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BC867

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Look me up in another five or six years when the Suns have peaked with a few 50-and-fade runs and this board is wailing, again, about how the franchise can't win a title. It's blindingly obvious to me that this is where we are headed.
Eric and I don't often agree. But we do on this.

If you've given your heart to the Suns for as many decades as he and I have, the reality sets in that, at best, 50-and-fade is as good as it gets for us. Yes, we have had a few Cinderella moments in 46 seasons. Who hasn't?

But it is in the Suns DNA -- Don't Know Anything but put on a glitzy show on offense for 2/3 of a season, then fade when the reality of what it takes to be strong down the stretch and through the post-season faces us.

Emphasis on the word "strong". The Suns have never been considered a "strong" NBA team. Lucky a few times, but not strong. Even as fans, we've never ranked them up there with the big boys.

If the Sonics could abandon Seattle and move to Oklahoma City (of all places) and become a powerhouse, shame on the Suns who, at best, might reach 50-and-fade again while in, what has been for the past 30 years, the fastest growing metropolitan area in the country. And in Phoenix, the largest state capital in the country.
 

sunsfan88

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I've seen him get mad plenty of times. Most would prefer that he flail his arms around and scream at everyone. He's a lot more subtle, which is a good change after Mike "PANIC!!!" D'antoni.

Me too, his expressions and body language speak clearly. I've also heard post game comments from several of the players that Jeff not only gets upset with them but that he makes his displeasure quite apparent to them. I don't know why a fan would demand histrionics from their head coach, it makes little sense. Some people are screamers, some aren't.

Jeff has said himself that he doesn't yell much.

I just want to see some emotion like a Popovich, I don't expect or want this

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BC867

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A coach has to be true to himself or he will be labeled as a phony.

Jeff could either put on a childish show for the public . . . or be demanding in private with his players. I am glad he hasn't chosen the former.

In the long run, it pays off. I'll rephrase that. When he has a balanced roster, it will pay off.
 

Catlover

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A coach has to be true to himself or he will be labeled as a phony.

Jeff could either put on a childish show for the public . . . or be demanding in private with his players. I am glad he hasn't chosen the former.

In the long run, it pays off. I'll rephrase that. When he has a balanced roster, it will pay off.

We're in fight for the 7th playoff spot with 8 games to go with a roster that was picked to finish dead last by many experts and fans. I think it has already paid off. Obviously, I agree with the rest of what you said.
 
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Eric and I don't often agree. But we do on this.

If you've given your heart to the Suns for as many decades as he and I have, the reality sets in that, at best, 50-and-fade is as good as it gets for us. Yes, we have had a few Cinderella moments in 46 seasons. Who hasn't?

But it is in the Suns DNA -- Don't Know Anything but put on a glitzy show on offense for 2/3 of a season, then fade when the reality of what it takes to be strong down the stretch and through the post-season faces us.

Emphasis on the word "strong". The Suns have never been considered a "strong" NBA team. Lucky a few times, but not strong. Even as fans, we've never ranked them up there with the big boys.

If the Sonics could abandon Seattle and move to Oklahoma City (of all places) and become a powerhouse, shame on the Suns who, at best, might reach 50-and-fade again while in, what has been for the past 30 years, the fastest growing metropolitan area in the country. And in Phoenix, the largest state capital in the country.

I just disagree on so many levels. I want a championship as much as anyone but I do not believe one can blame the Suns for not having a championship because of lack of effort. Maybe if the Suns had players like Kareem, Robinson and Duncan, you would be singing a different tune. Then the Suns would be "strong" in your eyes. If the Suns were tanking for top picks would that make you happier?
 

Catlover

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Eric and I don't often agree. But we do on this.

If you've given your heart to the Suns for as many decades as he and I have, the reality sets in that, at best, 50-and-fade is as good as it gets for us. Yes, we have had a few Cinderella moments in 46 seasons. Who hasn't?

But it is in the Suns DNA -- Don't Know Anything but put on a glitzy show on offense for 2/3 of a season, then fade when the reality of what it takes to be strong down the stretch and through the post-season faces us.

Emphasis on the word "strong". The Suns have never been considered a "strong" NBA team. Lucky a few times, but not strong. Even as fans, we've never ranked them up there with the big boys.

If the Sonics could abandon Seattle and move to Oklahoma City (of all places) and become a powerhouse, shame on the Suns who, at best, might reach 50-and-fade again while in, what has been for the past 30 years, the fastest growing metropolitan area in the country. And in Phoenix, the largest state capital in the country.

What is all this 50 and fade BS? It's taken on a life of it's own as if winning games was synonymous with failure. I've only been a fan of the Suns since the late 70's but I've been a fan of the NBA longer than that and certainly for long enough to know you don't really build a championship team - at least not since the pre-expansion Red Auerbach years. You build a team that has a chance to win it all and then you hope the breaks come your way.

