Suns and upcoming CBA Big Change per WOJ

[Proximo]

As crazy as it sounds, I am kind of hoping Ishiba will buy a pick or 2 in the draft. Even if it's just 2nd rounders we need some lottery tickets of some kind.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Does anyone not think we could trade KD for a package similar to the one we just gave for him to a contender after next year? I don't think we would, but we absolutely could. the Knicks, Heat, Pels, etc all come to mind.

Not even in our dreams. We grossly overpaid, he's now a little older and a little more exposed so I can't see us matching what we gave up even if it was just in the value of the picks we gave up. He's still a very good player but he's a half step slower and more vulnerable to physical play and double teams. But if we can trade DA and CP3 and get 3 or 4 rotation players back, maybe we can recoup some of his value on the court by winning because he can still be a major part of a winning squad.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'm glad Woj addressed the changes and Suns specifically because now some people might understand what some of us have been saying about being screwed by the new CBA. The KD deal was an overpay at the time and with these details about the new CBA and restrictions that will come into play, it makes the trade that much worse. It's championship or bust, quite literally. It doesn't matter if Ishbia has deep pockets if he's unable to spend his way out of the hole. This new CBA comes pretty damn close to eliminating the ability of deep pocketed owners to buy their way to a title now.

I don't really know how this works but does anyone really think that owners everywhere were unaware of the specifics of this deal long before it was agreed upon? And assuming that's the case, making that trade is even dumber than the all time dumb move some of us labeled it at the time.

 

[Hoop Head]

They have not established what the apron will be and the Suns prior to the trade were I think only behind GS warriors in the luxury tax at the time. After a bunch of teams trading I think they are in the top 6 now. It all depends on where they set the apron. The Suns are $73 million over the cap. Durant is costing us 48 Million. Bridges cap hit next year was $21 Million and if we resigned Cam J (rockets are reported offering 22 Million per) that would be $43 million in salary or that territory.

There likely wouldn't have been much difference in terms of hitting the apron if we didn't trade for KD, stayed the course with Bridges, Cam J and wouldn't be contenders for a title to boot. I am willing to bet, trade or not, we would be at or near the apron either way. The NBA wants to punish the high spending teams and will likely look closely at the top spenders salary when setting that bar.

This is what the NBA wants. They want you to have 1 star and a team rounded out with higher paid veterans or if teams decide to have 2 stars even lesser players making up the rest of your roster. Ironically, the kind of team we have this year is the kind of team your going to see across the league should teams have 2 stars going forward. It sure seems like after the KD trade or staying the course, with these changes, the only avenue the Suns are going to have to make impactful roster changes is to move Ayton.

Yes, they have. Read up on it. $21 million over the Luxury tax line. This info has been available for a while now.

 

[Hoop Head]

Heres a couple of good write ups about the new CBA.

This one is from Yahoo Sports...

What you need to know about the NBA’s new CBA agreement

The deal is not official yet, but there is a ton to break down, discuss and dive into as details of the agreement emerge.

sports.yahoo.com

And this is an ESPN+ piece....

Explaining the biggest changes in NBA's new collective bargaining agreement

Changes in the new CBA could help the Celtics keep Jaylen Brown, but teams like the Warriors and Clippers could face significant challenges.

www.espn.com

 

[Hoop Head]

I don't really know how this works but does anyone really think that owners everywhere were unaware of the specifics of this deal long before it was agreed upon? And assuming that's the case, making that trade is even dumber than the all time dumb move some of us labeled it at the time.

How much was Ishbia aware of the new CBA is debatable. He didn't own the team until February, like a month or two before the CBA was approved. However he should have known it was being discussed and also James Jones is a former Players Association executive so he should have had some insight from both sides as far as what changes were up for discussion and what was likely to get approved.

It really does make the trade seem worse. I don't know how anyone can spin it as a positive or even neutral situation. Yes, the deal is done and there's no walking it back but trades aren't graded based on the days and weeks around when they took place but the months and years after, especially when assets involved in the trade don't convey for another 7 years.

