Summer of 2020 Suns Cap Situation

[1Sun]

Treading in water? Dude, I respect your opinion a lot usually, but I think you are way off on this offseason.

The Suns are significantly better right now. Its debatable on if every move maximized resources, but the Suns are better.

The roster is indeed better overall because it doesn't have those gaping holes at point guard and power forward.

But it is only better enough to win something like 33 games with Oubre and 24 or 25 games without, while having sacrificed all of our assets and upside in the process.

I think that is what was meant by "treading in water". We are still bad enough to be a lottery team, with the draft lottery now being our only hope for acquiring the building blocks we will need to be able to sniff the playoffs again, let alone contend for a championship.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Call me crazy, but I almost hope that Oubre only signs for the QO. That way the team can see if he really has grown and taken off or if last seasons spurt was an outlier.

What I think the darksiders on this board are missing is that the Suns likely believe that the core is Booker, Ayton, and Oubre, and that adding another star would just confuse things. Let those three grow with legitimate NBA players around them.

As far as the cap goes, what I think is likely to happen is that the Suns make a big move at the trade deadline. Picks and Johnsons contact to a team that decides to rebuild.

by all means, let's completely ignore the past and make Oubre a Joe Johnson situation all over again. That sounds like a great plan. Would really tell guys like Booker and Ayton they can trust this FO will take care of it's own.

If the darksiders are really missing out here and the Suns believe that Oubre is part of the core, signing him to the QO offer and not getting a deal done says the EXACT OPPOSITE of him being part of the core.

And "Darksiders"... you act like people... ah forget it. i've already been turned off the Cardinals board by your arguments with those who dare disagree with you, throwing labels on them and treating them like morons. might as well put you on ignore here before you do the same for this board.

Darksiders... lol. As if this organization is just a blinding ray of light, after getting unmercifully ripped in the draft, giving away assets and having what most people outside and even a lot inside the valley's bubble have regarded as a do no harm off-season.

 

[Hoop Head]

That’s a lot of certainty on a guy whose original team didn’t want to take a second contract risk and who only showed a relatively short spurt of successful play and who wasn’t heavily targeted during the spending spree in which RFA actually moved.

I like Oubre. And I think this offseason is either treading in water or a disaster if we don’t resign him. But to state he is “. . . going to be a borderline all-star at some point--one of those players that you can make the argument he should be on the team even if he isn't” is making a huge leap. He is not close to a sure thing. In fact, at present, his contract is likely going to be the biggest gamble this team makes.

The only restricted free agents that have agreed to deals have been part of sign and trades. Free agency isn't officially open yet and no team can sign a player to an offer sheet until tomorrow, at the soonest, which is when restricted free agents that teams are willing to take a chance on, will get offers. Right now they'd only be tying up their money longer when they'd be forced to wait for the clock to start on July 6th when that player signs the offer sheet and the actual clock starts as far as if the team holding that players rights decides to match. So saying RFA have been heavily targeted isn't quite accurate. All we know as of right now is the Suns haven't agreed to a sign and trade or a contract with Oubre, that's it. He may have a plan to sign an offer sheet tomorrow, we don't know, but the team signing him to would surely tell him to stay quiet so their plans aren't revealed early and their money ends up being spoken for before it needs to be.

 

[Phrazbit]

I like Oubre but he’s absolutely a risk. He probably does view himself as a budding star, the lack of interest in him by the league shows that teams are weary of giving money to a player who didn’t show consistency until the final few months of his rookie deal.

If Oubre were the same player he is now but in a free agent market like the league saw last year, he'd probably be looking at around 10 million a year, but given the crazy money that has been thrown around he's got to get more.

15-18 million a year is still a big risk but one the Suns have to take, losing Oubre for nothing would be a fiasco right now.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I like Oubre but he’s absolutely a risk. He probably does view himself as a budding star, the lack of interest in him by the league shows that teams are weary of giving money to a player who didn’t show consistency until the final few months of his rookie deal.

If Oubre were the same player he is now but in a free agent market like the league saw last year, he'd probably be looking at around 10 million a year, but given the crazy money that has been thrown around he's got to get more.

15-18 million a year is still a big risk but one the Suns have to take, losing Oubre for nothing would be a fiasco right now.

I'm not sure he hasn't garnered interest. As Hoop Head pointed out free agency doesn't officially open up until tomorrow and that is likely when RFA offer sheets will start getting signed. If he does or doesn't sign one tomorrow than we can be certain as to whether he is getting interest or not.

 

[Phrazbit]

I'm not sure he hasn't garnered interest. As Hoop Head pointed out free agency doesn't officially open up until tomorrow and that is likely when RFA offer sheets will start getting signed. If he does or doesn't sign one tomorrow than we can be certain as to whether he is getting interest or not.

