austin Olsen LT (southern Illinois) 6`6 320 -2nd team ALL MVC 2017
Will House OLINE (southern Nazarene) 6`3 315 -2nd team Great American Conference 2017

They are just not chopped liver.At least they are good enough to be on Conference allstar teams.Maybe a sleeper or two to develop since Cards are thin at OT and OG.

 

[CFLredzoned]

Love the avatar.

Thanks. I thought I'd stick with the theme.

 

[Harry]

Harry, do you have any thoughts on the theory that Arians' coaching stuff didn't do the best job developing young talent, particularly along the offensive line? My thoughts are I'd like to take a wait and see approach through training camp. Who's to say the light doesn't turn on for guys like Boehm with a change in coaching focus?

BA’s staff seemed to believe motivation was a substitute for skill improvement. However, you can only improve OLs so much. Big guys are harder. You need to draft prebuilt talent.

Rosen not elusive but gets rid of the ball quickly.

Warner was extremely fast and still got beat up. Rule changes will help but not enough.

BA and his chuck it deep "no risk it no biscuit" offense is gone. All of those long balls put the QB at risk. I think this new offense will be more of a ball control offense built around David Johnson.

The best way to protect Bradford or Rosen is to run the ball effectively. The question remains if the OL can remain healthy and open holes for Johnson.

Teams always start by saying they'll run but you can’t run without a balanced attack. Plus when you fall behind you have to throw.

Not the only team with these issues. Poor offensive line play is league wide. You think the Packers are trying to get Aaron Roger's killed ? Nope, but they have offensive line issues, and they picked two cornerbacks in the draft.

The Cardinals have replaced two starters from last season, they have two coming back healthy that didn't play a majority of last year, they drafted another two offensive linemen, and continue to churn the roster

I think the Pack gambled on Roger’s mobility and lost. I think the Cards could have done more in free agency and the draft. QB protectionneeded to be their primary focus once they signed Bradford. I believed they overpaid Glennon instead of spending on the O-line. Does anyone really think they win with a Glennon. Neither Tampa nor Glennon did. This is not to say they shouldn’t have taken Rosen. He was a no brainer.

Palmer was hit a lot because he held on to the ball longer then what he was supposed to and he had no pocket movability what so ever.

He did hold the ball too long. However, look at tape of him when he arrived in AZ. At first he did a great job of shifting in the pocket. It was the subsequent knee injuries that destroyed his mobility.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

BA’s staff seemed to believe motivation was a substitute for skill improvement. However, you can only improve OLs so much. Big guys are harder. You need to draft prebuilt talent.



Warner was extremely fast and still got beat up. Rule changes will help but not enough.



Teams always start by saying they'll run but you can’t run without a balanced attack. Plus when you fall behind you have to throw.



I think the Pack gambled on Roger’s mobility and lost. I think the Cards could have done more in free agency and the draft. QB protectionneeded to be their primary focus once they signed Bradford. I believed they overpaid Glennon instead of spending on the O-line. Does anyone really think they win with a Glennon. Neither Tampa nor Glennon did. This is not to say they shouldn’t have taken Rosen. He was a no brainer.



He did hold the ball too long. However, look at tape of him when he arrived in AZ. At first he did a great job of shifting in the pocket. It was the subsequent knee injuries that destroyed his mobility.

Warner also played with no run game whatsoever. Hopefully a solid run game and an offense built around quick passes will keep these QBs from getting hit too much.

 

[GuernseyCard]

Joint discussions/decisions are different than 'final say.'

What did you expect at the press conferences?

SK: "I make the final call with MB having veto power. Our new HC is in the room to fetch the coffee and donuts."

Having the final call doesn't mean that a consensus wasn't reached.

 

[GuernseyCard]

BA’s staff seemed to believe motivation was a substitute for skill improvement. However, you can only improve OLs so much. Big guys are harder. You need to draft prebuilt talent.



Warner was extremely fast and still got beat up. Rule changes will help but not enough.



Teams always start by saying they'll run but you can’t run without a balanced attack. Plus when you fall behind you have to throw.



I think the Pack gambled on Roger’s mobility and lost. I think the Cards could have done more in free agency and the draft. QB protectionneeded to be their primary focus once they signed Bradford. I believed they overpaid Glennon instead of spending on the O-line. Does anyone really think they win with a Glennon. Neither Tampa nor Glennon did. This is not to say they shouldn’t have taken Rosen. He was a no brainer.



He did hold the ball too long. However, look at tape of him when he arrived in AZ. At first he did a great job of shifting in the pocket. It was the subsequent knee injuries that destroyed his mobility.

Name the $8m over two years offensive lineman available in free agency that is better than the 4 first round picks we have at this point ?

