Suns @ Hornets game thread 3-10-18

CardsSunsDbacks

Not So Skeptical
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Posts
10,193
Reaction score
6,666
Ok Denver is another team to add to this mix.

There’s no more excuses to be used, Ryan McDonough has been here FIVE years now, he needs to turn this into a playoff team by next season imo.
Denver was bad for 3 years and also had some very good draft luck (Jokic in the 2nd round, Harris with like the 18th pick). Teams can’t rely on getting good players that late in the draft. After this year with another high pick there will be no reason to continue to tank and you will see McD make moves that help us to win sooner.
 

ColdPickleNachos

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Mar 5, 2016
Posts
2,578
Reaction score
1,659
Denver was bad for 3 years and also had some very good draft luck (Jokic in the 2nd round, Harris with like the 18th pick). Teams can’t rely on getting good players that late in the draft. After this year with another high pick there will be no reason to continue to tank and you will see McD make moves that help us to win sooner.

I remember being thrilled in 2014 that Harris fell all the way to the Suns at 18. Seemed like a no-brainer at the time. We took Tyler Ennis instead.
 
OP
OP
Mainstreet

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
119,967
Reaction score
60,521
I remember being thrilled in 2014 that Harris fell all the way to the Suns at 18. Seemed like a no-brainer at the time. We took Tyler Ennis instead.

I keep asking how in the world did the Suns draft Ennis.

My conspiracy theory is the Suns thought the Raptors wanted him and they could work a trade.

Otherwise it made no sense. It was a redo of drafting Kendall Marshall. :bang:
 

CardsSunsDbacks

Not So Skeptical
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Posts
10,193
Reaction score
6,666
I remember being thrilled in 2014 that Harris fell all the way to the Suns at 18. Seemed like a no-brainer at the time. We took Tyler Ennis instead.
That pick wouldn’t really move the needle too much for us right now (may have passed on Booker the next year as well). Jokic was the main pick that has set them up so well for the future. Getting a player that good in the 2nd round is a huge boost for a rebuilding team.
 
OP
OP
Mainstreet

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
119,967
Reaction score
60,521
That pick wouldn’t really move the needle too much for us right now (may have passed on Booker the next year as well). Jokic was the main pick that has set them up so well for the future. Getting a player that good in the 2nd round is a huge boost for a rebuilding team.

The Suns haven't had a solid hit in the 2nd round since Dragic via the Spurs.

Reed showed a glimmer of what he might be able to do. Perhaps Payton... in a round about way.

Then there is the Suns 2nd round pick in the 2018 draft.
 

Hoop Head

ASFN Icon
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Posts
17,905
Reaction score
13,067
Location
Tempe, AZ
I keep asking how in the world did the Suns draft Ennis.

My conspiracy theory is the Suns thought the Raptors wanted him and they could work a trade.

Otherwise it made no sense. It was a redo of drafting Kendall Marshall. :bang:

What makes it worse how quickly they gave up on him by including him in the deal to bring Knight to Phoenix. I'm certain that Ennis' inclusion wouldn't have made that deal fall apart. He hasn't been lighting up the league the last few years but he was pretty decent last year in LA and could have been used this season with the Suns awful PG play through February.
 

Hoop Head

ASFN Icon
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Posts
17,905
Reaction score
13,067
Location
Tempe, AZ
The Suns haven't had a solid hit in the 2nd round since Dragic via the Spurs.

Reed showed a glimmer of what he might be able to do. Perhaps Payton... in a round about way.

Then there is the Suns 2nd round pick in the 2018 draft.

I agree with this but only slightly. Yes, they haven't hit in the form of getting a starter but if Ulis can play like he did last game going forward he should be considered a hit. He started this year injured and rough but he played really good last year and against Charlotte he finally looked like the Ulis from last season and Kentucky. Perhaps he was more hobbled than he let on and kept playing because the lack of PG's on the roster. Now that he's healthy he's bounced back. Of course it's too early to say that for certain but if he can keep it up he'll be a really good backup for years to come. Every team should have 2 solid PG's and Ulis could be the answer to the Suns backup PG situation. While I like Canaan and Harrison, Ulis is better than either of them when he's playing like he was during the 2nd half of the season last year.
 