The ball hits the rim, bounces around several times and then just barely falls through the hoop and a gritty Miami/New York series is over and the favorite goes home and the other team moves on. A ref in Sacramento decides the NBA would rather watch the Lakers play so he makes some questionable calls and the Kings go fishing instead of advancing. A game-changer point guard goes down with an injury and a season of work is all for naught. Two key players leave the bench in a "brawl" and have to sit out the game that could have propelled them to a championship.

There's too much luck in this to whine about teams that win 50 games and don't advance. Teams don't advance because they are "strong". There are plenty of tough teams that have had their hearts broken too. The Pacers have talent, they are big and they are strong and they will probably have their hearts broken again this year.

One team has the greatest player in the game, sometimes two or three teams have a player good enough to be considered the "best". Every other championship hopeful is playing against a stacked deck. That doesn't mean you don't keep trying to put a contender together even if the likely outcome is 50 wins and a loss in the playoffs. For us, just being in a playoff race late in the season is a huge victory.
 

Catlover

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I just disagree on so many levels. I want a championship as much as anyone but I do not believe one can blame the Suns for not having a championship because of lack of effort. Maybe if the Suns had players like Kareem, Robinson and Duncan, you would be singing a different tune. Then the Suns would be "strong" in your eyes. If the Suns were tanking for top picks would that make you happier?

Agreed.
 

elindholm

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The ball hits the rim, bounces around several times and then just barely falls through the hoop and a gritty Miami/New York series is over and the favorite goes home and the other team moves on. A ref in Sacramento decides the NBA would rather watch the Lakers play so he makes some questionable calls and the Kings go fishing instead of advancing. A game-changer point guard goes down with an injury and a season of work is all for naught. Two key players leave the bench in a "brawl" and have to sit out the game that could have propelled them to a championship.

Although I agree with this, I think there's a huge gap between a 50-and-fade team and a team that is just a lucky bounce or two away from a title.

However, I'm with you that a 50-and-fade team shouldn't be a failure. The context is that, although you and I have both been Suns fans for a long time, I've been on this board a long time, and you haven't. And I can tell you that the whining on this board about not winning a title, year after year, decade after decade, can get very tiring.

It's the illogic of it all that drives me crazy. Last summer, most of this board was, in a perverse way, happy that the Suns were bottoming out. Getting top talent through the draft -- even if you then cash that talent in for veterans via trade, or use its presence to lure free agents -- is really the only way to build a contender, we agreed. Heaven forbid the Suns put together another mediocre season, we warned. Much better to be patient, to establish a culture of defense and responsibility, to not be seduced yet again by fast breaks and three-pointers, which aren't reliable come playoff time.

Not quite everyone on this board said this, but the consensus was very strong.

And now, we have exactly the kind of team that, less than a year ago, most people said they didn't want. And yet that is forgotten; almost all of those people are now happy. "The rebuild is over!", some boast. "We're just a player or two away!"

I don't really care about titles. I joined the ride just after the Cinderella team of 1976, so I've been through most of it. I'm okay with 50-and-fade seasons, really.

But to read another cycle of this board convincing themselves that the Suns are on a contending track, then throwing a collective tantrum when it becomes clear that they were fooling themselves -- I don't think I can take it.

I've been through that so many times, and if you look objectively at the current Suns versus some of their other "good and growing" years, this one really doesn't look that hot. I could believe that the Johnson/Chambers/Hornacek teams were close and just needed the right trade, or that the Nash/Stoudemire/Marion teams were close and just needed the right combination of health, role players, and the occasional timely defensive rebound. But I can't believe that this team is close, or even close to being close. It isn't that I've grown pessimistic, or that I don't want to be burned again, or any of that other emotional nonsense -- it's that this team really doesn't look that good to me.

That doesn't mean you don't keep trying to put a contender together even if the likely outcome is 50 wins and a loss in the playoffs.

A team whose likely outcome is 50 wins isn't a contender.

There is a huge gap between a team that wins 50 games and one that wins 57+. The closer you get to the top of the ladder, the harder it is to climb each rung. A team that wins 46 games one year might be close to winning 52 the next, but to get from 52 to 58 is a totally different story -- it means that you're winning most of your other games against the league's other 50-win teams, instead of splitting them.

I'd love for someone to say, "You know what, I wanted the team to bottom out and build a contender methodically around premium talent ... but I've changed my mind. It's more fun to be in the playoff hunt, and I don't want to keep holding my breath for everything to fall into place for a title." I'd say, "Great! I really admire that attitude." But instead we have people who are dead committed to a particular plan of action, until the wind changes direction, after which they say, oh right, this is what we wanted to do all along -- and don't even realize that they're contradicting themselves. I can't deal with it anymore.
 