 

[sdscard4]

KD was playing lights out prior to his Nets injury. He has what? 12 games with us? I hope we get him playing superstar for the rest of the playoffs ..we shall see

 

[Covert Rain]

Yes, they have. Read up on it. $21 million over the Luxury tax line. This info has been available for a while now.

OK. Thanks I didn’t see that. So, they would in fact be over if they had stayed the course.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Life of a Suns fan. We aren't allowed to have nice things.

Cmon. There is that guy named Booker that has had the best first eight games in the playoffs since MJ.

That's a nice thingZ

 

[Sparky16]

Cmon. There is that guy named Booker that has had the best first eight games in the playoffs since MJ.

That's a nice thingZ

You have to add value to KD probably having a roll in Book excelling in these playoffs, if the Suns could have pulled off a trade that did not include Bridges it would be lights out. DA is such trash

 

[Treesquid PhD]

People act like this is in some Suns Bubble impact, the teams this really hurts are the Clippers and Warriors most by a mile, it also hurts Denver a lot more than the Suns and the Lakers too, How about New Orleans?, they are screwed too, they can't keep BI and Zion and CJ and keep all their other talented players lol. The Suns are not "screwed" They will not bring Paul back in 2023/24 at 30 million, They will find a taker for Shamet, he is essentially on an expiring deal next year, they won't get much but maybe Jones gets fired and offers us a 1 for him.

I think Ayton still has value, just like we see how KD now every day, he has worts, he is aging and his shooting is in decline. Some teams will want Ayton, he is young, his is coached by Mark Bryant not exactly known as a big man coach (dude is lazy never works on the bigs hands and just collecting a check to feed his obvious fast food disorder, I watch him at warm ups laughing at DA and his half court shots), they wil convince themselves he is worth it, just like Sarver and RMD did. Other teams have stars that will demand changes. You all act like every NBA is run perfect and the Suns are some weird anomaly.

Let's also not forget after 24/25 the NBA deal is going to be ENOURMOUS. The cap will go way up. Booker will look like a great deal still under 30. Paul will be off the Books sure Durant will be old but he will be in that Lebron role.

By then I fully expect James Jones to get canned, his scouting is youtube, he passed on way too many great players, makes weird decisions, bad drafting, sending #1's for Shamet and their own player in Criag, he is lazy and dumb. Hell, he even admitted he would not have drafted Booker, JOnes is a diversity hire, he has made so many piss poor moves and non move like a succession plan for point gaurd. Um Haliburton? Nope not YouTubeJones, I bet that MF doesn't even pay premium he watches the ads. Ishbia will keep him around for DEI (like President of something), but he won't be making the calls.

Also, again this really screws over the lower end of the market, the max guys will always get their max, but a lot of good players will be taking less money and guess where they might want to play?

Finally, these rules made by owners never work, they just never work, smart teams always find ways around these rules. The multiplier didn't keep stars locked into bad organizations and this won't either. Watch.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

They have not established what the apron will be and the Suns prior to the trade were I think only behind GS warriors in the luxury tax at the time. After a bunch of teams trading I think they are in the top 6 now. It all depends on where they set the apron. The Suns are $73 million over the cap. Durant is costing us 48 Million. Bridges cap hit next year was $21 Million and if we resigned Cam J (rockets are reported offering 22 Million per) that would be $43 million in salary or that territory.

There likely wouldn't have been much difference in terms of hitting the apron if we didn't trade for KD, stayed the course with Bridges, Cam J and wouldn't be contenders for a title to boot. I am willing to bet, trade or not, we would be at or near the apron either way. The NBA wants to punish the high spending teams and will likely look closely at the top spenders salary when setting that bar.

This is what the NBA wants. They want you to have 1 star and a team rounded out with higher paid veterans or if teams decide to have 2 stars even lesser players making up the rest of your roster. Ironically, the kind of team we have this year is the kind of team your going to see across the league should teams have 2 stars going forward. It sure seems like after the KD trade or staying the course, with these changes, the only avenue the Suns are going to have to make impactful roster changes is to move Ayton.

Mostly right although, I think the Clippers have hit the Luxury tax apron multiple times so I don't see how they are behind than Phoenix now, magic?

