Suns @ Knicks game thread - Sun. Dec. 2, 2007 - 5 PM - My45 HD

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

http://www.raptorsnation.net/game8.php?id=245&team=20071202

this one should

 

[cly2tw]

http://www.raptorsnation.net/game8.php?id=245&team=20071202

this one should

This one did. Thanks a lot for sharing!

 

[Rab]

I remember last year when Amare was coming back and they were in Italy during the preseason, I read that there was some friction between Amare and Bell. Not on the court, but off.

I wish I still had the article, but I think it was that blog Raja Bell did for ESPN.

As long as they keep any personal issues off the court, that's fine. I've seen more positive interaction with Amare and his teammates this year than I ever have. Especially with Shawn.

Bell needs to cool it. It's not like he has exactly been great this year so far, and has had games where he has hurt the team. Love Raja, love Amare, so patch this up and move on. Don't know what Banks' deal was though.

 

[cly2tw]

Now having a chance to view the game, thanks to YJGSSD, the mentioned incidence came in about 4:30 left in the 3rd. Well, it was an Amare turnover but he was not even entirely to blame for not passing the ball. The only short opening was Bell who was however too close to Amare with a guy chasing him. A pass there would be too dangerous. With no apparent target to pass to, Amare then started to drive but Q who was the guy chasing Bell stripped the ball from behind.

That's not really a big mistake. But Bell said something to Amare and they changed some words.

All game long, Amare was amazing on offensive spacing. Take a close look just how much space he opened for his teammates with his positioning and moving. And I'd be pissed off too that someone would bicker about something what was not entirely my fault. And on defense, Amare was active and behaved properly most of the time. His help defense around the basket was particularly timely. His main problem is the same that his reaction to off ball movements of the opponents is slow and he rotates too far out on p-n-r defense.

I'm just amazed how people could bash Amare with such an excellent performance on both sides of the court!

OTHO, both Raja and Amare were professional enough that they made the proper passes to each other when required by the situation, which most of the time led to very good results. The last couple of games when Bell started to pass to the open Amare and was no longer stopping our offense he used to earlier in the season. So, the on-court words changes were not that big a deal than I thought.

 

[nowagimp]

Skinner gives Suns big edge

Paul Coro
The Arizona Republic
Dec. 2, 2007 10:49 PM

NEW YORK - The Suns beat the Knicks 115-104 Sunday night.

...

Bicker, bicker

Stoudemire twice had words with teammates during Sunday's third quarter. First, he argued on the court with Raja Bell about a play on which Stoudemire held the ball too long and had it stolen by Knicks forward Quentin Richardson.

Three minutes later, Stoudemire came out after a loose ball foul and snapped at Suns guard Marcus Banks on the bench to the point that guard Steve Nash left his resting spot on the baseline floor to sit between Banks and Stoudemire, his newly appointed co-captain.

"We've got to get through that," Nash said. "All teams have it. The best teams do it the least and get it over it the quickest. It's an emotional sport."

Stoudemire declined to comment on the quarrels.

---------

Did anyone see that? So, here we go with further evidence that Raja hates Amare which explains why he never passes the ball to Amare. When he was bumpling around the league, he was not allowed to make mistakes. So, here he's now established, he'd have to give the young, still developing superstar some harsh words as if the coaches wouldn't do it in film session privately.

Geez. If we don't have Amare touch the ball more often in the regular season to get him used to different situations, how could he learn to always make the right decision there when in playoffs he often became the only viable option? TD had 4 years of college with almost every possession going through him. Yao has been ridiculed by many haters for his turnovers and whatever. But only practice makes you perfect, isn't it so? Or, is it the philosophy, "we will only use your natural talent as it comes, but we don't care to develop your other bball skills to make you a complete player"?

I think Kerr got to talk to DA and Bell about this issue. That'd be a farce that if a superstar and a role player can't co-exist on the court, the superstar is to be shipped away. Well, it looks the Suns just might do it.

