Suns @ Nuggets Friday 10-25-19 game thread

[Phrazbit]

The way that game felt and with how much it seemed like we controlled, to lose is really bitter.

But at the same time, if a week ago I was told we'd be 1 and 1, with a blowout win and a 1 point OT loss at Denver, I'd be thrilled... and that is without any mention of Ayton's suspension, Ty Jarome or Cam Johnson's injuries.

The team looks really really good, I can't remember the last time there were not some players whom I dreaded their entry into the game. I honestly don't think the Suns have ran this deep in competent players since either the 2010 season or some point in the 90s.

 

[Phrazbit]

I can say I am lower on Oubre than most here.

He is our best worst right now. I do love his enthusiasm and hustle, but it is currently grossly outweighed by his terrible shot selection and dog crap defense in any situation besides one on one. He is honestly our worst defender right now. I know he is viewed by some as a plus defender but the stats scream that he is a huge problem on D and if you watch closely, you can see why. He is constantly gambling for steals and weak side help. Weak side help can be a good thing when the situation allows, but he does it virtually every time the opportunity presents itself and regularly leaves his own man totally undefended for an open 3 or a slash at the basket.

Oubre has talent, but his "hero ball" mentality is worse than Booker's at the moment.

 

[Bufalay]

Zero defense and poor shooting and shot selection.

Yes

 

[SunsFanFirst]

That same logic would make Paul Goldschmidt and Larry Fitzgerald losers, as well

Did I say Booker was a loser? Good grief..

And great comparison because Goldie and Fitz have the ability to impact their teams W/L as much as Booker. But Im glad you bring that up.

Is Goldschmidt worth a max deal? Absolutely not. The dbacks were no worse off without him.. still a fringe playoff team. Is Goldie a good player.. yes.. but he is worth a contract that hinders a team from affording what impacts a baseball teams W/L the most.. pitching.. hell no.

This will be wildly unpopular but as much as I love Fitz I would trade him (one of the best wrs to ever play) in a heartbeat to build a top notch O line. Of course he is a winner and deserves to be among the highest paid wrs. That said, there are other positions that have a greater impact on the W/L column than the wr position.

Anyway, as long as Arizona fans are impressed with “shiny toys” and pressure the teams to overpay to keep them our teams will continue to be just average at best

 

[Ronin]

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

 

[Bobster]

What about all of the 3-5 win seasons? I mean, winners don’t let that happen, right?

Who were they running out there at quarterback those years?

 

[TJ]

Who were they running out there at quarterback those years?

I asked the question the way I did knowing you’d make my point for me. Thank you.

Bottom line is, much like Fitz, Booker can only do so much with the people he has around him, and neither play a position in which they control the offense. The statement “he’s not a winner” is not only off base, it’s lazy.

Both are excellent talents. Both are great human beings. Both want to be in winning atmospheres, but need the right infrastructure to make that work

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I asked the question the way I did knowing you’d make my point for me. Thank you.

Bottom line is, much like Fitz, Booker can only do so much with the people he has around him, and neither play a position in which they control the offense. The statement “he’s not a winner” is not only off base, it’s lazy.

Both are excellent talents. Both are great human beings. Both want to be in winning atmospheres, but need the right infrastructure to make that work

“Winner,” at the NBA level, is certainly a yet-to-be-determined tag for booker. But it looks like he might finally have enough talent to determine which way argument is proven.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

“Winner,” at the NBA level, is certainly a yet-to-be-determined tag for booker. But it looks like he might finally have enough talent to determine which way argument is proven.

I sound like fortune cookie

 

[Bobster]

I asked the question the way I did knowing you’d make my point for me. Thank you.

Bottom line is, much like Fitz, Booker can only do so much with the people he has around him, and neither play a position in which they control the offense. The statement “he’s not a winner” is not only off base, it’s lazy.

Both are excellent talents. Both are great human beings. Both want to be in winning atmospheres, but need the right infrastructure to make that work

Unlike Fitzgerald, Booker hasn't proven himself to be among the all-time elite at his position. He hasn't even really been in consideration for an All-Star spot at this point. Inefficient offence and porous defense will do that for you.

Fitzgerald has proven that he could be a centerpiece on Super Bowl team, Booker hasn't even proven that he can lead his team to the playoffs. Booker is probably at best your third player on a championship contender, that could change if he plays consistent defense and shoots a higher percentage. Until then, he's just an inefficient high-volume scorer who may or may not make his team better.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Unlike Fitzgerald, Booker hasn't proven himself to be among the all-time elite at his position. He hasn't even really been in consideration for an All-Star spot at this point. Inefficient offence and porous defense will do that for you.