I'm not saying that no one wants him, if he was a UFA I have little doubt he would have been signed already, but certainly no one has shown an interest for the rate that is being assumed (15-20 mil), most teams have used up that space already.

The only way he gets a big offer from an outside team at this point is if one of the LA teams come calling after whiffing on Kawhi. I can see a scenario where the Clippers offer him a 3 year deal for big money, I'm more worried about them than the Lakers because just about the only thing the Lakers have right now is forwards.

 

[Krangodnzr]

by all means, let's completely ignore the past and make Oubre a Joe Johnson situation all over again. That sounds like a great plan. Would really tell guys like Booker and Ayton they can trust this FO will take care of it's own.

If the darksiders are really missing out here and the Suns believe that Oubre is part of the core, signing him to the QO offer and not getting a deal done says the EXACT OPPOSITE of him being part of the core.

And "Darksiders"... you act like people... ah forget it. i've already been turned off the Cardinals board by your arguments with those who dare disagree with you, throwing labels on them and treating them like morons. might as well put you on ignore here before you do the same for this board.

Darksiders... lol. As if this organization is just a blinding ray of light, after getting unmercifully ripped in the draft, giving away assets and having what most people outside and even a lot inside the valley's bubble have regarded as a do no harm off-season.

I think you missed the key word in my statement....almost. The current problem is that while Kelly Oubre played well for about half a season, the rest of his career denotes a player that $15 million per season is way too much. If Oubre declines back to his career norm, his contract while be a bit of a problem going forward.

I'm sorry you feel, this way, I really do. As far as throwing labels go, I argue that on numerous occasions, you've called yourself a dark sider on the Cardinals forum.

Where I think you and others who think like you are wrong, is that the concept that the Suns could bring in a top talent is flawed. They need to win with Booker/Ayton first, and then other talent will come. And this offseason is a significant step towards that.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Treading in water? Dude, I respect your opinion a lot usually, but I think you are way off on this offseason.

The Suns are significantly better right now. Its debatable on if every move maximized resources, but the Suns are better.

“Significantly?” Maybe “treading water” is a bit of an undersell. I think we are better from a coaching perspective. And I think we are better in the short term. But I think we sold out a good deal of long term potential. I say that in terms of guys signed (many being at, or near, their respective ceilings like rubio, saric, Baynes and kaminsky) and drafted players having limited upside (like cam and Jerome) and shipping out a two year #4 overall pick.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The only restricted free agents that have agreed to deals have been part of sign and trades. Free agency isn't officially open yet and no team can sign a player to an offer sheet until tomorrow, at the soonest, which is when restricted free agents that teams are willing to take a chance on, will get offers. Right now they'd only be tying up their money longer when they'd be forced to wait for the clock to start on July 6th when that player signs the offer sheet and the actual clock starts as far as if the team holding that players rights decides to match. So saying RFA have been heavily targeted isn't quite accurate. All we know as of right now is the Suns haven't agreed to a sign and trade or a contract with Oubre, that's it. He may have a plan to sign an offer sheet tomorrow, we don't know, but the team signing him to would surely tell him to stay quiet so their plans aren't revealed early and their money ends up being spoken for before it needs to be.

Uh what we do know is that he wasn’t involved in a sign and trade and that no one has come to terms with him when it has happened with others. I mean there are literally deals that are public knowledge. To ignore those is to go full ostrich.

 

[Phrazbit]

“Significantly?” Maybe “treading water” is a bit of an undersell. I think we are better from a coaching perspective. And I think we are better in the short term. But I think we sold out a good deal of long term potential. I say that in terms of guys signed (many being at, or near, their respective ceilings like rubio, saric, Baynes and kaminsky) and drafted players having limited upside (like cam and Jerome) and shipping out a two year #4 overall pick.

#4 overall pick is in the past. Jackson has been a terrible player on the court and just about as bad off of it.

More confounding to me, in terms of value, is the idea that we needed to pair an asset with Warren to move him. That is a joke. Even as marginal as Warren is, I cannot fathom that we couldn't have gotten an actual for him from one of the many teams that didn't hit their free agent targets. The urgency of trading him during the draft made no sense.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I'm not saying that no one wants him, if he was a UFA I have little doubt he would have been signed already, but certainly no one has shown an interest for the rate that is being assumed (15-20 mil), most teams have used up that space already.

The only way he gets a big offer from an outside team at this point is if one of the LA teams come calling after whiffing on Kawhi. I can see a scenario where the Clippers offer him a 3 year deal for big money, I'm more worried about them than the Lakers because just about the only thing the Lakers have right now is forwards.

