Suns fall to Kings, question tough calls

[azdad1978]

Paul Coro
The Arizona Republic
Nov. 7, 2005 12:00 AM

The Suns have not changed all that much. There are still plenty of wows and they still fare better on the road.

At the end of another exhilarating home loss Sunday, it was hard for the Suns to focus on misdeeds like letting Peja Stojakovic score 23 in the third quarter, giving up 20 offensive rebounds or having four missed shots and two turnovers in the final three minutes of a 118-117 loss to Sacramento.

Phoenix was too frustrated with what happened after Leandro Barbosa, playing in the Suns' closing five with fellow reserve Boris Diaw, nailed a three-pointer for a 117-116 lead with 21.5 seconds to play.



Kurt Thomas blocked a Shareef Abdur-Rahim baseline dunk attempt but Abdur-Rahim gathered the loose ball and went back up. He missed, but Thomas was called for his sixth foul, a whistle that even Abdur-Rahim seemed to consider a gift. Thomas said he did not foul him.

"I'm happy the referee called the foul," Abdur-Rahim said when asked if he was fouled. "All that stuff right at the end can go either way."

Abdur-Rahim hit both shots, leaving Phoenix 13.3 seconds to find a game-winning shot. Barbosa penetrated and pulled up, but passed on an open short jumper to dump a pass into Diaw under the basket. Diaw missed inside on another disputed play, but Phoenix got the ball back with 0.7 seconds. The Suns were running a slip play for Steve Nash to pop out from a back pick but had to call a time out when Abdur-Rahim would not let Nash get loose.

"Yeah, a bear hug," Nash said.

Out of timeouts, Phoenix called the play for Brian Grant to pop out.

Every Kings player covered other shooters, as expected, but Grant missed as he started off-kilter when his foot got caught in the stack.

"I still had a great look," said Grant, who had made 9 of 10 shots this season until then. "At my age, you like to get in that situation again. Then it's like, 'Damn, there it is.' You wish you could get it back."

The Suns, 0-2 at home and 2-0 away, have three off-days to stew before hosting Detroit, just as Sacramento came in after three off days following an 0-2 start. Stojakovic and Mike Bibby came into Sunday's game off a frigid preseason and 13 for 49 combined shooting in the first two games.

"When they come into town and haven't made a shot for six months, you can see it coming," Nash said.

The pair combined for 52 as Stojakovic went 13 for 21 from the field despite missing his first three shots and his last three shots. The Kings looked like last year's Suns, leaning hard on their starting five.

Sacramento rode Stojakovic to turnaround a five-point halftime deficit and lead by as much as 13 early in the fourth. The Suns bench responded with a 9-0 run, as Eddie House's point-a-minute tempo and Diaw's near triple-double were as key as Barbosa's speed.



The game left Suns coach Mike D'Antoni mystified.

"I don't know if we blew it or they won it," he said.
View from Press Row
During camp, Boris Diaw was nearly out of the rotation before being switched to a playmaking power forward role. On Sunday, he was one rebound shy of a triple-double off the bench. Last season, Leandro Barbosa often did not finish games even when Steve Nash was hurt. On Sunday, he played the whole fourth quarter and scored 12 in it. The options will prove helpful for Phoenix.

- Paul Coro


http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/1107suns1107.html

 

[Mainstreet]

Near the end of the game I did not see anything (certainly not a foul), but KT battling Abdur-Rahim for possession of the ball. However, I did clearly see Diaw fouled near the end of the game on the upper arm when he tried to do a reverse layup which would probably have won the game for Phoenix. I remarked to my wife, "why the no-call" on such an obvious foul. I seen an opposing player grab his arm.

All I ask is that the referees be consistent and make the calls at both ends of the court.

Also doesn't a foul (the bear hug on Nash) before the ball is in-bounded consititute a techical foul or such. It seems like it used to be the case.

 

[Dr. Dumas]

Near the end of the game I did not see anything (certainly not a foul), but KT battling Abdur-Rahim for possession of the ball. However, I did clearly see Diaw fouled near the end of the game on the upper arm when he tried to do a reverse layup which would probably have won the game for Phoenix. I remarked to my wife, "why the no-call" on such an obvious foul. I seen an opposing player grab his arm.

