Suns fail again, Lakes again in line to win NBA Championship

[Darth Llama]

The Lakers had a worse record than the Suns. The Suns sucked last year. Hence, the Lakers also sucked. I think that is the point that was being made.

You really think the Suns sucked pre-Shaq trade? I would have to guess you're in the minority there. Didn't Phoenix have the best record in the West when they made that deal?

 

[Bufalay]

You really think the Suns sucked pre-Shaq trade? I would have to guess you're in the minority there. Didn't Phoenix have the best record in the West when they made that deal?

They weren't very good. Hence the panic trade.

 

[KloD]

The point that was being made was that the Lakers were in the top tier prior to Bynum going down. Are you actually denying that FACT? Phoenix, LA, and Boston were swapping places back and forth for best record early on. Heck, your own numbers for the 13th show it was a 2 game lead in the loss column for the Suns. You act like thats a huge margin or something. I believe the prior week the Lakers were up one. Regardless, the Lakers were a contending team with all their players healthy PRE Gasol. Deny that all you want but the FACTS do indeed prove it. Many believe that the Lakers would have been in the finals without the Gasol trade had Bynum stayed healthy. You obviously don't. So be it.

I don't think anyone, including Donald or Darth would say that Gasol was not a major reason that the Lakers made it to the finals. With Bynum out for the season and no Gasol trade the Lakers would have been mediocre at best. He came in and filled the role vacated by Bynum very well. Come on! What is your point anyway? To deny the Lakers were contenders pre Gasol? That is absurd. Or is it simply Laker hate and/or some silly conspiricy theory that Stern gifted Gasol and a trip to the finals to the Lakers?

The point being made? Is that how Laker fans make points? By making false claims? I simply showed that the statement claiming "That "turd of a team" had the best record in the NBA when Bynum went down, before they got Gasol." was 100% false and it isn't the first time I've heard Laker fans make such a claim. It's that simple. Why make such a claim when it isn't close to being true? They weren't bottom feeders, they were even above the middle of the pack, but even with Bynum sans Gasol I don't believe for one minute they would have seen the finals, let alone the conference finals.

 

[cobbler]

The point being made? Is that how Laker fans make points? By making false claims? I simply showed that the statement claiming "That "turd of a team" had the best record in the NBA when Bynum went down, before they got Gasol." was 100% false and it isn't the first time I've heard Laker fans make such a claim. It's that simple. Why make such a claim when it isn't close to being true? They weren't bottom feeders, they were even above the middle of the pack, but even with Bynum sans Gasol I don't believe for one minute they would have seen the finals, let alone the conference finals.

They were in the top 3! They had the Best record in the west the week prior. You act like they were just another team. They were far better than middle of the pack. Many people believe with a healty Bynum sans Gasol the Lakers would have made it to the finals. Many don't. I guess we will never know. Again, to suggest the Lakers were not contenders then is about as absurd and pretending the Shaq trade wasn't a horrible knee jerk reaction to the Gasol trade that took the Suns out of contention. But believe what you wish. It's all good.

 

[Darth Llama]

The point being made? Is that how Laker fans make points? By making false claims? I simply showed that the statement claiming "That "turd of a team" had the best record in the NBA when Bynum went down, before they got Gasol." was 100% false and it isn't the first time I've heard Laker fans make such a claim. It's that simple. Why make such a claim when it isn't close to being true? They weren't bottom feeders, they were even above the middle of the pack, but even with Bynum sans Gasol I don't believe for one minute they would have seen the finals, let alone the conference finals.

Look douche bag, I messed up ok? At the time they were flip flopping with the Suns for best record in the West, and confused that with best record overall. It was a mistake, it was corrected, so shut the **** up already. Jesus, like no one ever makes a mistake. You caught my **** up, now you can be proud of yourself.

Happy now?

 

[mojorizen7]

They were in the top 3! They had the Best record in the west the week prior. You act like they were just another team. They were far better than middle of the pack. Many people believe with a healty Bynum sans Gasol the Lakers would have made it to the finals. Many don't. I guess we will never know. Again, to suggest the Lakers were not contenders then is about as absurd and pretending the Shaq trade wasn't a horrible knee jerk reaction to the Gasol trade that took the Suns out of contention. But believe what you wish. It's all good.

