Suns @ Lakers Sunday game thread 5-9-2021

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It had nothing to do with right or left. If we’re in a bar and you call me a bitch I’m going to crack you in the mouth

calling someone a bitch 100% implies there acting less than a man. You know that.

but hey if your ok with someone calling YOU that then that’s you. Like I said just different that’s all

Again I don’t think it’s questioning manhood, I think it’s saying you’re allowing someone else to dominate you. Are you saying only men don’t want to be dominated? Because calling a woman a bitch certainly isn’t questioning her manhood, is it?

and no I’d not be good with someone calling me that, but not bc I would think it was them calling me a woman (which you seem to be stating - that a bitch is a woman and somehow less than a man), but rather them saying I’m subservient in some manner.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I don’t think it carries a gender-specific connotation in this usage. No one is mistaking cheese’s comments with claiming the suns are women. In fact, no women are involved in this conversation at all. Imo this is how the right weakens the lefts legitimate claims about race or misogyny - by claiming it when it’s not applicable.

think about the two usages of the word “bitch”:

1. an unreasonably mean or nasty woman

2. a female dog

which one would fit the context here? I think inarguably the latter. It’s almost akin to saying they’re acting like dogs. So no context to women.

I was using the word in lieu of calling them whining complainers, but I see where Eric’s POV is valid. Didn’t even consciously cross my mind that way, but that’s part of where inherent bias may be playing a role in how I’m thinking, still. Better to eliminate the use of the word in both contexts. I ain’t perfect and can and want to always evolve when someone shines a light on something that needs changing.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It had nothing to do with right or left. If we’re in a bar and you call me a bitch I’m going to crack you in the mouth

calling someone a bitch 100% implies there acting less than a man. You know that.

but hey if your ok with someone calling YOU that then that’s you. Like I said just different that’s all

I mean, I’ll allow you to clarify, what do you mean “questioning your manhood?” You state it means less than a man, right? So is that a woman or a dog? Which is less than a man? And if it’s the latter it’s not misogyny is it? If it’s the former, well, who’s the misogynist?

would you be freaking out about this if cheese had said “they’re acting like dogs?”

 

[Finito]

Again I don’t think it’s questioning manhood, I think it’s saying you’re allowing someone else to dominate you. Are you saying only men don’t want to be dominated? Because calling a woman a bitch certainly isn’t questioning her manhood, is it?

and no I’d not be good with someone calling me that, but not bc I would think it was them calling me a woman (which you seem to be stating - that a bitch is a woman and somehow less than a man), but rather them saying I’m subservient in some manner.

how I grew up bitch is along the lines of a punk or sissy, but like I said if you view it different that’s you.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I was using the word in lieu of calling them whining complainers, but I see where Eric’s POV is valid. Didn’t even consciously cross my mind that way, but that’s part of where inherent bias may be playing a role in how I’m thinking, still. Better to eliminate the use of the word in both contexts. I ain’t perfect and can and want to always evolve when someone shines a light on something that needs changing.

I get that, but this whole conversation got me thinking about word usage and evolution. I think when bitch is used in regards to sports it doesn’t mean woman. The slur has been co-opted to a non-gender usage. But I agree the easiest way to avoid any mistake is to avoid usage altogether.

 

[Finito]

I mean, I’ll allow you to clarify, what do you mean “questioning your manhood?” You state it means less than a man, right? So is that a woman or a dog? Which is less than a man? And if it’s the latter it’s not misogyny is it? If it’s the former, well, who’s the misogynist?

would you be freaking out about this if cheese had said “they’re acting like dogs?”

nobody is freaking out. I think we are having a rather calm conversation. It’s clear we come from two very different places

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

how I grew up bitch is along the lines of a punk or sissy, but like I said if you view it different that’s you.

Okay, so your thoughts if cheese said they allowed themselves to get linked, which is the equivalent in your mind?

 

[Finito]

Okay, so your thoughts if cheese said they allowed themselves to get linked, which is the equivalent in your mind?

linked?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

nobody is freaking out. I think we are having a rather calm conversation. It’s clear we come from two very different places

Yeah, it’s interesting bc in law school I played a lot of ball in very urban DC neighborhoods. I was often either the only, or one of two, white guys playing. Ages ranged from high school kids to some of the hood’s OG ballers. The word “bitch” was thrown around A LOT. It never resulted in anything. And when I say I played a lot, I’m talking 5-7 days/week.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

linked?