All I ask is that the referees be consistent and make the calls at both ends of the court.

Also doesn't a foul (the bear hug on Nash) before the ball is in-bounded consititute a techical foul or such. It seems like it used to be the case.

I completly agrre with this. There should have been no call on KT on that play. But since they made the call, you would expect that the ref's would be looking at the next Suns possion very closely for any type of foul. It was very clear to me that Diaw was fouled on the next play. Of course there was no thing called.

People can say all they want about the lack of offensive rebounding, but when the ref's don't call the fouls like in this case, this pretty much sums up the game for me.

 

[elindholm]

Have we turned into Kings fans?

This complaining about the officiating turns my stomach. The Suns lost. Be an adult and move on.

 

[Dr. Dumas]

Have we turned into Kings fans?

This complaining about the officiating turns my stomach. The Suns lost. Be an adult and move on.

First thing-I thought that there were a bunch of positives from this game. I like how the team is shapping up and geling so fast.

I have never complained about the officiating in the past, so if I want to make a comment about it this one time, I don't need you to tell me I'm turning into a Kings fan and to be an adult about it.

In my opinon, the game was lost on the KT foul, and the no call for Diaw. All I'm asking for is that the ref's be consistant with the fouls.

If your take on the game is different, then fine. No need to start balsting people for their differences on opinions. I treat people with respect on this board, and I would ask that you do the same.

 

[elindholm]

Fair enough. I should not have been disrespectful.

But consistency is in the eye of the beholder. No two plays are the same, so asking for "consistency" on both ends of the court is an empty plea. The sequence where Abdur-Rahim drew a foul was so chaotic, I don't really see how anyone can claim that it was clean. All we know is that Thomas complained and that the inside officials didn't see anything that they felt worthy of a whistle. But does that mean that there was no foul? Hardly.

As for the Diaw play, the contact didn't look unusual to me considering that it was right under the basket in the closing seconds. I watched the replay only once, but I thought that Diaw's shooting arm was free, so maybe it was his off arm that people are saying was grabbed. In any case, we can't say that decided the game, because Diaw is a terrible free-throw shooter and frankly I'd be surprised if he made either attempt in that situation. In the best case scenario, it would have gone into overtime, with Thomas fouled out, Nash running on fumes, and no one able to slow down Abdur-Rahim or get a rebound.

There are dozens of close calls in any NBA game. The circumstances are all so different that the concept of "consistency" is almost meaningless. We make fun of opposing fans when the gripe about calls in a close game, as we should, because it is the easiest whine in the book. It would be one thing if there was a blatantly blown call in the final seconds, but I didn't see that -- I saw two borderline plays that both happened to go in the visitors' favor.

And the main point is that the Suns, overall, played badly. The individual wins and losses don't matter to this team at this stage; they need to focus on playing well and finding chemistry. They will probably get a low playoff seed, and then it's all up to whether Stoudemire can have an impact and whether the "half-court specialists" -- particularly Thomas, who looks awful right now -- can thrive in the different sport that is playoff basketball.

 

[Dr. Dumas]

Fair enough. I should not have been disrespectful.

But consistency is in the eye of the beholder. No two plays are the same, so asking for "consistency" on both ends of the court is an empty plea. The sequence where Abdur-Rahim drew a foul was so chaotic, I don't really see how anyone can claim that it was clean. All we know is that Thomas complained and that the inside officials didn't see anything that they felt worthy of a whistle. But does that mean that there was no foul? Hardly.

I think that the two refs facing the play should be able to make the correct call regarding a foul or not. If those two refs make no call, but the ref farthest from the play does, it always looks bad in my eyes.

As for the Diaw play, the contact didn't look unusual to me considering that it was right under the basket in the closing seconds. I watched the replay only once, but I thought that Diaw's shooting arm was free, so maybe it was his off arm that people are saying was grabbed. In any case, we can't say that decided the game, because Diaw is a terrible free-throw shooter and frankly I'd be surprised if he made either attempt in that situation. In the best case scenario, it would have gone into overtime, with Thomas fouled out, Nash running on fumes, and no one able to slow down Abdur-Rahim or get a rebound.