Fitzgerald has proven that he could be a centerpiece on Super Bowl team, Booker hasn't even proven that he can lead his team to the playoffs. Booker is probably at best your third player on a championship contender, that could change if he plays consistent defense and shoots a higher percentage. Until then, he's just an inefficient high-volume scorer who may or may not make his team better.

How could you possibly know this? The only thing stopping him from being an all star the last 2 years has been a losing record and amazing guard depth in the west (if his team was winning or he was in the east he would have been an all star already). Who is to say that the coaches that vote for the reserves weren't strongly considering Booker for the all star game?

 

[Raze]

I watched this game again today. I'm extremely impressed with Monty and Book in the first two games. This team is competitive and has excellent chemistry.

I think I can tell you why Book isn't himself. Because the dude is ACTUALLY trying hard on D, which is expending a ton of energy. I've been super hard on him for being a terrible Defender over the years. In the first 2 games this year he has made tremendous strides. You can tell he's locked in. I can't believe what I'm seeing out of him. He's still not great, and probably never will be, but we can win a championship if he continues this trend. I fully expect his O to pick back up once he adjusts to this level of energy exertion. Once again, I hope Monty keeps his minutes closer to 32 as he's playing both ends of the court now.

I'm super proud of this team so far. Dario has been the only disappointment, but for some reason I'm not mad. I think it's because there have been so many other pluses I'm just enjoying how far we've come. (And Dario has been working his butt off. It's not like he's pulling an Ariza. He just isn't hitting shots.)

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I watched this game again today. I'm extremely impressed with Monty and Book in the first two games. This team is competitive and has excellent chemistry.

I think I can tell you why Book isn't himself. Because the dude is ACTUALLY trying hard on D, which is expending a ton of energy. I've been super hard on him for being a terrible Defender over the years. In the first 2 games this year he has made tremendous strides. You can tell he's locked in. I can't believe what I'm seeing out of him. He's still not great, and probably never will be, but we can win a championship if he continues this trend. I fully expect his O to pick back up once he adjusts to this level of energy exertion. Once again, I hope Monty keeps his minutes closer to 32 as he's playing both ends of the court now.

I'm super proud of this team so far. Dario has been the only disappointment, but for some reason I'm not mad. I think it's because there have been so many other pluses I'm just enjoying how far we've come. (And Dario has been working his butt off. It's not like he's pulling an Ariza. He just isn't hitting shots.)

Exactly, he just hasn't fully had his legs under in the first couple games. It will take some time for him to get into the level of game shape that is going to be required with this much effort.

Dario just hasn't gotten his shot going, but has been a positive in just about every other way.

 

[Bobster]

How could you possibly know this? The only thing stopping him from being an all star the last 2 years has been a losing record and amazing guard depth in the west (if his team was winning or he was in the east he would have been an all star already). Who is to say that the coaches that vote for the reserves weren't strongly considering Booker for the all star game?

He finished 8th, 9th, and 14th in the voting for the Western Conference backcourt the last three years. And he hasn't been mentioned as being under serious consideration for a reserver spot any of those years.

The consensus has pretty much been that while he scores a lot of his points, his defense is bad and he plays for a bad team. So they weren't going to pick him over Harden, Curry, Lillard, Westbrook or Thompson. Lets not kid ourselves.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

He finished 8th, 9th, and 14th in the voting for the Western Conference backcourt the last three years. And he hasn't been mentioned as being under serious consideration for a reserver spot any of those years.

The consensus has pretty much been that while he scores a lot of his points, his defense is bad and he plays for a bad team. So they weren't going to pick him over Harden, Curry, Lillard, Westbrook or Thompson. Lets not kid ourselves.

So you quoted the fan votes to prove me wrong? The fans only vote in the starters and the coaches vote in the reserves and you have no way of knowing what their thoughts were on him. All I know is that Booker seems to be much more highly regarded by other players and coaches than he typically is from fans. Also like I said he was competing in a stacked western conference where there are at least a couple worthy players every year that get snubbed.

Let's not kid ourselves if Booker was even playing on a poor eastern conference team the last couple years he would already have been an all-star.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

How could you possibly know this? The only thing stopping him from being an all star the last 2 years has been a losing record and amazing guard depth in the west (if his team was winning or he was in the east he would have been an all star already). Who is to say that the coaches that vote for the reserves weren't strongly considering Booker for the all star game?

Lol in one breath you say “how could you possibly know...” and in the next you state definitively “if his team was winning or he was in the east he would have been an all star already“ - the hypocrisy runs strong in this one!