Lol. Spell check. Punked

 

[Cheesebeef]

linked?

you’ve never heard of that?!

 

[elindholm]

I get that, but this whole conversation got me thinking about word usage and evolution. I think when bitch is used in regards to sports it doesn’t mean woman.

I think at least 95% of women would disagree with you.

It's the same as calling someone a puss -y. Are you going to try to claim that someone really means a cat when they say that? It's a label that's both feminine and derogatory, which means that using it implies a link between that which is feminine and that which is derogatory.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think at least 95% of women would disagree with you.

It's the same as calling someone a puss -y. Are you going to try to claim that someone really means a cat when they say that? It's a label that's both feminine and derogatory, which means that using it implies a link between that which is feminine and that which is derogatory.

You’re probably right. But again I think that’s not based on logical analysis of the usage. When you consider what it means in context of usage with a woman it doesn’t make sense that we’re referencing women when using it with men. We aren’t calling the men argumentative or mean or nasty women, right? We are saying they’re allowing themselves to be punked - which would have a closer nexus to dog.

the use of wuss as a derogatory term has always been weird to me - and that’s fully with the admission that I’ve used it as such. But again I’ve used it, and think about it, as a wuss rather than female reproductive organ. But with the self-acknowledgement of your point about “wuss” I’ve lately started editing that to wuss.

 

[elindholm]

We aren’t calling the men argumentative or mean or nasty women, right? We are saying they’re allowing themselves to be punked - which would have a closer nexus to dog.

Yeah, no. Bitching about officiating means complaining in a shrill, sterotypically feminine manner. Being someone's bitch means being in a less powerful position, and since the term is sexualized (even with dogs), that's linked to being in a submissive sexual position.

I’ve lately started editing that to wuss.

I agree that it's arbitrary. "Wuss" obviously means the same thing as the p-word, but one is allowed and the other isn't. We just have to try to stay up with the current sensibilities.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yeah, no. Bitching about officiating means complaining in a shrill, sterotypically feminine manner. Being someone's bitch means being in a less powerful position, and since the term is sexualized (even with dogs), that's linked to being in a submissive sexual position.



I agree that it's arbitrary. "Wuss" obviously means the same thing as the p-word, but one is allowed and the other isn't. We just have to try to stay up with the current sensibilities.

Huh, in my mind bitching has effectively become nongenderized. But if people still think about it these terms I’ll govern my usage instead of offend anyone.

that said, going back to @Finito, I’m pretty sure you understood the point cheese was trying to make when you took umbrage with his use of the word “*******.” How would you phrase it otherwise to express your observation about how they were acting that would avoid the issue you raised?

 

[Proximo]

Ayton is not the reason the Suns lost the game.

Your fictional version of Ayton that plays like Embid could have won that game for us, but that version of Ayton has never existed.

Even in his "Good" games, the vast majority of Ayton's scoring is passes he is catching for layups.

Never ever has he been the kind of player that is good at creating a high percentage shot. I mean sure he can put up 15 footers all day, but that isn't going to win us any games because he shoots less than 40% on those.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Huh, in my mind bitching has effectively become nongenderized. But if people still think about it these terms I’ll govern my usage instead of offend anyone.

that said, going back to @Finito, I’m pretty sure you understood the point cheese was trying to make when you took umbrage with his use of the word “*******.” How would you phrase it otherwise to express your observation about how they were acting that would avoid the issue you raised?

I should have just referred to them as whining complainers. Or babies... do people think babies has an insult gendered into its definition?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Ayton is not the reason the Suns lost the game.

Your fictional version of Ayton that plays like Embid could have won that game for us, but that version of Ayton has never existed.

Even in his "Good" games, the vast majority of Ayton's scoring is passes he is catching for layups.

Never ever has he been the kind of player that is good at creating a high percentage shot. I mean sure he can put up 15 footers all day, but that isn't going to win us any games because he shoots less than 40% on those.

The entire team crapped the bed so Ayton is not alone in blame at all. He’s just been such a non-factor in SO many games lately and is the key to our D, which has fallen off a cliff in this end run towards the playoffs.