There are three ways to build a roster now.
1. Very Top heavy and hope you fill in with the right role players, you can't scout on youtube anymore, you need to build a good scouting department and find guys, like Alvarado, like Dort guys like that. This is why Youtube James Jones is not going to be making the calls for very much longer.

2. You do what Brooklyn has to do, you over pay a bunch of good players but do you win? Sure Bridges is a stud but is he really a number 1? I have major doubts that he is but guess what his deal ends in 26, oh the exact time when the Suns have a **** ton of cap space. In this case you need to get lucky like Denver did with Joker.

3. You coast like the poverty teams do, you pay for your one mega star and sell all your players for money, this is Portland. The league has a lot of Portland's, Charolette's etc...

 

[Treesquid PhD]

You have to add value to KD probably having a roll in Book excelling in these playoffs, if the Suns could have pulled off a trade that did not include Bridges it would be lights out. DA is such trash

Sure and Shawn Marks would have lost his job. KD was not coming here without Bridges being in the trade. Hell They probably asked for Booker I would. These are negotiations. I wouldn't worry about it, you can build a roster when you have KD and Book, Ayton is gone and he will get us some pieces that fit. Paul is gone, he is too slow and old, they clearly need a point who plays fast and can create. We need some toughness, don't be surprised if we grab an enforcer on the cheap.

 

[GatorAZ]

Woj is pretty dramatic. It sucks the Suns won’t have their TPMLE after next season and won’t be able to trade picks they don’t have anyway. Ishbia will put something together involving Ayton or Paul, use their last exception then hunt for ring chasers.

 

[Raindog]

People act like this is in some Suns Bubble impact, the teams this really hurts are the Clippers and Warriors most by a mile, it also hurts Denver a lot more than the Suns and the Lakers too, How about New Orleans?, they are screwed too, they can't keep BI and Zion and CJ and keep all their other talented players lol. The Suns are not "screwed" They will not bring Paul back in 2023/24 at 30 million, They will find a taker for Shamet, he is essentially on an expiring deal next year, they won't get much but maybe Jones gets fired and offers us a 1 for him.

I think Ayton still has value, just like we see how KD now every day, he has worts, he is aging and his shooting is in decline. Some teams will want Ayton, he is young, his is coached by Mark Bryant not exactly known as a big man coach (dude is lazy never works on the bigs hands and just collecting a check to feed his obvious fast food disorder, I watch him at warm ups laughing at DA and his half court shots), they wil convince themselves he is worth it, just like Sarver and RMD did. Other teams have stars that will demand changes. You all act like every NBA is run perfect and the Suns are some weird anomaly.

Let's also not forget after 24/25 the NBA deal is going to be ENOURMOUS. The cap will go way up. Booker will look like a great deal still under 30. Paul will be off the Books sure Durant will be old but he will be in that Lebron role.

By then I fully expect James Jones to get canned, his scouting is youtube, he passed on way too many great players, makes weird decisions, bad drafting, sending #1's for Shamet and their own player in Criag, he is lazy and dumb. Hell, he even admitted he would not have drafted Booker, JOnes is a diversity hire, he has made so many piss poor moves and non move like a succession plan for point gaurd. Um Haliburton? Nope not YouTubeJones, I bet that MF doesn't even pay premium he watches the ads. Ishbia will keep him around for DEI (like President of something), but he won't be making the calls.

Also, again this really screws over the lower end of the market, the max guys will always get their max, but a lot of good players will be taking less money and guess where they might want to play?

Finally, these rules made by owners never work, they just never work, smart teams always find ways around these rules. The multiplier didn't keep stars locked into bad organizations and this won't either. Watch.

I agree with most of your takes. It's not a be-all/end-all disaster, mainly because most of the teams we are competing with in the upper echelon are going to be dealing with the same or worse limitations.