At the end of the day we all only know actual facts - booker has neither been voted as an all-star by the fans not chosen as an all-star. Thus, all we really know is that beyond our hopes that he’s an all-star, thus far in his career he’s not.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Lol in one breath you say “how could you possibly know...” and in the next you state definitively “if his team was winning or he was in the east he would have been an all star already“ - the hypocrisy runs strong in this one!

At the end of the day we all only know actual facts - booker has neither been voted as an all-star by the fans not chosen as an all-star. Thus, all we really know is that beyond our hopes that he’s an all-star, thus far in his career he’s not.

It may seem that way, but it's easy to see it. The east is starved for talent, thus anyone putting up 26/7 is getting into the all star game in that conference. Also anyone putting up 26/7 on a winning team is getting in the all star game in the west. He's just had the misfortune of having both of those obstacles.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

So you quoted the fan votes to prove me wrong? The fans only vote in the starters and the coaches vote in the reserves and you have no way of knowing what their thoughts were on him. All I know is that Booker seems to be much more highly regarded by other players and coaches than he typically is from fans. Also like I said he was competing in a stacked western conference where there are at least a couple worthy players every year that get snubbed.

Let's not kid ourselves if Booker was even playing on a poor eastern conference team the last couple years he would already have been an all-star.

First let me apologize, I swear I’m not trying to pick on you. But the bolded statement has me laughing. We don’t know their thoughts on him other than the fact that they did not vote him in as an all-star (dunno about the rest of you, but that kinda tells me what they think of him).

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

First let me apologize, I swear I’m not trying to pick on you. But the bolded statement has me laughing. We don’t know their thoughts on him other than the fact that they did not vote him in as an all-star (dunno about the rest of you, but that kinda tells me what they think of him).

I am saying there is no way he can know that they aren't considering him. Obviously he hasn't been voted in as there is a lot of talent in the west and he has been on a losing team making it almost impossible for him to get in over other great players on winning teams. That doesn't mean that they aren't at least considering him for a spot and he may even be getting some votes from the coaches as well, but ultimately his circumstances in the last couple years have made it extremely unlikely for him to actually get in.

 

[Hoop Head]

One reason I think Booker is at an All-Star level, or near it, despite not getting in is how the media latched onto him as the difference maker that didn't go to the World Cup. I know the criteria has changed when selecting players for Team USA but with how quickly the sports media went from "Team USA needs more stars!" this summer to "Team USA doesn't lose these games if Devin Booker went, like he was supposed to!" says he's viewed as a star by most of the basketball world. His time will come to be an All-Star but I think it's safe to say that he is a star.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I am saying there is no way he can know that they aren't considering him. Obviously he hasn't been voted in as there is a lot of talent in the west and he has been on a losing team making it almost impossible for him to get in over other great players on winning teams. That doesn't mean that they aren't at least considering him for a spot and he may even be getting some votes from the coaches as well, but ultimately his circumstances in the last couple years have made it extremely unlikely for him to actually get in.

Go back and reread your posts. You were saying he would’ve been, not that he was considered. And of course he was likely (again, it’s likely, but even that’s conjecture without actual knowledge) considered. But what we DO know - really the only thing we know - about his being an all star is that he wasn’t voted one.

btw - tonight he played like one!

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

One reason I think Booker is at an All-Star level, or near it, despite not getting in is how the media latched onto him as the difference maker that didn't go to the World Cup. I know the criteria has changed when selecting players for Team USA but with how quickly the sports media went from "Team USA needs more stars!" this summer to "Team USA doesn't lose these games if Devin Booker went, like he was supposed to!" says he's viewed as a star by most of the basketball world. His time will come to be an All-Star but I think it's safe to say that he is a star.

That and the way that other players, coaches and GMs talk about him. He is always talked about with very high regard from all of those people, but just hasn't been on a good team.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Go back and reread your posts. You were saying he would’ve been, not that he was considered. And of course he was likely (again, it’s likely, but even that’s conjecture without actual knowledge) considered. But what we DO know - really the only thing we know - about his being an all star is that he wasn’t voted one.

btw - tonight he played like one!

And him not being voted does not suggest that he wasn't considered. That was my point in the first place. As to whether or not he would have made it on a winning team or in the east, sure that may not be something I can prove, but it sure seems like something that is very easy to deduct based on some of the players that made those teams instead of him.

 

[BC867]

All Book needed was to return to his natural position
of Shooting Guard (and a decent distributing one
at that).

Now he can take the extra effort he had to exert
to bring the ball up the court on most offensive
sets and devote that to upgrading his defense.

Which he has already begun to show, after only
a few games

He was not only on a bad team, he was on a
dysfunctional team, in terns of position assignments.