You are using the case that the diaw play didn't look anything out of the ordinary regarding physical play in the closing seconds of a game. And you are correct, the refs usually let people get away with more physical stuff(hence the Nash bear-hug). But the KT foul was called right before the Diaw no call, which was still at the very end of the game.

There are dozens of close calls in any NBA game. The circumstances are all so different that the concept of "consistency" is almost meaningless. We make fun of opposing fans when the gripe about calls in a close game, as we should, because it is the easiest whine in the book. It would be one thing if there was a blatantly blown call in the final seconds, but I didn't see that -- I saw two borderline plays that both happened to go in the visitors' favor.

It's your opinion that they were boarderline calls. My take was different; we will just leave it at that.

And the main point is that the Suns, overall, played badly. The individual wins and losses don't matter to this team at this stage; they need to focus on playing well and finding chemistry. They will probably get a low playoff seed, and then it's all up to whether Stoudemire can have an impact and whether the "half-court specialists" -- particularly Thomas, who looks awful right now -- can thrive in the different sport that is playoff basketball.

I agree with this. As a team, they should be looking to get better as a team with less focus on the W's and L's. As a fan, it's hard for myself to take this view, because I expect wins on every game, lol.

 

[nowagimp]

Fair enough. I should not have been disrespectful.

But consistency is in the eye of the beholder. No two plays are the same, so asking for "consistency" on both ends of the court is an empty plea. The sequence where Abdur-Rahim drew a foul was so chaotic, I don't really see how anyone can claim that it was clean. All we know is that Thomas complained and that the inside officials didn't see anything that they felt worthy of a whistle. But does that mean that there was no foul? Hardly.

As for the Diaw play, the contact didn't look unusual to me considering that it was right under the basket in the closing seconds. I watched the replay only once, but I thought that Diaw's shooting arm was free, so maybe it was his off arm that people are saying was grabbed. In any case, we can't say that decided the game, because Diaw is a terrible free-throw shooter and frankly I'd be surprised if he made either attempt in that situation. In the best case scenario, it would have gone into overtime, with Thomas fouled out, Nash running on fumes, and no one able to slow down Abdur-Rahim or get a rebound.

There are dozens of close calls in any NBA game. The circumstances are all so different that the concept of "consistency" is almost meaningless. We make fun of opposing fans when the gripe about calls in a close game, as we should, because it is the easiest whine in the book. It would be one thing if there was a blatantly blown call in the final seconds, but I didn't see that -- I saw two borderline plays that both happened to go in the visitors' favor.

And the main point is that the Suns, overall, played badly. The individual wins and losses don't matter to this team at this stage; they need to focus on playing well and finding chemistry. They will probably get a low playoff seed, and then it's all up to whether Stoudemire can have an impact and whether the "half-court specialists" -- particularly Thomas, who looks awful right now -- can thrive in the different sport that is playoff basketball.

First of all, there were three blown calls including the Thomas foul (look at the replay, no contact), the grab of Diaw and the holding of nash, which puts a 90% free throw shooter at the line, all in the space of the final 14 seconds?

Second, the suns didn't just play badly, it is not that simple. An x time all-star(Peja) got hot and lit them for 33, which he has done to others. Bibby played well also, after a lousy season start(he is not that bad). Abdur Raheem was getting body contact calls that Marion almost never gets, oh well, this is the NBA. Sometimes they say you initiate the contact and sometimes you get the foul. Team chemistry, with 35 assists had some bright spots, though team defense was poor. Dallas beat the Spurs and no one is saying that the Spurs played poor defense though Dirk lit them up for 34. The Mavs shot 50.6% against the mighty spurs defense. Oh yeah, it was a back to back game for the spurs and not the mavs.

Third, this was the second of back to back games for the Suns but not the Kings, so we likely didn't have as much steam in the second half(especially Marion, Nash and Thomas). This is one of the things about the NBA that is a joke: One team fresh and the other played last night making the match less physically even . Yes, if the Mavs can beat the spurs, the Kings can beat the Suns in a back to back. Actually, the kings/suns game was alot closer than the spurs/mavs game on friday.

 

[Chaz]

I didn't see the foul called on KT and I didn't see a foul that wasn't called on Diaw.

