Suns @ Bulls Saturday game thread 2-22-20

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I’m seriously trying to figure out a center in Suns history clearly better than DA. I don’t count amare because he’s a 4.

I don’t think there is one. But we all have to admit it’s a very low bar. It’s literally the only position where I feel we’ve never had even much competence much less anything close to a star.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I remember in the seventies when big men ruled the game. Big men trained differently. I remember hardly ever seeing a guard being able to strip a big man. They had really strong hands. The great big men. I want this kid to be great.

Did you think Tm Chambers was a big man? He got stripped constantly. It drove me nuts.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Did you think Tm Chambers was a big man? He got stripped constantly. It drove me nuts.

Agreed. The image of chambers driving and throwing his arms up in the air without the ball is vivid.

 

[Sunburn]

Also, his three point shooting is what I thoiught was going to translate to the NBA well. He has been doing that well all year.

White is shooting 33% from 3 this year.

 

[BC867]

That's kind of sad actually.

I think the expectation of being #1 overall while also having Trae Young and Doncic come out of the same draft is why so many people are very critical of Ayton.

He has bad games where he goes for around 30 and 20. That's how good he can be, if he played better, we are looking at absolutely monster numbers.

Today was my birthday and I was with family. 'Glad to see that the Suns won, but I maintain that
playing catch up causes stress and wears a team out.

Regarding Ayton's numbers, I would rather evaluate him on how many games he leads (or doesn't
lead) the Suns to victory. And how consistent, from quarter to quarter, his performance is (or isn't).

 

[BC867]

Alvin was our best. He just happened to be around when the center position was really dominant. He had to play real monsters at his position!

Alvan had to play monsters because he weighed 212 pounds and had the skinniest arms on the court.

Just about every player on the opponents' rosters seemed like a monster in comparison to him.

His career Suns stats reflect longevity. His best year . . . was his first year. That is a fact.

Although Ayton looks like a monster compared to Adams, he is playing the Center position
just as soft so far. And that is a concern. Ayton is 6'11"-250 vs. Adams 6'9"-212.

 

[Superbone]

Yeah I didn't want to call anyone out so I was about to bring up Dack Van Arsdale.

Everybody forgets about (doesn’t know about) Neal Walk who was a 20/10 guy for us for a couple seasons.

 

[JerkFace]

Today was my birthday and I was with family. 'Glad to see that the Suns won, but I maintain that
playing catch up causes stress and wears a team out.

Regarding Ayton's numbers, I would rather evaluate him on how many games he leads (or doesn't
lead) the Suns to victory. And how consistent, from quarter to quarter, his performance is (or isn't).

Happy birthday

 

[JerkFace]

Everybody forgets about (doesn’t know about) Neal Walk who was a 20/10 guy for us for a couple seasons.

He was the consolation prize to Lew Alcindor.

 

[BC867]

Everybody forgets about (doesn’t know about) Neal Walk who was a 20/10 guy for us for a couple seasons.

You're right about Neal Walk, who was our concession in losing the coin flip for Lou Alcindor (Kareem). Neal referred to himself as the "booby prize".

His last two seasons with the Suns (4th and 5th) were the best of career. Sadly he played only eight NBA seasons, then overseas,
and was ultimately confined to a wheel chair.

In 1987, a tingly feeling in his feet prompted a doctor’s visit that led to surgery to remove bone chips in his neck.

During that surgery, it was discovered that a disk was pressing against his spinal cord with a lump between his
shoulder blades. A subsequent surgery removed the knuckle-sized mass, which was benign, but he lost use of his legs.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/former-phoenix-suns-center-neal-walk-passes-away-at-age-67/

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[AzStevenCal]

Everybody forgets about (doesn’t know about) Neal Walk who was a 20/10 guy for us for a couple seasons.