OP
OP
Mainstreet

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
119,967
Reaction score
60,521
What makes it worse how quickly they gave up on him by including him in the deal to bring Knight to Phoenix. I'm certain that Ennis' inclusion wouldn't have made that deal fall apart. He hasn't been lighting up the league the last few years but he was pretty decent last year in LA and could have been used this season with the Suns awful PG play through February.

Drafting Ennis would not have seemed so bad if the Suns had not drafted Kendall Marshall. This is what frustrates me.

It's like the Suns doubled down on a mistake by drafting nonathletic PGs who can't shoot.

The Suns had their PG woes until Payton arrived so he probably could have helped. It's hard to believe Ennis is still only age 23 so who knows.
 

Hoop Head

ASFN Icon
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Posts
17,905
Reaction score
13,067
Location
Tempe, AZ
Drafting Ennis would not have seemed so bad if the Suns had not drafted Kendall Marshall. This is what frustrates me.

It's like the Suns doubled down on a mistake by drafting nonathletic PGs who can't shoot.

The Suns had their PG woes until Payton arrived so he probably could have helped. It's hard to believe Ennis is still only age 23 so who knows.

Ennis had nothing to do with Marshall though, Marshall was gone before Ennis was drafted and Marshall was taken by the previous Blanks/Babby regime while Ennis was selected by McD.

They're both PG's that are below average athletes but Ennis was closer to an NBA level of athleticism while Marshall was one of the least athletic players in the league. Ennis could also shoot well enough that defenses had to pay attention to him while Marshall could be left wide open outside of the lane because he couldn't shoot. We still had Bledsoe and Dragic and then signed IT so drafting Ennis made little sense. If we didn't sign IT or planned on letting Bledsoe walk in free agency then that pick would have made more sense but they gave up on him after half of the season. He is still in the league though and has looked ok for the Lakers so at least he's shown he can play in the NBA, unlike Marshall who has been out of the NBA completely the last 2 season.
 
OP
OP
Mainstreet

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
119,967
Reaction score
60,521
I agree with this but only slightly. Yes, they haven't hit in the form of getting a starter but if Ulis can play like he did last game going forward he should be considered a hit. He started this year injured and rough but he played really good last year and against Charlotte he finally looked like the Ulis from last season and Kentucky. Perhaps he was more hobbled than he let on and kept playing because the lack of PG's on the roster. Now that he's healthy he's bounced back. Of course it's too early to say that for certain but if he can keep it up he'll be a really good backup for years to come. Every team should have 2 solid PG's and Ulis could be the answer to the Suns backup PG situation. While I like Canaan and Harrison, Ulis is better than either of them when he's playing like he was during the 2nd half of the season last year.

Probably should have mentioned Ulis. I like him and want him to succeed.

I'm talking about the degree of hitting a top player in the 2nd round like Dragic or if the Suns had kept Gortat.

I don't think Ulis gets there and Reed hasn't had a fair opportunity as yet to compete.
 
OP
OP
Mainstreet

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
119,967
Reaction score
60,521
Ennis had nothing to do with Marshall though, Marshall was gone before Ennis was drafted and Marshall was taken by the previous Blanks/Babby regime while Ennis was selected by McD.

They're both PG's that are below average athletes but Ennis was closer to an NBA level of athleticism while Marshall was one of the least athletic players in the league. Ennis could also shoot well enough that defenses had to pay attention to him while Marshall could be left wide open outside of the lane because he couldn't shoot. We still had Bledsoe and Dragic and then signed IT so drafting Ennis made little sense. If we didn't sign IT or planned on letting Bledsoe walk in free agency then that pick would have made more sense but they gave up on him after half of the season. He is still in the league though and has looked ok for the Lakers so at least he's shown he can play in the NBA, unlike Marshall who has been out of the NBA completely the last 2 season.

Of course Marshall and Ennis were not related... different drafts, different GMs.

However, I think they are related as to being the same type of player. Both were considered pass first PGs, did not have a reputation for shooting and were nonathletic. Maybe A fine line can be drawn between the two but they did have similar skill sets coming into the NBA.