Not true but it doesn't matter.

 

[Maligzar]

The notion that the Grizzlies gave up Gasol to the Lakers for nothing is ridiculous, Marc Gasol was a 12/8 guy in his rookie season and has a bright future in the NBA. There's been much worse one-sided deals.

The Lakers are successful because...

- it's a destination NBA city like NY, Chicago, Miami, Phoenix, Orlando, and Dallas
- their owner is more willing than most to shell out money to win (ie - paying boatloads of money for elite coaching)
- they've made shrewd trades and draft moves

We'd be just as good had we retained Joe Johnson and actually used a draft pick or two.

Pau Gasol was 17/9 his rookie season.

And Marc Gasol was 11/7 this year. You can't round up the .4 rebounds to a whole number just to try and weight your arguement. Not even getting into the fact that at the time Marc coming to the US was questionable.

Worse one-sided deals? I'd like to know of one besides Kobe for Vlade Divac. Please be sure to keep your example to an All-Star, franchise player, was traded for scraps.

There owner is willing to shell out money to win? Huh? We've consistently spent more money than the Lakers. Pay for Elite coaching?? ROFL. Pat Riley was like a broadcast guy who became an assistant and then the head coach. Phil Jackson doesn't build teams, he's only got a shot when he's got the best player in the league on his team.

Schrewd draft choices? Let's keep in mind that Kobe was a #2 pick (LOL Vladi Divac for the #2 pick in the draft????) Bynum was #10, and until the Lakers starting winning they wanted to string up their GM by his *********. I loooooove the revisionist history.

I have no idea how LA is able to pull off boondogle of a trade after boondogle. I won't be surprised if in 50 years we find out that it was fixed though.

 

[Mulli]

Kobe was drafted #13.

 

[Darth Llama]

Worse one-sided deals? I'd like to know of one besides Kobe for Vlade Divac. Please be sure to keep your example to an All-Star, franchise player, was traded for scraps.

Actually, at the time, most people thought Charlotte stuck it to the Lakers. Kobe was a high school kid and Vlade was one of the leagues better centers and a very popular player. Trading Vlade was a big gamble for LA, it wasn't like they traded a scrap center for a guranteed future all star. It wasn't like that at all.

 

[cobbler]

Pau Gasol was 17/9 his rookie season.

And Marc Gasol was 11/7 this year. You can't round up the .4 rebounds to a whole number just to try and weight your arguement. Not even getting into the fact that at the time Marc coming to the US was questionable.

Worse one-sided deals? I'd like to know of one besides Kobe for Vlade Divac. Please be sure to keep your example to an All-Star, franchise player, was traded for scraps.

There owner is willing to shell out money to win? Huh? We've consistently spent more money than the Lakers. Pay for Elite coaching?? ROFL. Pat Riley was like a broadcast guy who became an assistant and then the head coach. Phil Jackson doesn't build teams, he's only got a shot when he's got the best player in the league on his team.

Schrewd draft choices? Let's keep in mind that Kobe was a #2 pick (LOL Vladi Divac for the #2 pick in the draft????) Bynum was #10, and until the Lakers starting winning they wanted to string up their GM by his *********. I loooooove the revisionist history.

I have no idea how LA is able to pull off boondogle of a trade after boondogle. I won't be surprised if in 50 years we find out that it was fixed though.

History is littered with bad trades... Her are just a few you could easily find with a simple search.... (in no particular order) ANd there are plenty more...



Celtics traded their first overall for Robert Parrish and the Warriors' third pick in exchange for Joe Barry Carroll and Ricky Brown.

Mavericks traded Robert Traylor to the Bucks for Dirk Nowitzki.

Bucks trade Kareem Abdul-Jabbar to the Lakers for Elmore Smith, Brian Winters, Dave Meyers, and Junior Bridgeman in 1975

76ers traded Charles Barkley to the Suns for Andrew Lang, Tim Perry and Jeff Hornacek

76ers traded Wilt Chamberlain to Lakers for Jerry Chambers, Archie Clark, and Darrall Imhoff

Pistons traded Grant Hill to the Magic for Ben Wallace and Chucky Atkins

Bulls traded Elton Brand to the Clippers for Tyson Chandler.