Yeah this. People are saying offer sheets haven’t gone out. And their bit wrong. But truth is, we do know about almost all of the deals that have chewed up the cap of all but four teams. Unless those other teams have back pocket deals to clear cap to sign Oubre, that ship has likely sailed for him.

 

[Krangodnzr]

#4 overall pick is in the past. Jackson has been a terrible player on the court and just about as bad off of it.

More confounding to me, in terms of value, is the idea that we needed to pair an asset with Warren to move him. That is a joke. Even as marginal as Warren is, I cannot fathom that we couldn't have gotten an actual for him from one of the many teams that didn't hit their free agent targets. The urgency of trading him during the draft made no sense.

I'm pretty certain I heard on 98.7 that last year they WERE offered something for Warren and didnt take it. Since then his value has only gone down.

 

[Krangodnzr]

“Significantly?” Maybe “treading water” is a bit of an undersell. I think we are better from a coaching perspective. And I think we are better in the short term. But I think we sold out a good deal of long term potential. I say that in terms of guys signed (many being at, or near, their respective ceilings like rubio, saric, Baynes and kaminsky) and drafted players having limited upside (like cam and Jerome) and shipping out a two year #4 overall pick.

What I think you are undervaluing is not the lack of upside of the players brought in....its the upside it's going to unleash with the young players.

Booker and Ayton will be better. Oubre and Bridges might be better. Jackson had to go.

 

[Folster]

#4 overall pick is in the past. Jackson has been a terrible player on the court and just about as bad off of it.

More confounding to me, in terms of value, is the idea that we needed to pair an asset with Warren to move him. That is a joke. Even as marginal as Warren is, I cannot fathom that we couldn't have gotten an actual for him from one of the many teams that didn't hit their free agent targets. The urgency of trading him during the draft made no sense.

The Nets had to include two 1st round picks to get off of the remaining 18.5 million left on the final year of Allen Crabbe's contract.

Miami had to include a first round pick to dump the final year of the Moe Harkless contract at 11 million.

Cap space is a huge premium during free agency. TJ Warren while productive, has only averaged 52 games played a season. He is still owed over 33 million on his contract.

The salary dump including the #32 pick was not bad considering the timing. The real crime was not moving him sooner. However, asking James Jones to figure that out and take action in season as the interim GM is asking a lot in my opinion.

 

[Phrazbit]

The Nets had to include two 1st round picks to get off of the remaining 18.5 million left on the final year of Allen Crabbe's contract.

Miami had to include a first round pick to dump the final year of the Moe Harkless contract at 11 million.

Cap space is a huge premium during free agency. TJ Warren while productive, has only averaged 52 games played a season. He is still owed over 33 million on his contract.

The salary dump including the #32 pick was not bad considering the timing. The real crime was not moving him sooner. However, asking James Jones to figure that out and take action in season as the interim GM is asking a lot in my opinion.

Those teams did that to clear money for max free agents. We didn't need to clear Warren's salary when we did. There was no urgency. Yes, cap space is a premium at the start of free agency, but within days the good free agents dried up and there were still a LOT of teams with cap space and I cannot imagine that Warren wouldn't have been an actual asset at that point instead of something we had to pay someone to take from us.

 

[Folster]

Those teams did that to clear money for max free agents. We didn't need to clear Warren's salary when we did. There was no urgency. Yes, cap space is a premium at the start of free agency, but within days the good free agents dried up and there were still a LOT of teams with cap space and I cannot imagine that Warren wouldn't have been an actual asset at that point instead of something we had to pay someone to take from us.

The use of the cap space is irrelevant. The cost to acquire cap space in June is high. Teams that are giving it up don't care what you are using it for when the factor in what they want in return.

There is no guarantee there would be a team willing and able to absorb Warren's contract had we waited days into free agency.

 

[Phrazbit]

The use of the cap space is irrelevant. The cost to acquire cap space in June is high. Teams that are giving it up don't care what you are using it for when the factor in what they want in return.

There is no guarantee there would be a team willing and able to absorb Warren's contract had we waited days into free agency.

What I'm saying is there wasn't an urgency. We didn't have the cap space to sign Rubio even as it was and if we couldn't move Warren we still could have stretched Tyler Johnson and I honestly cannot fathom that we couldn't have moved Warren anyway, even if was just for a similar trade.

This might not be something we're going to see eye to eye on, but to IMO was an amateurish waste of assets.

 

[Yuma]

What I'm saying is there wasn't an urgency. We didn't have the cap space to sign Rubio even as it was and if we couldn't move Warren we still could have stretched Tyler Johnson and I honestly cannot fathom that we couldn't have moved Warren anyway, even if was just for a similar trade.

This might not be something we're going to see eye to eye on, but to IMO was an amateurish waste of assets.

