Suns @ Grizzlies Saturday 11-2-19 game thread

[AzStevenCal]

I would like to point out that while Rubio is certainly not a good shooter, he is quite a bit better historically than we have seen so far this season. I would expect his FG% to rise up into the 40s and his 3P% to potentially rise to around 32-33%. Still not going to make him a major shooting threat by any means, but it means he will at least make the opponent pay a decent amount of times that he is left open.

It's my understanding he goes through stretches where he loses his confidence and stifles his team's offense by not even trying to make the D pay when he is wide open. And then something will happen and all of a sudden he shoots a good percentage for a stretch of games.

 

[AzStevenCal]

When defenses rotate off of Rubio he often drives to the basket and either shoots, gets fouled or passes to an open shooter.

Yeah and right now, driving to the basket or driving and then kicking the ball out seem to be his strength. I'm less impressed by his occasional pull up shot in the lane, it's not as bad as his current 3 point shooting but he still seems to struggle.

 

[Finito]

Agreed. But we're playing in an era where most teams need shooting from their PG and without it their spacing collapses. Right now we're getting by without him being an outside threat but I'm quite sure that will change during the season as most teams actually start scouting us. Hopefully it won't be enough to turn him into a negative. Once Ayton returns there's no reason they can't become one of the best pick and roll tandems which should help make up for Ricky not being a viable threat on the perimeter.

It’s not that they need shooting from the PG it’s just the era we live in

the 76ers have Ben Simmons handling the ball and he can’t shoot to save his life.

Rubio has been what he’s been for years now trust me teams no how to play him but his defense and playmaking are above average and that’s why he’s always been a starter. He’s not a star but he’s the next best thing

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

They have plenty of info on most of the individual players but this is a team sport. I've made plenty of silly comments in my life, I don't believe this is one of them.

So . . . you think teams aren’t sagging off Rubio at present? I’ve watched every game so far. It’s exactly what I see. Sagging and going under picks. Not much else to adjust defensively on him.

 

[1Sun]

If you don’t take that game away (because why would you do that?) he’s shooting 47%.

Because that game was clearly an aberration.

 

[Proximo]

It’s not that they need shooting from the PG it’s just the era we live in

the 76ers have Ben Simmons handling the ball and he can’t shoot to save his life.

Rubio has been what he’s been for years now trust me teams no how to play him but his defense and playmaking are above average and that’s why he’s always been a starter. He’s not a star but he’s the next best thing

Yeah but ben simmons is about the best slasher/finisher in the league. He really should be a forward not a guard.

 

[Mainstreet]

So . . . you think teams aren’t sagging off Rubio at present? I’ve watched every game so far. It’s exactly what I see. Sagging and going under picks. Not much else to adjust defensively on him.

I kept asking myself why teams don't ignore Rubio outside but opponents must honor his passing and drives to the basket. Rubio will pick a team apart if he is ignored.

 

[AzStevenCal]

So . . . you think teams aren’t sagging off Rubio at present? I’ve watched every game so far. It’s exactly what I see. Sagging and going under picks. Not much else to adjust defensively on him.

Of course they are, that was so not my point. I was talking about how they play us as a team, not how they play any one player. And they can keep sagging off Rubio as long as other players are still getting wide open looks. But I'm pretty sure we'll see teams figure out how to take away some of those wide open looks and that's when Rubio's 3 point shooting becomes a real issue.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Of course they are, that was so not my point. I was talking about how they play us as a team, not how they play any one player. And they can keep sagging off Rubio as long as other players are still getting wide open looks. But I'm pretty sure we'll see teams figure out how to take away some of those wide open looks and that's when Rubio's 3 point shooting becomes a real issue.

Not really. It’s all about adjustments and counter adjustments. If they’re playing us outside-in to cover the shooters and rubios man is helping then Rubio cuts and gets layups. The only way rubios shooting hurts us is when we don’t have shooters on the floor and rubios defender is capable of completely locking him up. That hasn’t happened thus far. When you surround him with shooters his ability to get the hole pulls a help defender, at which point the ball goes out and rotates to the open shooter - hence the importance of keeping him surrounded with shooters (baynes, kaminsky, book, bridges, oubre, saric, cam, Carter, Tyler thus far have all hit threes - it’s how this team is built aside from Ayton and Rubio). It’s why we see defenses scrambling so often against us, because unless everyone stays home there will always be an open shooter the bank just needs to find him. If Rubio was incapable of driving it would be deadly to the offense - but if he could neither drive nor shoot he just wouldn’t be a starter in the league.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Overpaying Rubio is making James Jones look like a freaking genius

Only the most cynical thought the Rubio signing was an overpay.

When I saw the terms, I thought it was market value for a mid level starting PG. I was actually pleased that they didnt overpay. Very reasonable contract for both sides.