I wouldn't say "everybody", I certainly remember him well. It's not like it was his fault but many Valley fans never forgave him for not being Alcindor. He was a very unhappy man the last time I spoke with him (early 90's). At the time he was playing wheelchair basketball for a team sponsored by the Suns and another former Suns center was coaching them (Dennis Awtrey).

 

[Phrazbit]

That’s pretty optimistic but sounds like you need to be reminded of who actually owns this team.

It is because of Sarver that I am sure that Monty isn't going anywhere.

We're still paying Koko for another year and a half. Monty signed a 5 year deal... there isn't a chance in hell that Sarver pays 3 head coaches at once. Monty has, at least, until the end of next season, no matter how bad things get.

 

[TJ]

It is because of Sarver that I am sure that Monty isn't going anywhere.

We're still paying Koko for another year and a half. Monty signed a 5 year deal... there isn't a chance in hell that Sarver pays 3 head coaches at once. Monty has, at least, until the end of next season, no matter how bad things get.

He’s still paying Watsonand Igor m, so I know he’d do it, but I think Monty’s done enough with this team that he’s coming back next year.

 

[Bobster]

Everybody forgets about (doesn’t know about) Neal Walk who was a 20/10 guy for us for a couple seasons.

Walk was a solid center for a couple of years and then was traded to the Jazz in the deal that brought us Curtis Perry, Dennis Awtrey and a first round pick (which eventually got them Ricky Sobers). After a year splitting time in New Orleans with Mel Counts he was traded to the Knicks where he played a few years before finishing up his career in playing in Israel. Along the way Walk became a vegetarian, lost a lot of weight, and was never as effective as he was here in Phoenix.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I wouldn't say "everybody", I certainly remember him well. It's not like it was his fault but many Valley fans never forgave him for not being Alcindor. He was a very unhappy man the last time I spoke with him (early 90's). At the time he was playing wheelchair basketball for a team sponsored by the Suns and another former Suns center was coaching them (Dennis Awtrey).

And if Suns fans do the same thing to Ayton for not being Luka, they should be tarred and feathered. DA was a tip in shy of a 30-20 game last night and it was him putting in missed shots that won the game for this team. Yet the “shys away from contact” narrative keeps popping up. Its not true. You do not rebound like he does and not create contact, lots of it.

 

[Bobster]

Alvan had to play monsters because he weighed 212 pounds and had the skinniest arms on the court.

Just about every player on the opponents' rosters seemed like a monster in comparison to him.

His career Suns stats reflect longevity. His best year . . . was his first year. That is a fact.

Although Ayton looks like a monster compared to Adams, he is playing the Center position
just as soft so far. And that is a concern. Ayton is 6'11"-250 vs. Adams 6'9"-212.

I wouldn't describe Adams as "soft". "Finesse"? Yes. "Soft"? No.

Adams was a terrific player - he had a nice shooting touch, could score , rebound, pass, block shots, defend - but he was limited by two things: he was injury prone because he was always giving up about 40-50 lbs every night to whoever he was guarding, and he was in a system (John MacLeod's) where the starter's minutes were really limited.

On 2/22/1977 against Buffalo Adams had probably the greatest statistical night ever by a Sun - 47 points, 18 rebounds, 12 assists, 5 blk, 18/27 FG, 11/12 FT

 

[JCSunsfan]

I wouldn't describe Adams as "soft". "Finesse"? Yes. "Soft"? No.

Adams was a terrific player - he had a nice shooting touch, could score , rebound, pass, block shots, defend - but he was limited by two things: he was injury prone because he was always giving up about 40-50 lbs every night to whoever he was guarding, and he was in a system (John MacLeod's) where the starter's minutes were really limited.

On 2/22/1977 against Buffalo Adams had probably the greatest statistical night ever by a Sun - 47 points, 18 rebounds, 12 assists, 5 blk, 18/27 FG, 11/12 FT

This is a fair evaluation. There weren’t as many big bruisers in that day, but there were some. JC worked to build the Suns in the Celtics model and they had a versatile 6-9 (probably really 6-7) center in Dave Cowans. Looks like the Rockets and Warriors are trying to do the same thing today.

