Suns 2024-2025 Season Discussions

[AzStevenCal]

Under the new CBA I'm not sure if the Suns can aggregate players in a trade. It gets a bit confusing.

Here is what the Suns can and can't do, as explained by a Bleacher Report article.


By Eric Pincus, Bleacher Report dated April 30, 2024:

Depending on player options (Drew Eubanks, Eric Gordon, Damion Lee and Josh Okogie can all choose to stay another year for minimum dollars)—before re-signing O'Neale—the Suns' payroll could exceed $213 million with about $145 million in tax.
At that salary level, Phoenix faces the following restrictions:

• Can bring back an equal or lower salary for any player the Suns send out in trade, but not a dollar more
• No aggregation in trade (combining the salaries of more than one player for a more expensive return)
• Loss of pre-existing trade exceptions (the largest was $6.5 million from the Cameron Payne trade to the San Antonio Spurs)
• Cannot send or receive any cash in trade
• Cannot send or receive a player via sign-and-trade
• No mid-level or bi-annual exception
• Sign buyout players during the season who had earned more than about $12.9 million
• The 2032 first-round pick will be frozen (can't be traded, dropped to the end of the round)

What the Suns can do:

• Re-sign its own free agents with rights, notably O'Neale (full rights) and Saben Lee (Early Bird); those with non-Bird rights include Bol Bol, Thaddeus Young, Isaiah Thomas, Ishmail Wainright and Udoka Azubuike
• Sign players to minimum contracts
• Sign two-way contracts
• Trade individual players for equal or lower value without aggregation (possibly generating new, usable trade exceptions)

What's Next for Phoenix Suns After Huge Gamble Flops?

When the NBA signed off on the collective bargaining agreement with the NBPA last year, the new system gave teams a grace period of roughly a year to get its…

bleacherreport.com

Can someone go into more detail on the 2032 pick being frozen and dropped to the end of the round? If that restriction is carved in stone for having already been over the second apron, does it then happen on even more picks if we continue to remain over the 2nd apron?

 

[Mainstreet]

Can someone go into more detail on the 2032 pick being frozen and dropped to the end of the round? If that restriction is carved in stone for having already been over the second apron, does it then happen on even more picks if we continue to remain over the 2nd apron?

This is a good point. I'm all ears to anyone who can help clarify the CBA restrictions.

 

[Raindog]

Can someone go into more detail on the 2032 pick being frozen and dropped to the end of the round? If that restriction is carved in stone for having already been over the second apron, does it then happen on even more picks if we continue to remain over the 2nd apron?

It's kind of absurd when you think about it. It's about 100% likely that by 2032, there will be an entirely different CBA controlling everything.

 

[AzStevenCal]

It's kind of absurd when you think about it. It's about 100% likely that by 2032, there will be an entirely different CBA controlling everything.

I despise the way they've set it up but I suspect the basics of this CBA are here to stay. The league has tried for years to get salaries under control and to create parity so that every TV game matters and everything they've tried has failed. And it looks like this CBA is going to have a real impact on how teams are put together

The CBA has failed in the past because teams such as the Warriors continued to stack up salaries despite the huge tax and penalties they have to pay. Those extra costs were supposed to deter franchises from trying to buy/build superstar teams. And we joined the Warriors this season as a franchise apparently ignoring the league's wishes. Coincidence or not, changing the refereeing rules in the middle of the season effectively put an end to the chances of both us and the Warriors. If they're not winning or at least competing for the title every year, teams will stop trying to "buy" the championship.

 

[Chaplin]

Maybe he doesn't want to be here? If reports are true and he tore into the big 3 for their lackadaisical attitudes then maybe he'll opt to ring chase elsewhere.

After not playing for a year. Yeah I’m sure there are dozens of suitors waiting for him to be available.

 

[Proximo]

Apparently, Drew didn't get the memo that Vogel is gone.

No I think he did, that is why he is considering coming back.