Tough break.

Next time play better defense in the 3rd quarter and it may not come down to that.

Still they had a chance at the last shot.

The refs didn't decide this game and the Suns are not picked on by the refs any more than any other team.

 

[jbeecham]

I didn't see the foul called on KT and I didn't see a foul that wasn't called on Diaw.

Tough break.

Next time play better defense in the 3rd quarter and it may not come down to that.

Still they had a chance at the last shot.

The refs didn't decide this game and the Suns are not picked on by the refs any more than any other team.

What about Nash getting bear-hugged by SAR on the inbounds play with 0.7 seconds to go.......did you see that? There are hundreds of games that end with teams winning by 1 pt every season and how the refs call the games at the end has a great effect on the outcome. We were up by 1 and had 3 calls/non-calls go against us in the final 10 seconds and we lost. The refs didn't just suck in the final 10 seconds either, Nash had 4 fouls about 14 minutes into the game and 3 of them were ticky-tack or bogus (the Bibby flop for a charge). Meanwhile, the MVP of the league has to beg to get a call in his favor and he has guys hand checking and slapping down on his arms all night........so much for star treatment.

I bitch about the refs more than anyone else on the board so I've been trying to restrain myself so far this season, but when the Suns players are coming out and complaining then you know that it's bad. These guys can be fined thousands of dollars for complaining about the refs and they felt strongly enough about it to make comments in their post game quotes. I guess the Suns players must be Kings fans.

 

[Chaz]

What about Nash getting bear-hugged by SAR on the inbounds play with 0.7 seconds to go.......did you see that?

Yes I did.

Nash should have flopped.

 

[jbeecham]

He probably should have flopped. That seems to be the only way the refs actually see a foul is if somebody gets knocked to the ground (or jumps to the ground). Flopping exists because of the ineptitude of the refs to actually see and call fouls. Players feel they have to force the refs to make the call and the Suns just don't seem to believe in overexaggerating the contact. Or in Amare's case, he's too hard to allow someone to knock him down so he's rather get a blocking foul than take the charge.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Whether or not the refs blew some calls in the last 30 seconds doesn't mean that they controlled the game.

The fact is the Suns didn't keep the Kings off the offensive boards all night long. It is simply too hard to win a game when a team gets so many second and third chances.

Thomas blocked SAR's first attempt, and then no one went for the rebound




People try to pin losses on one individual sequence of events which you just can't do. All 3 of the fouls should have been no calls at the end of the game, and only 2 of them were. It just so happens that the Kings got the 1 call - it happens. Perhaps next time we should get better control of the game so we don't give officiating a chance to dictate the winner.

 

[Chaz]

:notworthy

People try to pin losses on one individual sequence of events which you just can't do. All 3 of the fouls should have been no calls at the end of the game, and only 2 of them were. It just so happens that the Kings got the 1 call - it happens. Perhaps next time we should get better control of the game so we don't give officiating a chance to dictate the winner.

 

[jibikao]

He probably should have flopped. That seems to be the only way the refs actually see a foul is if somebody gets knocked to the ground (or jumps to the ground). Flopping exists because of the ineptitude of the refs to actually see and call fouls. Players feel they have to force the refs to make the call and the Suns just don't seem to believe in overexaggerating the contact. Or in Amare's case, he's too hard to allow someone to knock him down so he's rather get a blocking foul than take the charge.

Actually, not so famous players usually flop to get calls. lol Nash gets away with "other" stuff, so he doesn't get nearly enough FT like... Kobe, Duncan?? lol

I didn't watch the game but sounds like the last 30s is quite choatic. Wasn't they play at HOME??? lol

 

[Errntknght]

elindholm, "As for the Diaw play, the contact didn't look unusual to me considering that it was right under the basket in the closing seconds. I watched the replay only once, but I thought that Diaw's shooting arm was free, so maybe it was his off arm that people are saying was grabbed."

I recorded the game too and from the camera angle of the play in sequence I couldn't see the foul either even after I knew it had taken place. The replay was taken from the baseline and it showed Bibby going up very high before Diaw and sharply slapping, not grabbing, his shooting arm on his way down - Diaw was just starting to go up.