I said it at the time, and I know it wasnt a popular opinion, but Jones made moves that improved the team depth throughout.

Alot of you were wrong. I hate to do an "I told you so", but my observation of last years Suns teams is that they were short about 4 NBA level players. I know @SirStefan32 agreed with my take.

Jones could see this problem. One "star" or borderline star wouldnt have had the impact that adding 4 or 5 good NBA players would add.

 

[Finito]

Yeah but ben simmons is about the best slasher/finisher in the league. He really should be a forward not a guard.

I think that’s a bit much. Harden? Westbrook?

Simmons is super limited

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Only the most cynical thought the Rubio signing was an overpay.

When I saw the terms, I thought it was market value for a mid level starting PG. I was actually pleased that they didnt overpay. Very reasonable contract for both sides.

I said it at the time, and I know it wasnt a popular opinion, but Jones made moves that improved the team depth throughout.

Alot of you were wrong. I hate to do an "I told you so", but my observation of last years Suns teams is that they were short about 4 NBA level players. I know @SirStefan32 agreed with my take.

Jones could see this problem. One "star" or borderline star wouldnt have had the impact that adding 4 or 5 good NBA players would add.

From my perspective I didn’t love the individual moves but I understood the overall plan and thought the sum of the unlovable parts would benefit the team. My concentration was on the addition of passers/shooters (passers: Rubio, Jerome and saric; shooters: saric, cam, Jerome - didn’t realize baynes and kaminsky would be as effective from deep as they’ve been). What I didn’t see coming was the defense. I knew Rubio was a plus defender, baynes was a tough guy, and carter was known for his d. But I didn’t see everyone buying in.

 

[JCSunsfan]

From my perspective I didn’t love the individual moves but I understood the overall plan and thought the sum of the unlovable parts would benefit the team. My concentration was on the addition of passers/shooters (passers: Rubio, Jerome and saric; shooters: saric, cam, Jerome - didn’t realize baynes and kaminsky would be as effective from deep as they’ve been). What I didn’t see coming was the defense. I knew Rubio was a plus defender, baynes was a tough guy, and carter was known for his d. But I didn’t see everyone buying in.

I hoped for it, but I am a Suns fan. We have heard talk about defense every year for decades, but never have actually seen it. We are like Charlie Brown with Lucy holding the football. "We are going to have a good defense this year, Chuck!" James Jones managed to get enough defenders to turn the tide. It took mature players who know how to play it. It also took Booker buying in. That might have been the greatest accomplishment.

 

[Hoop Head]

Yeah but ben simmons is about the best slasher/finisher in the league. He really should be a forward not a guard.

Simmons as a forward would expose his lack of shooting even more. He needs the ball in his hand like he's had and his size advantage at PG is largely why he's been able to be as dominant as he's been. Philly has even surrounded him by big players so the option to swap a larger defender on him will end up biting the team that does it. He's starting with Josh Richardson who was a SF in Miami last year and is 6'6", Tobias Harris who has been a PF most of his career at 6'8", Horford who has been an All-Star C at 6'10", and Embiid at 7". How do you guard that team with 6'10" Ben Simmons at PG? Teams play zone against them but Embiid shoots 3's and helps torch teams who do that. They're built really well and I'm glad we won't have as much of a problem with them in the next game because they're starting a SG in Embiid's place, which is weird but it actually helps solve some of the size problem they've created.

 

[SirStefan32]

Only the most cynical thought the Rubio signing was an overpay.

When I saw the terms, I thought it was market value for a mid level starting PG. I was actually pleased that they didnt overpay. Very reasonable contract for both sides.

I said it at the time, and I know it wasnt a popular opinion, but Jones made moves that improved the team depth throughout.

Alot of you were wrong. I hate to do an "I told you so", but my observation of last years Suns teams is that they were short about 4 NBA level players. I know @SirStefan32 agreed with my take.

Jones could see this problem. One "star" or borderline star wouldnt have had the impact that adding 4 or 5 good NBA players would add.

I didn't fully realize that until they got Oubre and Johnson last year and for a few games they had a few real NBA players.
The thing with the team now is that they have NBA players. NBA players tend to be competent, and even the mediocre ones get going once in a while. If you have enough of them, they will help you stay in the game and a couple of them are going to give you a little extra every game. None of the additions this year are all that impressive, but together they form a competent supporting cast. We can see it with Golden State Warriors this year. Before Curry got hurt, they had three actual All Stars on their roster, but no real NBA players outside of that. They are terrible.