Rockets traded Richard Jefferson, Jason Collins, and Brandon Armstrong to the Nets for Eddie Griffin

Warriors trade Mitch Richmond to Kings for Billy Owens

Trail Blazers traded the rights to Randy Foye to the Minnesota Timberwolves for the rights to Brandon Roy

Seattle Supersonics trade Scottie Pippen to Bulls for Olden Polynice


And since you are bashing the Lakers for having the luck, franchise, and location to land some good deals... lets not forget the other side now...


Lakers traded Shaquille O'Neal to the Heat for Brian Grant, Lamar Odom and Caron Butler

 

[Mulli]

Is this where I bring up Dennis Johnson for Rick Roby?

 

[KloD]

Look douche bag, I messed up ok? At the time they were flip flopping with the Suns for best record in the West, and confused that with best record overall. It was a mistake, it was corrected, so shut the **** up already. Jesus, like no one ever makes a mistake. You caught my **** up, now you can be proud of yourself.

Happy now?

Man, you are one uptight SOB. Don't get your kobe print panties in a bunch. All I did was correct your claim and defend my correction when Cobbler made a weak attempt at defending the claim. No justified reason to call me names there. If you don't like being corrected, check your facts.

 

[Mulli]

Man, you are one uptight SOB. Don't get your kobe print panties in a bunch. All I did was correct your claim and defend my correction when Cobbler made a weak attempt at defending the claim. No justified reason to call me names there. If you don't like being corrected, check your facts.

funny

 

[Maligzar]

I think that the crux of our disagreement is judging a trade as a "bad" trade compared to a "one sided" trade. Taking a few of your examples:

Celtics traded their first overall for Robert Parrish and the Warriors' third pick in exchange for Joe Barry Carroll and Ricky Brown.

Mavericks traded Robert Traylor to the Bucks for Dirk Nowitzki.

Hindsight bad trades, not /boggle from the beginning. No one at the time of these was calling out the organizations for doing an incredibly stupid move. Compared to the Pau Gasol trade, where I don't think a single person thought it was a bad idea for the Lakers.

Bucks trade Kareem Abdul-Jabbar to the Lakers for Elmore Smith, Brian Winters, Dave Meyers, and Junior Bridgeman in 1975

76ers traded Wilt Chamberlain to Lakers for Jerry Chambers, Archie Clark, and Darrall Imhoff

Kareem forced this trade. He wanted to either be in New York or LA.

Wilt also forced this trade, he wanted to be around celebrities and more white women in California.

76ers traded Charles Barkley to the Suns for Andrew Lang, Tim Perry and Jeff Hornacek

I wouldn't call this a bade trade at all. Ya know Jeff Hornacek wasn't the most flashy of players but he had a lot of game.

Pistons traded Grant Hill to the Magic for Ben Wallace and Chucky Atkins

Bulls traded Elton Brand to the Clippers for Tyson Chandler.

I don't know how you can call this a bad trade, because I'm not sure who ended up better in the end with either deal.

And since you are bashing the Lakers for having the luck, franchise, and location to land some good deals... lets not forget the other side now...


Lakers traded Shaquille O'Neal to the Heat for Brian Grant, Lamar Odom and Caron Butler

How about we not forget why this trade had to happen. Bus wasn't going to pay Shaq 20 million a year. He needed to get "something" for him or end up like the Magic.

I'm not bashing the Lakers for being lucky and products of their location. I'm simply addressing the whine at the beginning of the thread, which seems to paint this inaccurate picture of the Laker organization. It's not like they are the Patriots and actually made schrewd roster moves, draft picks, and front office changes to be successful. It's not like they did what the Chicago Bulls did.

If the Lakers were still located in Minnesota they would not of had the same success.

 

[cobbler]

I think that the crux of our disagreement is judging a trade as a "bad" trade compared to a "one sided" trade. Taking a few of your examples:


Hindsight bad trades, not /boggle from the beginning. No one at the time of these was calling out the organizations for doing an incredibly stupid move. Compared to the Pau Gasol trade, where I don't think a single person thought it was a bad idea for the Lakers.