 

[Yuma]

Second-apron teams won't be able to trade their first-round pick seven years into the future. So, if you're in the second apron by season's end of 2024-25, you'll automatically have your 2032 first-round pick frozen and unable to be dealt.

 

[Yuma]

As I understand from multipole outlets, we CAN trade this years pick, but must wait until draft night to do so.

 

[Yuma]

What are the penalties for the first apron?​

The first apron hits when a team's payroll exceeds $172 million. At this point, the following restrictions are triggered:

• Teams cannot acquire a player in a sign-and-trade if that player keeps them above the apron
• Teams cannot sign a player waived during the regular season whose salary was over the $12.2 million midlevel exception
• Salary matching in trades must be within 110 percent, rather than 125 percent for teams not above the apron

What are the penalties for the second apron?​

All of the penalties for the first apron apply to the second apron as well, which is triggered when a team's salary exceeds $182.5 million. For the 2023-24 season, one additional penalty is added when crossing the second apron:

• No access to the $5 million taxpayer midlevel exception

Starting at the end of the 2023-24 season, even more restrictions will be added to the second apron. These include:

• Teams cannot use a trade exception generated by aggregating the salaries of multiple players
• Teams cannot include cash in a trade
• Teams cannot use a trade exception generated in a prior year
• First-round picks seven years out are frozen (unable to be traded)
• A team's first-round pick is moved to the end of the first round if they remain in the second apron for three out of five seasons

These penalties are much more stringent than under the old CBA. Previously, owners with deep pockets could go well into the luxury tax as long as they were willing to pay. Now, teams who enter the second apron will have difficulty adding any sort of new talent via trades or free agent acquisitions.


Posted a thread for reference: First and Second Apron Restrictions

 

[GatorAZ]

As I understand from multipole outlets, we CAN trade this years pick, but must wait until draft night to do so.

I think the draft has to be technically started too. IIRC we couldn’t trade for Shamet until the draft in 2022 because OKC owned our 2023 pick. Btw bad trade lol.

 

[Yuma]

Suns shopping 2024 and 2031 picks

The Suns plan to shop the No. 22 overall selection and their 2031 first-round pick in trade talks this offseason, which are officially eligible to be dealt on draft night.
- Evan Sidery

 

[Yuma]

The Suns have four players that have vet minimum type player options for the 2024-25 season.

They are Damion Lee, Eric Gordon, Drew Eubanks and Josh Okogie.

That means they can choose to return (opt-in) if they so desire and the team would have to pay them.

I'm sure Damion Lee is coming back. All the personal videos I have seen on him, he loves PHX and so does his family.

A podcast I watched was bringing up the point, what if you didn't WANT a player option guy to pick up that option? Do you say things like, "You can take that option and we will pay you, but you won't play here or get significant minutes?" LOL. Some don't want EG back, but as a second unit guy I have no problem with him. He has shown that for very short bursts he can fill in a first unit slot when the house is on fire. JO probably has nowhere to go. Ironically, our favorite whipping boy, Eubanks, may actually get offered more elsewhere because teams are always looking for bench bigs. Frankly we are so small, I could totally see the Suns taking him back for a season. I did read a rumor we supposedly reached out to Andre Drummond to see if he had any interest in coming to PHX for a vet minimum deal.

 

[Yuma]

I think the draft has to be technically started too. IIRC we couldn’t trade for Shamet until the draft in 2022 because OKC owned our 2023 pick. Btw bad trade lol.

This is true, 100%. I wouldn't be surprised if hypothetical talks occur before then about the picks because rumors always come out about the trading of picks before the draft.