I really give Jones a lot of credit. He kept talking about adding competent veterans and that's exactly what he did. Rubio, Saric, Kaminsky, Baynes, Carter are all real NBA players. The rookies look ready to play too. Along with Booker, Ayton, Oubre, Johnson, and Bridges, they have anywhere between 10 and 12 real NBA players. He replaced Ariza and Anderson with Oubre and Johnson last year, and then replaced Bender, Jackson, Melton, Crawford, an always-injured Warren, and Holmes (along with other G-Leaguers) with Rubio, Saric, Kaminsky, Baynes, and Carter, and added two rookies who are ready to contribute. Now, even if Rubio is off, Johnson or Carter may get it going. One of the two stretch 4s is likely going to get going. If Ayton is out or struggling, you have Baynes who is going to be a competent Center at the very least. That keeps you in the game and gives you a chance to win. Last season you had Booker, Warren, Ayton, and Bridges. I suppose Holmes too. Those guys all had to play well in order for them to have a chance. Once they added Oubre and Johnson, they looked decent until the injuries hit. Now they have an actual NBA team. It makes all the difference in the world.

 

[Krangodnzr]

From my perspective I didn’t love the individual moves but I understood the overall plan and thought the sum of the unlovable parts would benefit the team. My concentration was on the addition of passers/shooters (passers: Rubio, Jerome and saric; shooters: saric, cam, Jerome - didn’t realize baynes and kaminsky would be as effective from deep as they’ve been). What I didn’t see coming was the defense. I knew Rubio was a plus defender, baynes was a tough guy, and carter was known for his d. But I didn’t see everyone buying in.

That's just it. Team building isnt about individual moves. Look at what you see now and that's what I saw. There was a theme to the moves.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That's just it. Team building isnt about individual moves. Look at what you see now and that's what I saw. There was a theme to the moves.

I get that you saw the team building. No way do i believe that you saw this level of defense.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I get that you saw the team building. No way do i believe that you saw this level of defense.

No, the defense is a bit of a surprise, but defense is so much about effort in basketball and that can be coached. I think athletic ability can be overrated in basketball. That's why the Suns went after Josh Jackson, they thought he was really athletic and would be a great defender.

We knew Rubio, Carter, and Baynes could all defend. Adding rotation players that play plus defense is usually going to have a good impact on team defense.

In looking at the overall moves, Jones obviously valued defense and shooting.

 

[BC867]

No, the defense is a bit of a surprise, but defense is so much about effort in basketball and that can be coached. I think athletic ability can be overrated in basketball. That's why the Suns went after Josh Jackson, they thought he was really athletic and would be a great defender.

We knew Rubio, Carter, and Baynes could all defend. Adding rotation players that play plus defense is usually going to have a good impact on team defense.

In looking at the overall moves, Jones obviously valued defense and shooting.

And balance. Each position deep with players at their natural position.

 

[Bufalay]

Because that game was clearly an aberration.

Throwing out data points that don’t conform to you’re biases is definitely good practice recommended by all statisticians. Bravo.

 

[1Sun]

Throwing out data points that don’t conform to you’re biases is definitely good practice recommended by all statisticians. Bravo.

5 for 6 in one game and 4 for 13 (1-3, 1-3 and 2-7) in the other three games, and I'm being accused of "throwing out data points".

Let's do what most qualified statisticians do and throw out his best AND worst performances. That leaves him at 33.3%...not exactly indicative of a "smooth stroke".

What is it with people ignoring cold hard facts these days?...

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

5 for 6 in one game and 4 for 13 (1-3, 1-3 and 2-7) in the other three games, and I'm being accused of "throwing out data points".

Let's do what most qualified statisticians do and throw out his best AND worst performances. That leaves him at 33.3%...not exactly indicative of a "smooth stroke".

What is it with people ignoring cold hard facts these days?...

Dude, it's the first 4 games of his NBA career. It's okay to expect some ups and downs early on.

 

[1Sun]

Dude, it's the first 4 games of his NBA career. It's okay to expect some ups and downs early on.

My point is that it's been mostly downs. He wasn't supposed to be drafted anywhere near that high, and thus far he has done nothing to show otherwise. Meanwhile, Brandon Clarke would look awfully good filling our hole at power forward, as would P.J. Washington.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

My point is that it's been mostly downs. He wasn't supposed to be drafted anywhere near that high, and thus far he has done nothing to show otherwise. Meanwhile, Brandon Clarke would look awfully good filling our hole at power forward, as would P.J. Washington.

And you expected him to show it in his first few games? He is primarily a shooter and his shot has been a bit off early. It's going to take a lot more than 4 games for him to show if he was worth the pick or not.

 

[1Sun]

And you expected him to show it in his first few games? He is primarily a shooter and his shot has been a bit off early. It's going to take a lot more than 4 games for him to show if he was worth the pick or not.

And in the meantime, both Clarke and Washington, both projected to go much nearer #11, have already showed significantly more, and at a position of clear need. Stop making excuses.