Kareem forced this trade. He wanted to either be in New York or LA.

Wilt also forced this trade, he wanted to be around celebrities and more white women in California.

I wouldn't call this a bade trade at all. Ya know Jeff Hornacek wasn't the most flashy of players but he had a lot of game.


I don't know how you can call this a bad trade, because I'm not sure who ended up better in the end with either deal.

How about we not forget why this trade had to happen. Bus wasn't going to pay Shaq 20 million a year. He needed to get "something" for him or end up like the Magic.

I'm not bashing the Lakers for being lucky and products of their location. I'm simply addressing the whine at the beginning of the thread, which seems to paint this inaccurate picture of the Laker organization. It's not like they are the Patriots and actually made schrewd roster moves, draft picks, and front office changes to be successful. It's not like they did what the Chicago Bulls did.

If the Lakers were still located in Minnesota they would not of had the same success.

What does it matter if a player forces the trade, the GM, or the owner. A bad or lopsided trade is a bad or lopsided trade. I know I could research and find a lot more. I simply googled and tossed them in a post in 3 mins.

There is no doubt it was a good trade for the Lakers. But if eveyone takes off their Laker hater glasses for one moment they would realize it was also a trade that benefited the Grizz. They got what they wanted. Cap space and young talent. I argued the value of Marc Gasol on this forum back then and was vilified even though the Grizz verified that he was a key piece in the deal for them. And look what happened. One of the top 5 rookies with a bright future and upside. Go figure! The Grizz now have a very young nucleus of good players and can develop into a very decent team in the next few years. They have followed the Portland model.

Everyone also points out the "All Star" moniker. Gasol wasn't chosen an all star until this year. And of course let's not forget all the Gasoft comments and everyone bashing him in the finals. Regardless of any viewpoint at any particular moment, the trade was good for the Lakers. The lakers were good prior to the trade as well and there have been many other trades over the years that were just as lopsided.

To suggest the Lakers have had their sucess without making shrewd
roster moves and draft picks is pure stupidity.

Bynum - Draft pick
Farmar - Draft pick
Sasha - Draft pick
Walton - Draft pick
Ariza - Shrewd roster move
Powell - FA signing
Mbenga - FA signing
Fisher - FA signing
Brown - Throw in with a roster move to dump salary

All contribuing to a team expected to contend for the title.

 

[Maligzar]

You're making an arguement in a bubble while ignoring the orignal poster and comments; which is the context that you draw my comments from.

What does it matter if a player forces the trade, the GM, or the owner. A bad or lopsided trade is a bad or lopsided trade. I know I could research and find a lot more. I simply googled and tossed them in a post in 3 mins.

You couldn't or you already would have, again there is no need to try and weight your arguement. Allow the facts to stand on their own and let people decide. Your examples that you provided were fairly poor, and as I pointed out not always a "bad" trade.

Not to mention they are all void of "Franchise player for trash"; I mean speak all you want about the greatness of Mac Gasol but his numbers are highly inflated considering the team that he is on. He's 7'1 and brings down 7 boards a game?? Come on... Amare is 20/9 and we get on him all the time for not rebounding enough.

To suggest the Lakers have had their sucess without making shrewd
roster moves and draft picks is pure stupidity.

A wonderful discussion mechanism no doubt, "if you disagree with me you are stupid".

I could say "to credit the Lakers with more screwd draft choices than the majority of the league is pure stupidity." and be just as right. Using your examples:

Bynum - Draft pick

#10 choice overall. The Suns picked Amare the last time they had this good of a pick

Farmar - Draft pick
Sasha - Draft pick
Walton - Draft pick

Farmar and Sasha were both unavailable to the Suns.

Further...

2004 (Sasha) we traded for that Atlanta pick; which with our 20/20 hindsight vision was obviously a mistake; but for a period of time it looked like genious.

2003 (Walton) we ended up drafting Barbosa and Zarko that year. Zarko was a bust, but I honestly believe that had a lot to do with his injury. In any event I'll take LB over Walton.