 

[Finito]

Huh, in my mind bitching has effectively become nongenderized. But if people still think about it these terms I’ll govern my usage instead of offend anyone.

that said, going back to @Finito, I’m pretty sure you understood the point cheese was trying to make when you took umbrage with his use of the word “*******.” How would you phrase it otherwise to express your observation about how they were acting that would avoid the issue you raised?

The thing with your brother is that’s not his first time. When Kyler Murray got hurt against LA he said “get up you little bitch” or something to that effect.

If you look back at my post it’s me telling him to relax and he shouldn’t get so worked up over these games.

listen you can say it a million different ways we clearly see it different like I have said time and time again. Like you said you heard it a ton in school if it doesn’t effect you and your ok with it that’s you

 

[Proximo]

The entire team crapped the bed so Ayton is not alone in blame at all. He’s just been such a non-factor in SO many games lately and is the key to our D, which has fallen off a cliff in this end run towards the playoffs.

The reason Ayton was not doing much last night defensively is because he got two quick fouls, and there is no backup for him. He has been told - DON'T FOUL.

Ayton should be the one guarding AD, but we don't even have someone capable of guarding a big stiff like Drummand.

I'm going to say this again - James Jones is to blame - and everyone should remember that before singing his praises and calling him executive of the year.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

The reason Ayton was not doing much last night defensively is because he got two quick fouls, and there is no backup for him. He has been told - DON'T FOUL.

Ayton should be the one guarding AD, but we don't even have someone capable of guarding a big stiff like Drummand.

I'm going to say this again - James Jones is to blame - and everyone should remember that before singing his praises and calling him executive of the year.

Yeah you're right let's forget about all the good things he's done to turn this team around because he didn't get enough big man depth...

Also whether or not it has a detrimental effect on the post season will have a lot to do with who we play in the playoffs. The Lakers are about the only team that can really make us pay for it and the odds of us beating them in the playoffs, even with another serviceable big man, are pretty low anyways.

 

[Suns_fan69]

I'd like to take a sec to acknowledge that while this isn't necessarily a normal topic on this board, I really appreciate the discussion here.

Also, while the term may have originated from a female dog, I agree with Eric that the connotation that is perceived is almost exclusively as the 'female/sexualized' version. This is especially true for my teenage daughter, who, until very recently didn't even know that it was used to describe a female dog. I suspect that's not unique to her, and that most kids learn the derogatory connotations first.

I've tried really hard to self-regulate that word, along with a few others (the aforementioned P-ussy and ******, amongst others) that rolled off the tongue when I was younger. It's not easy when you grow up using those words freely though.

 

[Proximo]

Yeah you're right let's forget about all the good things he's done to turn this team around because he didn't get enough big man depth...

Also whether or not it has a detrimental effect on the post season will have a lot to do with who we play in the playoffs. The Lakers are about the only team that can really make us pay for it and the odds of us beating them in the playoffs, even with another serviceable big man, are pretty low anyways.

So, you think it's acceptable to think we were going to somehow avoid the Lakers, the defending champs and conference favorites? You think it's acceptable that an injury to Ayton means the team is hopelessly screwed because we have no other defensive anchor?

I've been through Jones's record before, this is far from his only mistake, but it is a pretty unforgiveable one if he truly wanted to give this team a chance at getting to the finals.

 

[95pro]

So, you think it's acceptable to think we were going to somehow avoid the Lakers, the defending champs and conference favorites? You think it's acceptable that an injury to Ayton means the team is hopelessly screwed because we have no other defensive anchor?

I've been through Jones's record before, this is far from his only mistake, but it is a pretty unforgiveable one if he truly wanted to give this team a chance at getting to the finals.

Maybe his goal was to get to the playoffs? Or a winning percentage?

I doubt ownership says to James Jones,

"hey get us to the finals in one year, go from one of the leagues worst to the one of the best...or its your arse"

enough with the James Jones hate, we've come a long way in a short amount of time with all the holes we had, appreciate what he's done for us this year.

 

[elindholm]

So, you think it's acceptable to think we were going to somehow avoid the Lakers, the defending champs and conference favorites? You think it's acceptable that an injury to Ayton means the team is hopelessly screwed because we have no other defensive anchor?

I've been through Jones's record before, this is far from his only mistake, but it is a pretty unforgiveable one if he truly wanted to give this team a chance at getting to the finals.

You call Drummond, who is a top-20 center in the league, a "stiff," and then rake Jones over the coals for not plucking someone even better than that out of thin air? It's like you're channeling BC867.