 

[GimmedaBall]

Having the final call doesn't mean that a consensus wasn't reached.

Final call (or last word) comes into play when a consensus can't be reached. That's why it is final say/last word.

For example, you and I both agree on player A. We have a consensus of opinion so we take player A in the draft.

You and I cannot agree. You like player A and I like player B. There is no consensus. You have 'final say' so we take player A. You end the disagreement with the last word.

Have to have that kind of arrangement in the draft room when the big board is being assembled. No time to get into the running debates that go forever---like on a fan forum page. Consensus is great when it happens but when it doesn't only one dog in the room has final say.

 

[WildBB]

Not the only team with these issues. Poor offensive line play is league wide. You think the Packers are trying to get Aaron Roger's killed ? Nope, but they have offensive line issues, and they picked two cornerbacks in the draft.

The Cardinals have replaced two starters from last season, they have two coming back healthy that didn't play a majority of last year, they drafted another two offensive linemen, and continue to churn the roster.

The only thing I really can hold against the Cardinals is player evaluation and scouting. The effort to find solutions is definitely there.

When your defensive background head coach goes center in the 3rd round, I think that is making and effort, and realization that the team is trying to get the protection you speak of.

True dat about OL's throughout. Even Dallas had a modestly mediocre year. They are addressing it where they can.

Packers flat out stole Josh Jackson there in the 2nd. That they picked him after picking one in the 1st attests to how shocked they were he was sitting there. They could've had some scouts who even preferred him over Alexander.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I will say this though. Rosen tends to throw in rhythm. He does not hold it long, moves through progressions quickly and gets the ball out quickly. That is what made Kurt Warner great, also Payton Manning. It makes blocking easier because they have a real sense of how long they have to hold off a defender.

 

[Errntknght]

Final call (or last word) comes into play when a consensus can't be reached. That's why it is final say/last word.

For example, you and I both agree on player A. We have a consensus of opinion so we take player A in the draft.

You and I cannot agree. You like player A and I like player B. There is no consensus. You have 'final say' so we take player A. You end the disagreement with the last word.

Have to have that kind of arrangement in the draft room when the big board is being assembled. No time to get into the running debates that go forever---like on a fan forum page. Consensus is great when it happens but when it doesn't only one dog in the room has final say.

The person with the final say need not always go with player A. For instance he might recall that in certain past circumstances his second in command had made better choices than he himself had so when the same circumstances recur he should, after trying to convince his subordinate that A is better and failing to do do, he should make player B, the selection. Final say doesn't mean you have to totally pig headed.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Warner also played with no run game whatsoever. Hopefully a solid run game and an offense built around quick passes will keep these QBs from getting hit too much.

Never mind the fact that Warner was completely unafraid of taking a shot to deliver an accurate ball at the right time.

 

[GimmedaBall]

The person with the final say need not always go with player A. For instance he might recall that in certain past circumstances his second in command had made better choices than he himself had so when the same circumstances recur he should, after trying to convince his subordinate that A is better and failing to do do, he should make player B, the selection. Final say doesn't mean you have to totally pig headed.

How is what you are describing not an example of reaching a consensus?

The person-in-charge has a consensus with his second in command based on their past working relationship. What started out as a disagreement resolved itself into a consensus opinion Good managers in any organization will do what you describe by giving value and credit to others they work with.

The 'final say' or 'last word' is when a consensus is not being meet. The guy in charge is not necessarily being 'pig-headed' when there is no consensus and he makes the call. After all, that is what he is being paid to do.

Card fans recall the draft day story of SK voicing his choice of AP over all other players, including the LT Levi Brown that Graves selected. LB went at pick 5 with AP going at pick 7 in the 2007 draft. Now SK is the head honcho making the calls and gets to have the final say.

 

[GuernseyCard]

Final call (or last word) comes into play when a consensus can't be reached. That's why it is final say/last word.

For example, you and I both agree on player A. We have a consensus of opinion so we take player A in the draft.

You and I cannot agree. You like player A and I like player B. There is no consensus. You have 'final say' so we take player A. You end the disagreement with the last word.

Have to have that kind of arrangement in the draft room when the big board is being assembled. No time to get into the running debates that go forever---like on a fan forum page. Consensus is great when it happens but when it doesn't only one dog in the room has final say.

I run board meetings and decide whether a consensus has been reached and with or without it's my vote that matters. It's called democratic fascism and it works.

 

[Chopper0080]

I posted this in another thread, and will re-state it here.