Catlover

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Although I agree with this, I think there's a huge gap between a 50-and-fade team and a team that is just a lucky bounce or two away from a title.

However, I'm with you that a 50-and-fade team shouldn't be a failure. The context is that, although you and I have both been Suns fans for a long time, I've been on this board a long time, and you haven't. And I can tell you that the whining on this board about not winning a title, year after year, decade after decade, can get very tiring.

It's the illogic of it all that drives me crazy. Last summer, most of this board was, in a perverse way, happy that the Suns were bottoming out. Getting top talent through the draft -- even if you then cash that talent in for veterans via trade, or use its presence to lure free agents -- is really the only way to build a contender, we agreed. Heaven forbid the Suns put together another mediocre season, we warned. Much better to be patient, to establish a culture of defense and responsibility, to not be seduced yet again by fast breaks and three-pointers, which aren't reliable come playoff time.

Not quite everyone on this board said this, but the consensus was very strong.

And now, we have exactly the kind of team that, less than a year ago, most people said they didn't want. And yet that is forgotten; almost all of those people are now happy. "The rebuild is over!", some boast. "We're just a player or two away!"

I don't really care about titles. I joined the ride just after the Cinderella team of 1976, so I've been through most of it. I'm okay with 50-and-fade seasons, really.

But to read another cycle of this board convincing themselves that the Suns are on a contending track, then throwing a collective tantrum when it becomes clear that they were fooling themselves -- I don't think I can take it.

I've been through that so many times, and if you look objectively at the current Suns versus some of their other "good and growing" years, this one really doesn't look that hot. I could believe that the Johnson/Chambers/Hornacek teams were close and just needed the right trade, or that the Nash/Stoudemire/Marion teams were close and just needed the right combination of health, role players, and the occasional timely defensive rebound. But I can't believe that this team is close, or even close to being close. It isn't that I've grown pessimistic, or that I don't want to be burned again, or any of that other emotional nonsense -- it's that this team really doesn't look that good to me.



A team whose likely outcome is 50 wins isn't a contender.

There is a huge gap between a team that wins 50 games and one that wins 57+. The closer you get to the top of the ladder, the harder it is to climb each rung. A team that wins 46 games one year might be close to winning 52 the next, but to get from 52 to 58 is a totally different story -- it means that you're winning most of your other games against the league's other 50-win teams, instead of splitting them.

I'd love for someone to say, "You know what, I wanted the team to bottom out and build a contender methodically around premium talent ... but I've changed my mind. It's more fun to be in the playoff hunt, and I don't want to keep holding my breath for everything to fall into place for a title." I'd say, "Great! I really admire that attitude." But instead we have people who are dead committed to a particular plan of action, until the wind changes direction, after which they say, oh right, this is what we wanted to do all along -- and don't even realize that they're contradicting themselves. I can't deal with it anymore.

I understand what you're saying and I pretty much agree with all of this. Although I've popped in once or twice a month for more than a decade now, I haven't lived with the rantings and ravings of this board on a daily basis as many of you have.

I think we are in great position but that's mostly because a year ago I thought we were, best case scenario, 3 to 5 years away from reaching where we are right now. I don't think we're a contender yet nor do I think we are one player away from it unless that player is a legitimate superstar.

We have several pieces that could reasonably be expected to improve and with average drafts and free agents we could be in the Indiana or Golden State ballpark in a year or two. Most people would consider them contenders even though very few of us truly believe they could actually win it all. But I'd be happy building towards that type of team, whether we win it all or not is mostly irrelevant AFAIC.
 

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I understand what you're saying and I pretty much agree with all of this. Although I've popped in once or twice a month for more than a decade now, I haven't lived with the rantings and ravings of this board on a daily basis as many of you have.

I think we are in great position but that's mostly because a year ago I thought we were, best case scenario, 3 to 5 years away from reaching where we are right now. I don't think we're a contender yet nor do I think we are one player away from it unless that player is a legitimate superstar.

We have several pieces that could reasonably be expected to improve and with average drafts and free agents we could be in the Indiana or Golden State ballpark in a year or two. Most people would consider them contenders even though very few of us truly believe they could actually win it all. But I'd be happy building towards that type of team, whether we win it all or not is mostly irrelevant AFAIC.

I think we're much closer to GS then Indiana...problem is, I don't think anyone seriously considers GS a contender.

that being said, two years ago, Indiana looked a lot like us. They didn't go out and get some stud player to vaulted them over the top. They let their talent develop, just like we have to do the same thing. You hope Len becomes our Hibbert, one of those picks this year becomes our Paul George...or Bledsoe takes another step and two years from now, who knows.
 

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