Naaah just a bunch of crap! Bell had a nice assist to amare running down the lane. Amare must learn to pass out of the double team, for crapsakes hes 1st team all NBA in his 5th year, and still cant do it consistently. Amare has to know its coming, and punish it instead of butting heads with his opponent, mano on mano(but not since the double is coming). It'll come with time, but the suns will not win the championship without amare learning it, so now is the time. Bell was right, and hes not just a role player, he's a very important part of the team. When Bell is healthy, the suns can really stretch the floor as he is clutch from 3, even with a defender on him(unlike leo). He's under more pressure to make the 3's now that Nash is hitting diddly with his elbow/shoulder injury, and Barbs outside shot is missing in action lately. Bell is critical to the system and plays a huge defensive role against the better 2 guards in the league. Without Bell, Manu will score 40 pts against the suns(remember?).

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I again noticed nice chemistry between Amare and Marion last night. I think that situation is just working itself out.

 

[nowagimp]

I again noticed nice chemistry between Amare and Marion last night. I think that situation is just working itself out.

Is it possible that this chemistry develops faster when nash is sitting and they must pass to each other more often. It shouldnt be necessary, but with these hard headed egos it might.

 

[Errntknght]

cly2tw,

Now having a chance to view the game, thanks to YJGSSD, the mentioned incidence came in about 4:30 left in the 3rd. Well, it was an Amare turnover but he was not even entirely to blame for not passing the ball. The only short opening was Bell who was however too close to Amare with a guy chasing him. A pass there would be too dangerous. With no apparent target to pass to, Amare then started to drive but Q who was the guy chasing Bell stripped the ball from behind.

That's not really a big mistake. But Bell said something to Amare and they changed some words.

I replayed it several times and it looked to me that Amare had plenty of opportunity to pass to Raja. In fact a pass out, repost, and pass back looked like the right play to me - and I presume that is what Raja was suggesting to Amare. If he just wanted to launch a 3, then he's got no business opening his yap. I doubt if thats the case because Bell is just not that greedy.

 

[dodie53]

http://www.raptorsnation.net/game8.php?id=245&team=20071202

this one should

i'm watching the game right now.
many thanks.

 

[cly2tw]

cly2tw,

I replayed it several times and it looked to me that Amare had plenty of opportunity to pass to Raja. In fact a pass out, repost, and pass back looked like the right play to me - and I presume that is what Raja was suggesting to Amare. If he just wanted to launch a 3, then he's got no business opening his yap. I doubt if thats the case because Bell is just not that greedy.

Well, we differ in our judgment here. IMO, Raja was too close to Amare with Q chasing him. Amare was ready to pass the ball, actually for too long and somehow didn't deem the pass to Raja proper. Then, he tried, for the only time in the undecided game, to drive 1-on-1, at which time there was a help defense in front of him and Q stripped him from behind.

At best, I'd say it's a judgment call. Maybe it wouldn't have ended up as a turnover had Amare turned to the basket and tried 1-on-1 right away without scouting other passing options. But to say that he was completely wrong with his judgment is not really fair. In particular, his other offensive decisions were all almost perfect in this game. His only other TO came in the last seconds of the game, already decided, when he dribbled the ball out of bound on the other 1-on- 1 drive.

All I want to say is, it's crazy, and completel wrong at that, to conclude out of this incidence that Amare was stopping the ball movement and made it a 1-on-1 game out of the Suns offense. Not to mention that we need to mix in some of his and Hill's 1-on-1 games to keep defense guessing!

PS: If we don't put Amare in those situations more often and let him make and learn from mistakes, how could he learn at all? If such situations come only once in several games, he will never learn, will he? That's a dilemma just like whether to play Raja injured. It's risky but sometimes you have to do it.

 

[cly2tw]

I'm just watching the Magic at Suns game.

Amare's help defense is great, which forced a lot of bad misses and turnovers. His man defense is not that bad either. Howard was not scoring over him like in the earlier game when Amare was not fit.

And on the low block, Howard can't defend Amare either! And Amare has been making the RIGHT decision on offense 99.9% of the time.

It just makes you wonder why the fans are complaining about him?!