And we definitely need to get rid of James Jones. Does anyone have any confidence at all that he will make a competent trade with what few resources we have left? Or that he will effectively use the draft picks we do retain, which are now more important than ever for restocking the roster? I sure don't.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

Here is where ethe Suns sit. KD and Book are staying, but it makes no sense to pay Paul 30M, he can under the new rules redo his deal and take less, and he should. Ayton making 32M is the obvious contract to move, he just doesn't fit with this team, it's too bad they didn't trade for Sabonis because he fits perfect with KD and Book, he is like a super Landale. Just having a more agile center who will be a dog (like Jock did last night) is more of a plus than your University of Arizona favorite, yes I know many of you think he is just going to turn it on but he isn't, give it up you are falling for the sunk cost fallacy and probably a U of A stan, just let it go, we can get something for him. Ish stays, I expect Landale to stay as well. Now I am seeing that the cap is at 162 and also 134, so I am confused, if it's 162 then the second apron is 17.5m of the tax. So $179M would be the threshold that I think the Suns would try to stay under. But just getting something for Paul would be great, also note in the rules cheap teams get penalized for not spending 90% of the cap. So for poorly run teams a contract like Paul could 1) make some sense to appease your fans 2) is off the books completely in 2024/25.

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[Treesquid PhD]

Woj is pretty dramatic. It sucks the Suns won’t have their TPMLE after next season and won’t be able to trade picks they don’t have anyway. Ishbia will put something together involving Ayton or Paul, use their last exception then hunt for ring chasers.

Next year they have a 5M with Paul
They have a trade exception of about 5M for Dario
They also have biannual at about 4M

They can get some guys to come here for that.

I don't think the term ring chasers is fair, if you are trying to show your skills and get a better deal, then why not play with two floor spacers like KD and Book. Look at the wide-open shots Okgie and Criag get! There are guys who can play and make those shots, The Clippers can't resign Powel, go grab him, he'll drain those.

Also, we need some toughness - Dillon Brooks, I know people hate him but Ish is not tough he is a perimeter player with big shoulders. We need a dog, Brooks can play he will be cheap next season.

 

[Hoop Head]

People act like this is in some Suns Bubble impact, the teams this really hurts are the Clippers and Warriors most by a mile, it also hurts Denver a lot more than the Suns and the Lakers too, How about New Orleans?, they are screwed too, they can't keep BI and Zion and CJ and keep all their other talented players lol. The Suns are not "screwed" They will not bring Paul back in 2023/24 at 30 million, They will find a taker for Shamet, he is essentially on an expiring deal next year, they won't get much but maybe Jones gets fired and offers us a 1 for him.

I think Ayton still has value, just like we see how KD now every day, he has worts, he is aging and his shooting is in decline. Some teams will want Ayton, he is young, his is coached by Mark Bryant not exactly known as a big man coach (dude is lazy never works on the bigs hands and just collecting a check to feed his obvious fast food disorder, I watch him at warm ups laughing at DA and his half court shots), they wil convince themselves he is worth it, just like Sarver and RMD did. Other teams have stars that will demand changes. You all act like every NBA is run perfect and the Suns are some weird anomaly.

Let's also not forget after 24/25 the NBA deal is going to be ENOURMOUS. The cap will go way up. Booker will look like a great deal still under 30. Paul will be off the Books sure Durant will be old but he will be in that Lebron role.

By then I fully expect James Jones to get canned, his scouting is youtube, he passed on way too many great players, makes weird decisions, bad drafting, sending #1's for Shamet and their own player in Criag, he is lazy and dumb. Hell, he even admitted he would not have drafted Booker, JOnes is a diversity hire, he has made so many piss poor moves and non move like a succession plan for point gaurd. Um Haliburton? Nope not YouTubeJones, I bet that MF doesn't even pay premium he watches the ads. Ishbia will keep him around for DEI (like President of something), but he won't be making the calls.

Also, again this really screws over the lower end of the market, the max guys will always get their max, but a lot of good players will be taking less money and guess where they might want to play?

Finally, these rules made by owners never work, they just never work, smart teams always find ways around these rules. The multiplier didn't keep stars locked into bad organizations and this won't either. Watch.

So much to unpack here. This is a Suns board so of course we're going to talk about the impact to the Suns the most. Who cares about the Warriors or Clippers?