"In any case, we can't say that decided the game, because Diaw is a terrible free-throw shooter and frankly I'd be surprised if he made either attempt in that situation. In the best case scenario, it would have gone into overtime, with Thomas fouled out, Nash running on fumes, and no one able to slow down Abdur-Rahim or get a rebound."

Normally, Nash would be running on fumes at this point but he wasn't in this game as he'd only played thirty minutes.


"There are dozens of close calls in any NBA game. The circumstances are all so different that the concept of "consistency" is almost meaningless."

I have to disagree with you on the concept being meaningless. The circumstances vary some but there are many situations that repeat over and over in the course of the game. You'd like the refs to call them the same way from one instance to the next on both ends of the floor. And like all the refs to call them about the same way. In fact, I'm sure the referees would agree that is what they are supposed to do and what they try to do. We know for a fact that the referees as a group are instructed by the league in guidelines they should follow in making certain calls. In other words they understand the concept of being consistent in their calls.

I do agree with the statement you made in an earlier post that listening to people piss and moan all the time about the refs gets tiresome. I don't mind the players doing it too much because if they really get tired of it they might start playing in a way that gets them more calls and that's by taking the ball strong to the hoop more often.

As I said in another post I think this loss belongs on the shoulders of JJones because he made no effort to rebound.

 

[Mainstreet]

As for the Diaw play, the contact didn't look unusual to me considering that it was right under the basket in the closing seconds. I watched the replay only once, but I thought that Diaw's shooting arm was free, so maybe it was his off arm that people are saying was grabbed. In any case, we can't say that decided the game, because Diaw is a terrible free-throw shooter and frankly I'd be surprised if he made either attempt in that situation. In the best case scenario, it would have gone into overtime, with Thomas fouled out, Nash running on fumes, and no one able to slow down Abdur-Rahim or get a rebound.

Elindholm, the game is over. There's no argument there. However did my eyes deceive me? I thought Diaw was grabbed or slapped on the arm (either arm) when he was going up for a reverse layup. If so, that was a foul and a shooting foul at that. I still remember Diaw's look of disbelief that a foul was not called on the play.

As I did not have a chance of seeing a replay of Diaw going for the reverse layup attempt I can only rely on my memory (which sometimes can be wrong). IMO, he was clearly in the act of shooting.

I just would like for someone to look at the replay of Diaw in the closing seconds going for the reverse layup attempt and tell me (as impartially as possible) whether he was fouled or not for my own peace of mind.

Again, the game is over. I would just like confirmation (or lack thereof) that he was fouled on the play because that is the image in my mind. Perhaps my eyesight and memory fail me now.

 

[elindholm]

Like I say, I watched the replay only once. Errntknght said he saw Bibby grab Diaw's arm, and he sounds pretty specific about it, so my guess is that it happened. However, it looked to me that Diaw still had control of the ball as he was going up, even if he was fouled. The rule of thumb is that you have to go up strong in a situation like that, and Diaw didn't.

I'm not sure what the big deal is. I think it's very likely that there was contact -- there almost always is, somewhere -- and it may have affected Diaw's timing or release. I didn't see it, but maybe I wasn't looking in the right place. I think if he had gotten really clobbered, it would have been tough for me to miss.

 

[Drop D]

I just watched the replay in super slow motion. Diaw was going up with the right hand. Bibby slapped Diaw's right elbow as Bibby was coming down. It is debatable whether Bibby caused Diaw to loose control of the ball. It was still more convincing than the weak ass call that SAR was the beneficiary of.

 

[Drop D]

Like I say, I watched the replay only once.

Just ask Diaw. I'm sure that he saw that play replayed in his head over and over that night.

I'm not too worried about the Suns. Just aggrevated by the officiating this year. Boy, I miss Amare.

 

[CaptainInsano]

Just ask Diaw. I'm sure that he saw that play replayed in his head over and over that night.

I'm not too worried about the Suns. Just aggrevated by the officiating this year. Boy, I miss Amare.

We all do, his ferocious dunks and expert footwork were awesome to watch. Then I went and loaded up his bio and watched as he would score 40 on nights when our offense was off and allowed us to artillary 3 pointers everywhere.

At least another team doesn't have him. Look at it that way.