PS: now I'm done with reviewing the game, all I can say is that Amare has been the best and most consistent player in the last two games. His block on Howard brought even a smile from Howard himself and he hussled to get us two critical offensive rebounds in the last 1 1/2min. of the Magic game. His main problem is conditioning. When his energy level is down, he gets visibly slower on defensive rotation, with a too big turning radius. But he could still gather his explosiveness for that huge block on Arroyo that led to LB's 3pt, and plus those offensive rebounds. I'm so impressed and pround of him!

 

[Errntknght]

cly2tw,

IMO, Raja was too close to Amare with Q chasing him.

I understood that the first time. And I agree with you that when Raja first passed by Amare he was too close. But then he moved out behind the arc while Q continued to pester Amare - and thats when I thought the latter had an easy pass out. (I think if you look at it again with that in mind you'll see what I'm talking about.)

In any case I don't think it was a mistake of major proportions but the pass out and repost is an excellent maneuver and if thats what Raja was jawing to Amare about then I think he had a good point. If Amare took it the right spirit then it would have been one of the learning experiences you mention - and somehow seem to feel that I oppose or don't grasp.

 

[mribnik]

I really don't think there's anything to this at all, the team gets along great, but it would not surprise me if Raja Bell didn't really care for Amare. Raja went undrafted and worked his ass off to get to the NBA while Amare was blessed with unbelievable talent and was drafted in the first round with limited skills. He has a max contract and a large ego.

Again, I don't even think it's a big deal or anything to worry about at all, but for the sake of over analyzing, it wouldn't surprise me if that was the case.

On another note, I've been impressed with Amare's leadership qualities in a way. He seems to be more team oriented than he used to be. He always seems to be the first off the bench to cheer on his teammates and he seems to care less about his stats and more about winning. JMO.

 

[cly2tw]

cly2tw,

I understood that the first time. And I agree with you that when Raja first passed by Amare he was too close. But then he moved out behind the arc while Q continued to pester Amare - and thats when I thought the latter had an easy pass out. (I think if you look at it again with that in mind you'll see what I'm talking about.)

In any case I don't think it was a mistake of major proportions but the pass out and repost is an excellent maneuver and if thats what Raja was jawing to Amare about then I think he had a good point. If Amare took it the right spirit then it would have been one of the learning experiences you mention - and somehow seem to feel that I oppose or don't grasp.

I agree with you that Raja might have a point suggesting a pass back to him. But we also all agree that Amare's on-court decision had some logic behind it too. Even with Raja out on the 3pt line, Q was still too close between him and Amare that a pass to Raja wouldn't immediately result in an open 3pt shot. There is also always the shot clock issue there. So, instead of initiating a regrouping of offense maybe with a pass back from Raja, Amare decided for attacking on his own. We can't simply judge from the outcome that that decision was wrong or what.

Actually, farther away from the basket Amare was, an additional pass with Raja was not expected to gain much in my opinion anyway. Considering Amare has been perfect in the last games, it was comprehensible that he might have pissed off by immediate words from Raja on that. It's all human.

 

[cly2tw]

I really don't think there's anything to this at all, the team gets along great, but it would not surprise me if Raja Bell didn't really care for Amare. Raja went undrafted and worked his ass off to get to the NBA while Amare was blessed with unbelievable talent and was drafted in the first round with limited skills. He has a max contract and a large ego.

That's my impression too. That'd explain why Raja rarely passed the ball to an open Amare up until the last 4 games. Ignoring this most vital option, we all felt that the offense stagnated with Bell touching the ball early in the season, him being injured or not. I believe the coaching staff got on him about that and, by suppressing his own ego, Raja started to pass to Amare and untracked his own offense along the way.

Personally, Raja associates himself with Bowen and Nash who were underdogs entering the league and had to earn their dues. It's understandable that he doesn't care for the 'born' stars like Kobe or Amare. But he was letting his bias affect the Suns game up until recent games.

And I also agree that Amare has been very professional himself, greeting teammates from the bench, or patting after each play on the court.