I don't like James Jones either and think he's done a pretty poor job the last 2 years but to suggest he was a diversity hire and here only because of the color of his skin is ignorant. Normally I wouldn't make that claim about people posting here but you decided to double down on that by stating he will be moved to a different position rather than let go simply because he fills some diversity quota. That tells me it wasn't just a poor take initially but what you truly believe and there's no other way to label that other than ignorant.

The rest of your post is similar, all based on emotion rather than actual information. You make claims things will play out a certain way but can't actually predict how things will play out. It'd be nice if there were an easy path to go down but we don't know and right now it seems all the actual professional analysts have highlighted how restrictive this will be for top spending teams, and make no mistake they've all mentioned Golden State and the Clippers a lot, but theyve worked their way down to the Suns since the Suns are on the cusp of being one of those big spending teams except there's obvious holes on this roster and before this CBA was revealed everyone said those holes would get filled in similar ways the Clippers, Warriors, and Lakers have. The avenues those teams used won't be available, so the narrative of how the Suns get KD and Book help has shifted and become more of mystery.

 

[Yuma]

I don't really know how this works but does anyone really think that owners everywhere were unaware of the specifics of this deal long before it was agreed upon? And assuming that's the case, making that trade is even dumber than the all time dumb move some of us labeled it at the time.

Remember, our guy wasn't an owner yet when the owners agreed to all this.

 

[Mainstreet]

Remember, our guy wasn't an owner yet when the owners agreed to all this.

I believe James Jones was in position to know what was going on and likely advised Mat Ishbia accordingly.

 

[Covert Rain]

I am surprised the apron is so low at 21 million. That seems to confirm they took aim at the top salaried teams. Having Ayton on our books compared to his output is our biggest burden.

 

[Hoop Head]

I am surprised the apron is so low at 21 million. That seems to confirm they took aim at the top salaried teams. Having Ayton on our books compared to his output is our biggest burden.

The tax is supposed to be a deterrent but really most teams will have to dip into it if they want to contend and keep the window open through a stretch. I think everyone recognizes and accepts that. However at a certain point that spending gets a bit reckless and out of control and that's where the apron comes in to sort of curb team that continue to spend and spend because they're a big market or the owner doesn't care about tax penalties. This is as close to a hard cap as the players would accept. We'll see how it works but I really like it from the view of a fan. Of course the Suns will now be hindered by it but had Sarver not sold, this would have benefited the Suns much more than hurt because we'd be one of teams that wouldn't need to worry about the apron since Sarver would never hit it. It would level the playing field between the haves and have nots, keeping teams like the Clippers and Warriors from continually retooling with the midlevel and buyout players that are ring chasing.

Its not like there isnt a lot of room above the cap to work with. The tax line is something like 28 million over the cap, so the apron is like $50 million over the cap.

 

[Mainstreet]

I am surprised the apron is so low at 21 million. That seems to confirm they took aim at the top salaried teams. Having Ayton on our books compared to his output is our biggest burden.

As I understand it, if a team goes over the second apron, they lose the MLE and the Biannual Exception as well. It's as close to a hard cap the NBA may ever get and probably just as effective. It's a big win for most of the NBA owners.

 

[Hoop Head]

As I understand it, if a team goes over the second apron, they lose the MLE and the Biannual Exception as well. It's as close to a hard cap the NBA may ever get and probably just as effective. It's a big win for most of the NBA owners.

They also lose the ability to add players bought out during the season if their salary pre-buyout was over the average salary size, which is essentially the midlevel exception.

Another restriction is trading away future picks. I don't quite understand that but I believe it's something like they can only trade picks 5 years out rather than 7.

One other rule change is trade restrictions. If over the second then teams can't take on more than 110% of a players salary in a trade compared to normal trade restrictions of 125% brought back. So definitely makes things more restrictive. There's something about packaging players also but I can't recall exactly how that works.

 

[Covert Rain]

As I understand it, if a team goes over the second apron, they lose the MLE and the Biannual Exception as well. It's as close to a hard cap the NBA may ever get and probably just as effective. It's a big win for most of the NBA owners.

In more ways than just salary too. It’s going to force more parody across the league. The NBA is determined to kill dynasties.