 

[AzStevenCal]

What are the penalties for the first apron?​

The first apron hits when a team's payroll exceeds $172 million. At this point, the following restrictions are triggered:

• Teams cannot acquire a player in a sign-and-trade if that player keeps them above the apron
• Teams cannot sign a player waived during the regular season whose salary was over the $12.2 million midlevel exception
• Salary matching in trades must be within 110 percent, rather than 125 percent for teams not above the apron

What are the penalties for the second apron?​

All of the penalties for the first apron apply to the second apron as well, which is triggered when a team's salary exceeds $182.5 million. For the 2023-24 season, one additional penalty is added when crossing the second apron:

• No access to the $5 million taxpayer midlevel exception

Starting at the end of the 2023-24 season, even more restrictions will be added to the second apron. These include:

• Teams cannot use a trade exception generated by aggregating the salaries of multiple players
• Teams cannot include cash in a trade
• Teams cannot use a trade exception generated in a prior year
• First-round picks seven years out are frozen (unable to be traded)
• A team's first-round pick is moved to the end of the first round if they remain in the second apron for three out of five seasons

These penalties are much more stringent than under the old CBA. Previously, owners with deep pockets could go well into the luxury tax as long as they were willing to pay. Now, teams who enter the second apron will have difficulty adding any sort of new talent via trades or free agent acquisitions.


Posted a thread for reference: First and Second Apron Restrictions

Thanks for that.

So our 2032 pick is now frozen but it won't be relegated to the end of the round unless we are above the 2nd Apron twice more in the next 4 seasons.

 

[Yuma]

So my question is how does a team get OUT of the second apron? If you can't aggregate trades, etc., it works the same for lowering the team salary as it would be increasing it. The only way I see the Suns doing this is if they do NOT resign guys like KD and Beal, which the NBA is trying to get guys from switching teams so much. I know the NBA has said they want each team to have stars spread out among the league to try and have parity and make it interesting for more fans. Maybe that's the point in trying to limit the multiple stars on a team. The players without rings can defeat this by signing for vet mins at the end of their careers and making a super team with multiple guys if they so wanted.

 

[AzStevenCal]

So my question is how does a team get OUT of the second apron? If you can't aggregate trades, etc., it works the same for lowering the team salary as it would be increasing it. The only way I see the Suns doing this is if they do NOT resign guys like KD and Beal, which the NBA is trying to get guys from switching teams so much. I know the NBA has said they want each team to have stars spread out among the league to try and have parity and make it interesting for more fans. Maybe that's the point in trying to limit the multiple stars on a team. The players without rings can defeat this by signing for vet mins at the end of their careers and making a super team with multiple guys if they so wanted.

Hire a drunk driver, cram everyone into the Team Yugo and provide free alchohol for everyone on board. Or, take them on world wide tours to war torn areas, make sure they are clearly identified as "Americans" whether they are or not. Require every player to take up base jumping and scuba diving, no training allowed. I'm sure there's a few more, those are probably the easiest solutions.

 

[Raindog]

I despise the way they've set it up but I suspect the basics of this CBA are here to stay. The league has tried for years to get salaries under control and to create parity so that every TV game matters and everything they've tried has failed. And it looks like this CBA is going to have a real impact on how teams are put together

The CBA has failed in the past because teams such as the Warriors continued to stack up salaries despite the huge tax and penalties they have to pay. Those extra costs were supposed to deter franchises from trying to buy/build superstar teams. And we joined the Warriors this season as a franchise apparently ignoring the league's wishes. Coincidence or not, changing the refereeing rules in the middle of the season effectively put an end to the chances of both us and the Warriors. If they're not winning or at least competing for the title every year, teams will stop trying to "buy" the championship.

The reason I believe many of these particular elements of the current CBA won't last is because you just know that the Lakers, Celtics, and every other big market team in the league will eventually also be above the second apron restriction, in spite of whatever failsafes the league has tried to put in place. It's a manifest destiny and only a matter of time.

Then when all of these "marquee" franchises (and by extension, the "marquee" players who want to play for them) are suffering from the CBA restrictions, and the only franchises tht are potentially benefiting are small market ones, there will inevitably be pressure from both the owners and the players association to reverse course or modify the stringency of the current agreement.