 

[Bobster]

This is a fair evaluation. There weren’t as many big bruisers in that day, but there were some. JC worked to build the Suns in the Celtics model and they had a versatile 6-9 (probably really 6-7) center in Dave Cowans. Looks like the Rockets and Warriors are trying to do the same thing today.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wes Unseld, Bob Lanier, Artis Gilmore, Bill Walton, Moses Malone, Swen Nater, Robert Parish, Marvin Webster, Clifford Ray, Elmore Smith, Darryl Dawkins.
There weren't as many big bruisers back in the day?

 

[JCSunsfan]

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wes Unseld, Bob Lanier, Artis Gilmore, Bill Walton, Moses Malone, Swen Nater, Robert Parish, Marvin Webster, Clifford Ray, Elmore Smith, Darryl Dawkins.
There weren't as many big bruisers back in the day?

I think it’s fair to say that there are more 7-0 250 plus players in the league now than when Alvan played. I have not actually counted, so I could be wrong.

 

[Bobster]

I think it’s fair to say that there are more 7-0 250 plus players in the league now than when Alvan played. I have not actually counted, so I could be wrong.

I would guess there are more unconventional small centers playing now - Drummond, Aytron, Embiid, Whiteside, Gobert, Valanciunas, Jokic, Jordan, Adams notwithstanding.

If you look at the year after the merger the established centers who didn't fit that mold were Cowens (who was extremely physical), Dan Issel, Adams and McAdoo (who was more of a PF). Pretty much all the rest of the star centers were big. What has really disappeared in the big, burly Paul Silas-Maurice Lucas-Elvin Hayes-George McGinnis-Kermit Washington power forwards who would really lean on you. Those guys are few and far between now.

 

[Mainstreet]

Today was my birthday and I was with family. 'Glad to see that the Suns won, but I maintain that
playing catch up causes stress and wears a team out.

Regarding Ayton's numbers, I would rather evaluate him on how many games he leads (or doesn't
lead) the Suns to victory. And how consistent, from quarter to quarter, his performance is (or isn't).

Happy Birthday!

Sorry I'm late.

 

[Mainstreet]

Tim Thomas is another example of who would be a good modern NBA center although he is listed at a different position. Already mentioned Alvin Adams.

 

[AzStevenCal]

If you look at the year after the merger the established centers who didn't fit that mold were Cowens (who was extremely physical), Dan Issel, Adams and McAdoo (who was more of a PF). Pretty much all the rest of the star centers were big. What has really disappeared in the big, burly Paul Silas-Maurice Lucas-Elvin Hayes-George McGinnis-Kermit Washington power forwards who would really lean on you. Those guys are few and far between now.

Sure but I think what's really disappeared is the plodders whether it's at the 4 or the 5; players such as Dale Schlueter, Dennis Awtrey, Luc Longley, Billy Paultz and so on. I think even the more talented big man such as Yao Ming and Artis Gilmore would struggle to stay relevant in today's game.

 

[GatorAZ]

It was before my time but the Suns with Kareem would’ve been a 70’s dynasty. They already had Van Arsdale and Goodrich in their prime and Phoenix was close enough to LA that he wouldn’t have felt the need to leave like Milwaukee.

Idk if the Suns would’ve still got Connie Hawkins if they had Kareem but that team would’ve been GOAT worthy.

 

[SirStefan32]

I stopped watching at the half and just finished the game now. First half was awful, but they did a great job in the second half. Ayton was a walking turnover in the first half, but he really did an amazing job in the second half. Suns need a backup point guard, and they need him today. Okobo is bad, Jerome is awful, and Carter plays defense, so he might be a good third point guard, but once Rubio goes to the bench, the team just looks terrible. For as much crap as we give Rubio, he is a solid point guard- an average point guard that makes average point guard money. Suns just need some competence behind him.