Your example here spans 2003-2006. During this time the Lakers also drafted Brian Cook, Marcus Douthit, Ronny Turiaf, Von Wafer, Cheik Samb and J.R. Pinnock. Turiaf was a good one, but the rest were crap.

Ariza - Shrewd roster move
Powell - FA signing
Mbenga - FA signing
Fisher - FA signing
Brown - Throw in with a roster move to dump salary

Fisher? Are you kidding me?? The guy that broke his contract with Utah so he could be in LA where his daughter is getting medical care? Thanks for pointing out yet ANOTHER bizarre situation that benefits LA.

I'll give you Ariza, that was a nice trade.

All contribuing to a team expected to contend for the title.

They would all be contributing to a first round exit if it wasn't for the Gasol deal. You could surround Kobe/Gasol/Odom/Bynum with 70% of the players in the league and end up with the same results.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Pau Gasol was 17/9 his rookie season.

That's irrelevant.

And Marc Gasol was 11/7 this year. You can't round up the .4 rebounds to a whole number just to try and weight your arguement. Not even getting into the fact that at the time Marc coming to the US was questionable.

People generally do round up to whole numbers in life. But fine, I'll amend my argument tom 11.9/7.4/1.7 just to make you happy. And M. Gasol came to the US so your second point is moot and makes the Grizz look less dumb.

Worse one-sided deals? I'd like to know of one besides Kobe for Vlade Divac. Please be sure to keep your example to an All-Star, franchise player, was traded for scraps.

The Laker fans on this board covered that for me, but I'll toss in another just last season - Mike Bibby to Atlanta who's a very good player and overnight made the Hawks legitimate in the East and the Kings came away with absolutely nada. Teams make lopsided deals all the time to shed salary.

There owner is willing to shell out money to win? Huh? We've consistently spent more money than the Lakers. Pay for Elite coaching?? ROFL. Pat Riley was like a broadcast guy who became an assistant and then the head coach. Phil Jackson doesn't build teams, he's only got a shot when he's got the best player in the league on his team.

The Lakers are shelling out $10 million a year for Phil Jackson while all the Suns do during seemingly every coaching search is pick some gritty overachieving ex-NBA point guard (Ainge, Westphal, Skiles, Porter, FJ) and plug them into the head coaching position.

Schrewd draft choices? Let's keep in mind that Kobe was a #2 pick (LOL Vladi Divac for the #2 pick in the draft????) Bynum was #10, and until the Lakers starting winning they wanted to string up their GM by his *********. I loooooove the revisionist history.

So what you're trying to say is that every time the Lakers pick in the top 15 they get it right? Not too many teams you could say that about including the Suns who have managed to botch two of those in the last few years one of which cost us a title.

I have no idea how LA is able to pull off boondogle of a trade after boondogle. I won't be surprised if in 50 years we find out that it was fixed though.

Ah yes, the infamous boogeyman that prevents the Suns from winning a championship. The persecution complex of way too many Suns fans is a big reason this franchise has never won a title.

 

[Cheesewater]

The persecution complex of way too many Suns fans is a big reason this franchise has never won a title.

Way to lose all credibility there.

 

[cobbler]

You're making an arguement in a bubble while ignoring the orignal poster and comments; which is the context that you draw my comments from.

You couldn't or you already would have, again there is no need to try and weight your arguement. Allow the facts to stand on their own and let people decide. Your examples that you provided were fairly poor, and as I pointed out not always a "bad" trade.

Weight your argument? There was no argument. You asked to see other trades for all star calliber players that were lopsided. I showed you some with a simple google search. Nothing more.

Not to mention they are all void of "Franchise player for trash"; I mean speak all you want about the greatness of Mac Gasol but his numbers are highly inflated considering the team that he is on. He's 7'1 and brings down 7 boards a game?? Come on... Amare is 20/9 and we get on him all the time for not rebounding enough..

I don't believe the word greatness was used. He's a rookie with potential and i believe I stated that. Amare is "considered" a franchise player. Come on.

And let me get this straight, you are saying Pau is a franchise player and Wilt, Jabbar, Jefferson, and Pippen are not?