Also Marshall and Ennis were drafted within two years of each other by the Suns... 2012 and 2014 respectively. I would think draft history should count for something.
 

sunsfan88

ASFN Icon
BANNED BY MODERATORS
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Posts
11,660
Reaction score
844
Denver was bad for 3 years and also had some very good draft luck (Jokic in the 2nd round, Harris with like the 18th pick). Teams can’t rely on getting good players that late in the draft. After this year with another high pick there will be no reason to continue to tank and you will see McD make moves that help us to win sooner.
You create your own luck. Devin Booker was drafted with the 13th pick of the draft. That’s also “luck” which was created.

This team needs a winning record next season otherwise its time to go in a different direction away from McDonough.
 

CardsSunsDbacks

Not So Skeptical
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Posts
10,193
Reaction score
6,666
You create your own luck. Devin Booker was drafted with the 13th pick of the draft. That’s also “luck” which was created.

This team needs a winning record next season otherwise its time to go in a different direction away from McDonough.
The draft is a crap shoot. You do the best you can to scout everyone and hope that who you pick turns out. Do you honestly believe that Denver thought they had one of the best big men in basketball when they were drafting Jokic? They may very well have thought he had a chance, but I highly doubt their expectations were this high.
 

sunsfan88

ASFN Icon
BANNED BY MODERATORS
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Posts
11,660
Reaction score
844
The draft is a crap shoot. You do the best you can to scout everyone and hope that who you pick turns out. Do you honestly believe that Denver thought they had one of the best big men in basketball when they were drafting Jokic? They may very well have thought he had a chance, but I highly doubt their expectations were this high.
Okay it’s McDonough’s job to get more right than he does wrong. If drafting badly doesn’t matter why did David Kahn and many GMs like him get fired?

Bottom doesn’t line is if McDonough continues to draft guys like Len and Chriss then he likely will be looking for a new job soon. As it is, he’s one of the worst 5 GMs in the NBA today.

If the Suns don’t become a winning team by next season, Sarver will likely can his ass based on Sarver’s comments from a recent AZ Republic article.
 

Hoop Head

ASFN Icon
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Posts
17,905
Reaction score
13,067
Location
Tempe, AZ
Okay it’s McDonough’s job to get more right than he does wrong. If drafting badly doesn’t matter why did David Kahn and many GMs like him get fired?

Bottom doesn’t line is if McDonough continues to draft guys like Len and Chriss then he likely will be looking for a new job soon. As it is, he’s one of the worst 5 GMs in the NBA today.

If the Suns don’t become a winning team by next season, Sarver will likely can his ass based on Sarver’s comments from a recent AZ Republic article.

Where do you get the idea he's a bottom 5 GM? Have you looked to see how long certain GM's have been in place across the league? Because I wouldn't say the Suns have been run the 5th worst within the 4-5 years he's been here. I'd say the Knicks, Nets, Magic, Blazers, Kings, Lakers, Memphis, Atlanta, and Chicago have been managed worse than the Suns over the last few years and that's just off of the top of my head. I didn't look to see how long GM's have been in place for those teams but going off of their salary flexibility, recent trades, and where the direction they're headed. I'd put McD's management of the Suns ahead of those teams GM's. He hasn't tried cashing in his assets yet and he says he will do that this summer. We'll see what happens but I think he deserves the opportunity to see that through. He's drafted well for the most part since he's been here. Some players don't pan out, that happens everywhere though. He's managed to add in 2 very good pieces in Booker and Warren, with Booker being a legit star taken at #13.

Atlanta was the #1 seed in the East not long ago and they've lost all of their All-Stars for nothing. Brooklyn hasn't had their own 1st round pick since they've been awful, Portland is at the Luxury Tax line for a rather mediocre 8th seed and they lost Aldridge for nothing, the Knicks have been a mess for a while, the Bulls had a good team not long ago but they got rid of Thibs for Hoiberg and they've gotten worse each year since and have lost a number of talented players for essentially nothing of value in return. Memphis has no good young talent and are the worst team in the league right now.
 

Superbone

Phoenix native; Lifelong Suns Fan
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Posts
6,461
Reaction score
3,672
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Ok Denver is another team to add to this mix.

There’s no more excuses to be used, Ryan McDonough has been here FIVE years now, he needs to turn this into a playoff team by next season imo.
The chances are pretty minimal that we turn it around from one of, if not the worst record this season to into the playoffs next season. We should at least be competitive though and be in the mix. Now the year after that I fully expect us to be in the playoffs.
 