And when that time does come, I all but guarantee the NBA will capitulate to whatever the biggest money influences are.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The reason I believe many of these particular elements of the current CBA won't last is because you just know that the Lakers, Celtics, and every other big market team in the league will eventually also be above the second apron restriction, in spite of whatever failsafes the league has tried to put in place. It's a manifest destiny and only a matter of time.

Then when all of these "marquee" franchises (and by extension, the "marquee" players who want to play for them) are suffering from the CBA restrictions, and the only franchises tht are potentially benefiting are small market ones, there will inevitably be pressure from both the owners and the players association to reverse course or modify the stringency of the current agreement.

And when that time does come, I all but guarantee the NBA will capitulate to whatever the biggest money influences are.

The NBA has already capitulated to the richer teams several times and that's why we've reached this point. It's all about future TV contracts. The Commissioner is smart enough to know that not having quality balance throughout the league negatively impacts his broadcast partners, he's far more concerned about keeping them happy than satisfying the wealthy owners. This league would be almost unrecognizable without the huge National TV money. JMO.

 

[Chaplin]

I'm sure Damion Lee is coming back. All the personal videos I have seen on him, he loves PHX and so does his family.

A podcast I watched was bringing up the point, what if you didn't WANT a player option guy to pick up that option? Do you say things like, "You can take that option and we will pay you, but you won't play here or get significant minutes?" LOL. Some don't want EG back, but as a second unit guy I have no problem with him. He has shown that for very short bursts he can fill in a first unit slot when the house is on fire. JO probably has nowhere to go. Ironically, our favorite whipping boy, Eubanks, may actually get offered more elsewhere because teams are always looking for bench bigs. Frankly we are so small, I could totally see the Suns taking him back for a season. I did read a rumor we supposedly reached out to Andre Drummond to see if he had any interest in coming to PHX for a vet minimum deal.

We did something similar to Jae Crowder. Why, we still don't know. Monty hated him for whatever reason.

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

We did something similar to Jae Crowder. Why, we still don't know. Monty hated him for whatever reason.

Probably wouldn't marry his daughter

 

[AzStevenCal]

Probably wouldn't marry his daughter

More likely he threatened to marry his daughter. I believe Monty is great with/for certain types of people, but simply cannot or will not relate to other types. Jae is an other.

 

[Proximo]

Suns shopping 2024 and 2031 picks

This would be the stupidest thing the suns have done since letting Joe Johnson go.

HOW can they be this dumb. This team cannot be fixed with those "Big 3" at it's core.

I am really starting to think Ishbia is a worse owner than Sarver.

 

[Covert Rain]

This would be the stupidest thing the suns have done since letting Joe Johnson go.

HOW can they be this dumb. This team cannot be fixed with those "Big 3" at it's core.

I am really starting to think Ishbia is a worse owner than Sarver.

Well they think it can evidently. So, this would seem to match up with trading those for players they can use now. Regardless if you agree or disagree this team is not in rebuild with young talent mode.

 

[Carolinacacti]

The reason I believe many of these particular elements of the current CBA won't last is because you just know that the Lakers, Celtics, and every other big market team in the league will eventually also be above the second apron restriction, in spite of whatever failsafes the league has tried to put in place. It's a manifest destiny and only a matter of time.

Then when all of these "marquee" franchises (and by extension, the "marquee" players who want to play for them) are suffering from the CBA restrictions, and the only franchises tht are potentially benefiting are small market ones, there will inevitably be pressure from both the owners and the players association to reverse course or modify the stringency of the current agreement.

And when that time does come, I all but guarantee the NBA will capitulate to whatever the biggest money influences are.

What’s the vote like? Has to be 25 teams that like this crap

 

[Hoop Head]

Could a Cam Payne return be in the works? He never should have been dealt. For the minimum, he's a good pick up, IMO.

This was posted by Cam on Instagram today

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