A wonderful discussion mechanism no doubt, "if you disagree with me you are stupid" .

The Lakers have done very well drafting in the late 2nd round with players , and this is where the suns have gone wrong, they played and developed. Those players are all now contributing. If i offended you with the stupidity comment then I apologize.

I could say "to credit the Lakers with more screwd draft choices than the majority of the league is pure stupidity." and be just as right. Using your examples:

#10 choice overall. The Suns picked Amare the last time they had this good of a pick.

Not sure of your point here. I believe when all is said and done Bynum will have a more productive and valuable career. Only time will tell. Amare's defensive woe's will always impact his overall value.

The Lakers went from a lottery team to a title contender in 4 years. They have done it several times too. But hey, that is no doubt to their location and the gifts and has nothing to do with their scouting, drafting, or trading abilities.

Farmar and Sasha were both unavailable to the Suns.

Further...

2004 (Sasha) we traded for that Atlanta pick; which with our 20/20 hindsight vision was obviously a mistake; but for a period of time it looked like genious.

2003 (Walton) we ended up drafting Barbosa and Zarko that year. Zarko was a bust, but I honestly believe that had a lot to do with his injury. In any event I'll take LB over Walton. .

What does the availability to the suns have to do with the Lakers and their choices? My point was that the lakers have built a championship team with their picks and drafts. Were better individual players possibly available? Of course. Isn't there something to be said for getting the players that will fit in your system and play the roles required?

Your example here spans 2003-2006. During this time the Lakers also drafted Brian Cook, Marcus Douthit, Ronny Turiaf, Von Wafer, Cheik Samb and J.R. Pinnock. Turiaf was a good one, but the rest were crap. .

Cook and Evans (another nice trade for a future draft pick) landed us Ariza. Von Wafer who i liked was let go and is playing quite well for Houston.

Fisher? Are you kidding me?? The guy that broke his contract with Utah so he could be in LA where his daughter is getting medical care? Thanks for pointing out yet ANOTHER bizarre situation that benefits LA. .

Broke or asked out and the ownership complied?

They would all be contributing to a first round exit if it wasn't for the Gasol deal. You could surround Kobe/Gasol/Odom/Bynum with 70% of the players in the league and end up with the same results.

Now we are back to the same old argument. So you are saying that with Bynum and the rest of the team healthy, sans Gasol, the Lakers would be looking at a first round exit? Clearly, you have no clue. Is that you Stevie K?

 

[arwillan]

Pau Gasol was 17/9 his rookie season.

And Marc Gasol was 11/7 this year. You can't round up the .4 rebounds to a whole number just to try and weight your arguement. Not even getting into the fact that at the time Marc coming to the US was questionable.

Worse one-sided deals? I'd like to know of one besides Kobe for Vlade Divac. Please be sure to keep your example to an All-Star, franchise player, was traded for scraps.

There owner is willing to shell out money to win? Huh? We've consistently spent more money than the Lakers. Pay for Elite coaching?? ROFL. Pat Riley was like a broadcast guy who became an assistant and then the head coach. Phil Jackson doesn't build teams, he's only got a shot when he's got the best player in the league on his team.

Schrewd draft choices? Let's keep in mind that Kobe was a #2 pick (LOL Vladi Divac for the #2 pick in the draft????) Bynum was #10, and until the Lakers starting winning they wanted to string up their GM by his *********. I loooooove the revisionist history.

I have no idea how LA is able to pull off boondogle of a trade after boondogle. I won't be surprised if in 50 years we find out that it was fixed though.

You lost all credibility when you claimed Kobe was a #2 pick.

 

[Mulli]

You lost all credibility when you claimed Kobe was a #2 pick.

He loves revisionist history.



kidding

 

[Bufalay]

Bynum - Draft pick
Farmar - Draft pick
Sasha - Draft pick
Walton - Draft pick
Ariza - Shrewd roster move
Powell - FA signing
Mbenga - FA signing
Fisher - FA signing
Brown - Throw in with a roster move to dump salary

Freakin' All-Star team right there.

 

[cobbler]

Freakin' All-Star team right there.

Nope... Freakin' Quality role players developend into a system and coached into a championship contending team.