OP
OP
Mainstreet

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
119,967
Reaction score
60,521
The chances are pretty minimal that we turn it around from one of, if not the worst record this season to into the playoffs next season. We should at least be competitive though and be in the mix. Now the year after that I fully expect us to be in the playoffs.

I will be happy if the Suns are in full win mode next season and making moves to improve the team in present time.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
64,465
Reaction score
59,734
Location
SoCal
If, by the grace of the ownership thy be, we land Ayton in the off-season I expect a 20 game leap forward. The developments of young players coupled with a generational talent should result in such a jump. I believe we’ve seen similar from teams that have gotten such a difference maker in the past. A 40-43 win season wouldn’t completely surprise me. I admit I may be underestimating the time it may take our youth to fully develop, so maybe a 36-40 win season is more realistic. Then a leap to 45-50 wins the following season or two, then competing for championships thereafter.

If we end up with anyone other than ayton I would temper my projections pretty radically. Maybe 30-33 wins next season with a leap to .500 the following season with multiple 50-something win seasons thereafter.
 

sunsfan88

ASFN Icon
BANNED BY MODERATORS
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Posts
11,660
Reaction score
844
Where do you get the idea he's a bottom 5 GM? Have you looked to see how long certain GM's have been in place across the league? Because I wouldn't say the Suns have been run the 5th worst within the 4-5 years he's been here. I'd say the Knicks, Nets, Magic, Blazers, Kings, Lakers, Memphis, Atlanta, and Chicago have been managed worse than the Suns over the last few years and that's just off of the top of my head. I didn't look to see how long GM's have been in place for those teams but going off of their salary flexibility, recent trades, and where the direction they're headed. I'd put McD's management of the Suns ahead of those teams GM's. He hasn't tried cashing in his assets yet and he says he will do that this summer. We'll see what happens but I think he deserves the opportunity to see that through. He's drafted well for the most part since he's been here. Some players don't pan out, that happens everywhere though. He's managed to add in 2 very good pieces in Booker and Warren, with Booker being a legit star taken at #13.

Atlanta was the #1 seed in the East not long ago and they've lost all of their All-Stars for nothing. Brooklyn hasn't had their own 1st round pick since they've been awful, Portland is at the Luxury Tax line for a rather mediocre 8th seed and they lost Aldridge for nothing, the Knicks have been a mess for a while, the Bulls had a good team not long ago but they got rid of Thibs for Hoiberg and they've gotten worse each year since and have lost a number of talented players for essentially nothing of value in return. Memphis has no good young talent and are the worst team in the league right now.
Suns have been an absolute joke of a team during McD’s tenure. The Suns get ripped to shreds anytime their mentioned on national television. Well respected media members like Rachel Nichols, Amin Elhassan and even guys like Zach Lowe have criticized the Suns frequently and often.

McDonough averages one disgruntled player PER season. No GM in recent history can match that statistic. He has the worst public reputation out of any current GM beside maybe Vlade.

Nichols and Elhassan have said reportedly on the show “The Jump” about how Booker should leave the Suns via demanding trade or taking the QO as a FA because of how badly run the Suns are.

Saying the Suns are a bottom 5 run franchise was being very, very optimistic. It’s actually closer to bottom 3.
 

sunsfan88

ASFN Icon
BANNED BY MODERATORS
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Posts
11,660
Reaction score
844
The chances are pretty minimal that we turn it around from one of, if not the worst record this season to into the playoffs next season. We should at least be competitive though and be in the mix. Now the year after that I fully expect us to be in the playoffs.
Yeah playoffs could be a stretch but I expect us to at least competitive and finish the season with a winning record. Similar to the season teams like Utah/Denver etc have had this season.
 

JCSunsfan

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 24, 2002
Posts
22,115
Reaction score
6,551
True but we should have rooted for losses sooner this season. A couple extra L's could have made a big difference at this point.

Thanks Chandler for that last second dunk in that one game...pffft.
not that big. One spot.
 

JCSunsfan

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 24, 2002
Posts
22,115
Reaction score
6,551
One spot makes a difference.
Guess it depends on your definition. It makes a 9% difference in drafting top 3 or not. The number 4 position is still the single most likely position for the top two lottery seeds--35% chance for the 1 seed, 31% for the number 2 seed.
 
Top