I think it's because they DO NOT want to stretch Tyler Johnson. They rather move TJ and give up a pick to do it. That's how horrible they feel about stretching TJ, whether we think it's not that bad. Gambo kept saying the Suns would absolutely consider that the very last option. If you are James Jones and you don't value second round picks, you probably think that's of little consequence to get rid of TJ on your timeline.

Not saying that's NOT maximizing your assets. I am not making an excuse. I am just saying I can understand what James Jones may have been thinking.

 

[Hoop Head]

Uh what we do know is that he wasn’t involved in a sign and trade and that no one has come to terms with him when it has happened with others. I mean there are literally deals that are public knowledge. To ignore those is to go full ostrich.

Of course he wasn't involved in a sign and trade because all of the talk leading to the offseason was how he wanted to be here and the front office saying they wanted to keep him. To change that, another team would have had to offered him a contract that caused him to say goodbye to Phoenix and also offering the Suns a package they'd accept in order to pass on their ability to match that offer. So the idea he hasn't agreed to a sign & trade yet being a sign he hasn't drawn interest doesn't hold much water as far as I can see. There are too many factors at play there.

You say that others have come to terms with teams but no restricted free agent have and that makes all the difference. It is a very important distinction since UFA and RFA is played quite differently. For a team to come out early and admit they've agreed to a deal that the player will sign as soon as the moratorium is over would be giving the matching time even more time to stall them and allow more free agents to sign elsewhere while that money is spoken for in regards to the team signing the player to an offer sheet. No team looking to get a restricted free agent to sign will grant the matching team extra time because that would be foolish, they'd want that time lessened if anything but that won't happen, they certainly don't want it expanded.

If it were the Suns in the position of trying to sign a restricted free agent right now and they came out and said they reached terms to sign them as soon as the moratorium was over, they'd be ripped to shreds on this board for doing that. It only hurts their odds in free agency as a whole to do that. Unlike other deals that are agreed to it's not a simple formality to submit the deal to the league office and it's over, that player is theirs. The waiting period of restricted free agency is at play. That's why we haven't heard anything and won't unless a sign and trade is done, which is highly unlikely in Oubre's case.

 

[GatorAZ]

Call me crazy, but I almost hope that Oubre only signs for the QO. That way the team can see if he really has grown and taken off or if last seasons spurt was an outlier.

What I think the darksiders on this board are missing is that the Suns likely believe that the core is Booker, Ayton, and Oubre, and that adding another star would just confuse things. Let those three grow with legitimate NBA players around them.

As far as the cap goes, what I think is likely to happen is that the Suns make a big move at the trade deadline. Picks and Johnsons contact to a team that decides to rebuild.

The Suns are doing the right thing by letting the market determine his worth .

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think you missed the key word in my statement....almost. The current problem is that while Kelly Oubre played well for about half a season, the rest of his career denotes a player that $15 million per season is way too much. If Oubre declines back to his career norm, his contract while be a bit of a problem going forward.

I'm sorry you feel, this way, I really do. As far as throwing labels go, I argue that on numerous occasions, you've called yourself a dark sider on the Cardinals forum.

thats great and all Krang, but i haven't referred to myself as such for years and literally have NEVER referred to myself as one here. i've just had my fandom questioned too many times on this board and am sick of it. when the team does something that legit seems like a great move - getting Monty as coach - i've been stoked and given credit where credit's due. but otherwise this off-season, we were laughed off stage at the draft, have the safest FA period ever that i think will mire us in mediocrity for the next three years and reports say that Jones was taking himself to the cleaners with Indiana. That just doesn't excite me.

 

[GatorAZ]

Joe Johnson situation giving everyone PTSD.

 

[Krangodnzr]

thats great and all Krang, but i haven't referred to myself as such for years and literally have NEVER referred to myself as one here. i've just had my fandom questioned too many times on this board and am sick of it. when the team does something that legit seems like a great move - getting Monty as coach - i've been stoked and given credit where credit's due. but otherwise this off-season, we were laughed off stage at the draft, have the safest FA period ever that i think will mire us in mediocrity for the next three years and reports say that Jones was taking himself to the cleaners with Indiana. That just doesn't excite me.

My apologies; I would NEVER question your fandom. You've been here TOO long, following these crappy teams.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

What I think you are undervaluing is not the lack of upside of the players brought in....its the upside it's going to unleash with the young players.

Booker and Ayton will be better. Oubre and Bridges might be better. Jackson had to go.

That’s fair. I am excited about having better passers around booker and Ayton

 

[Krangodnzr]

That’s fair. I am excited about having better passers around booker and Ayton

I'm not excited about Rubio...I'm excited about having a point guard who can take the ball out of Bookers hands and work to get Ayton the ball.

I think any of the "get a star" scenarios were pipe dreams.