Justin Pugh - RG - former 1st round pick - 9 mil per year

Mike Iupati - LG - former 1st round pick - 6 mil per year

DJ Humphries - LT - former 1st round pick - 2.8 mil per year - 24 years old

Andre Smith - RT - former 1st round pick

Mason Cole - C - 3rd round pick

Evan Boehm - C - 4th round pick

AQ Shipley - C - 2nd year as a starter (vet)

John Wetzel - OL - Multiple games started at multiple positions

Whether we like the players we have, we have invested quite a bit into the line. I can't fault Keim for not investing even more than he has this year already.

 

[WildBB]

I run board meetings and decide whether a consensus has been reached and with or without it's my vote that matters. It's called democratic fascism and it works.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I run board meetings and decide whether a consensus has been reached and with or without it's my vote that matters. It's called democratic fascism and it works.

Yeah.........it "works"

The difference between seeing this from the eyes of an engineer.

 

[GimmedaBall]

I run board meetings and decide whether a consensus has been reached and with or without it's my vote that matters. It's called democratic fascism and it works.

Do you have consensus from your board members that it works? They'll probably agree on the facism part.

The trick is to allow a consensus decision on issues that are not that important to you. Then your board members will all agree what a great leader you are.

 

[GuernseyCard]

Do you have consensus from your board members that it works? They'll probably agree on the facism part.

The trick is to allow a consensus decision on issues that are not that important to you. Then your board members will all agree what a great leader you are.

Learned watching two Prime Ministers handle Cabinet meetings. Know all the tricks and how to manage wants, needs and personalities.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Why argue over what the decision making hierarchy is when NONE of us really know. For all we know, Michael makes the final decision after listening to coach and GM. Who knows? No one definitively knows.

I know that the Cardinals have been below average at developing and/or identifying OL talent. It could be that Keim and Co. are finding guys that could be successful and that Goodwin was horrible at developing the talent. There have been a few comments from prior players that elude to how bad Goodwin is. It could be sour grapes, but I would lean towards his inability to develop talent. Hopefully Brown is better, but we've seen in the past where reputation isn't always true (Grimm!!!).

 

[Buckybird]

Hopefully Brown is better, but we've seen in the past where reputation isn't always true (Grimm!!!).

I think Ray Brown will make a huge difference in our Oline! He still needs more talent, but Imo with him still being a somewhat new Oline coach he still has the motivation to prove himself unlike Grimm.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

I think Ray Brown will make a huge difference in our Oline! He still needs more talent, but Imo with him still being a somewhat new Oline coach he still has the motivation to prove himself unlike Grimm.

I certainly hope you are correct. We have been told many times in the past that certain staffs or coaches will be good teachers and coach up the players. Only to be disappointed to find out they didn't do anything much to develop them.

 

[Garthshort]

I think it was a VG move by Harry in leaving the Board. If he's wrong, he won't have read the ridicule. Of course, if he's correct, I do believe he might stop by and post an, "I told you so". To be fair, I think we'll have to compare the number of sacks allowed with this year's team and last year's team.

 

[JeffGollin]

No doubt, McCoy's offense will be more short-stuff and less chunk-play/home run stuff than BA's approach.

However, don't expect the home run to disappear entirety - establishing at least the threat of the deep ball is part of what will make the short-game go (just as just the threat of the run helped keep the defense honest & kept pass rushers off Carson Palmer).

It's not so much that the offense has to be 100% balanced as it does having even its weakest aspect a potential threat.

 

[Gandhi]

I posted this in another thread, and will re-state it here.

Justin Pugh - RG - former 1st round pick - 9 mil per year

Mike Iupati - LG - former 1st round pick - 6 mil per year

DJ Humphries - LT - former 1st round pick - 2.8 mil per year - 24 years old

Andre Smith - RT - former 1st round pick

Mason Cole - C - 3rd round pick

Evan Boehm - C - 4th round pick

AQ Shipley - C - 2nd year as a starter (vet)

John Wetzel - OL - Multiple games started at multiple positions

Whether we like the players we have, we have invested quite a bit into the line. I can't fault Keim for not investing even more than he has this year already.

While you are right that the players have been drafted in high slots, the Cardinals actually have not invested that much in the offensive line. Three of the four players selected in the first round were not picked by the Cardinals, and the salaries are not high by NFL standards. To your point, by the way, only three of the mentioned eight players are still on their rookie deals, and since they just picked up Humphries 5th year option his salary has been much increased and can’t really be described as a cheap rookie deal.

If you click here, you can see a list of how much money each team has tied up in their offensive line and click here to see a list of individual offensive linemen’s salary. The Cardinals are next to last, and Justin Pugh are only the 31st highest paid offensive lineman.

The first list takes 11 offensive linemen from the Cardinals into account. I don’t know which players, but I am guessing it is players that were on the roster before the draft. Some teams on the list have more offensive linemen but the average is 12 offensive linemen.