Suns @ Nuggets Sunday game thread, October 13th, 2024: Preseason

Cheesebeef

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International players are more selfless. Ginobili could’ve been a bigger star if he played somewhere else. Speaking of the Spurs they really had two #1 picks that turned into superstars and were completely drama free in Robinson/Duncan. That’s just crazy/unfair luck.

That was also the decision of a coach who’d built a culture and already won a title as well.

A Pop or a Jackson (in his prime) or a Riley type could probably convince a Beal type player to be a 6th man, but I don’t think Bud has that cache as a first year coach, regardless of the one title he won somewhere else.
 

Cheesebeef

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I’m gonna say something COMPLETELY wild… like, Cheese is beyond dreaming and this is likely the most optimistic question/projection for anything Suns related ever:

Is Dunn’s ceiling somewhere around a healthy Kawhi?
 

GatorAZ

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I’m gonna say something COMPLETELY wild… like, Cheese is beyond dreaming and this is likely the most optimistic question/projection for anything Suns related ever:

Is Dunn’s ceiling somewhere around a healthy Kawhi?

You mean a healthy Kawhi in 2024? Peak Kawhi is a top-5 forward all time…
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I’m gonna say something COMPLETELY wild… like, Cheese is beyond dreaming and this is likely the most optimistic question/projection for anything Suns related ever:

Is Dunn’s ceiling somewhere around a healthy Kawhi?
Don’t think he has kahwi’s handles.
 

Yuma

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The points that Dunn produces from his defense have to be considered. Beal does not create that. It's probably a mistake to start a rookie immediately out of training camp, but the Suns will have to consider it over the next few months. They will get to see how different lineups work together.
He should earn the minutes. However, there's a need for what he brings. We have time to develop him. IF he stays on this trajectory, and can really play defense on the best opposing player, someone is going to the bench.
 

Hoop Head

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I’m gonna say something COMPLETELY wild… like, Cheese is beyond dreaming and this is likely the most optimistic question/projection for anything Suns related ever:

Is Dunn’s ceiling somewhere around a healthy Kawhi?

I was thinking Pacer Artest minus the crazy is his ceiling. I think Dunn is more physical defensively than Kawhi, who was more a master of position. Offensively I think he compares better to a modern Artest. He doesn't have the handles to carry an offense but he can be a 3rd or 2nd option.
 

Peter Sheldon

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I’m gonna say something COMPLETELY wild… like, Cheese is beyond dreaming and this is likely the most optimistic question/projection for anything Suns related ever:

Is Dunn’s ceiling somewhere around a healthy Kawhi?
Maybe not quite peak Kawhi, but Dunn could certainly be very special. It's sooo unusual for Suns to find a diamond it the rough in any part of the NBA draft, much less late first round. Hell, this guy is way better then all those flame-outs we had with top five pick's in the past! The beauty of Dunn, is that even if he is having a bad shooting night, his defense is still going to still be there. I'd always give him at least 10-15 minutes per game if I were Bud.
 

CardsSunsDbacks

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Maybe not quite peak Kawhi, but Dunn could certainly be very special. It's sooo unusual for Suns to find a diamond it the rough in any part of the NBA draft, much less late first round. Hell, this guy is way better then all those flame-outs we had with top five pick's in the past! The beauty of Dunn, is that even if he is having a bad shooting night, his defense is still going to still be there. I'd always give him at least 10-15 minutes per game if I were Bud.
To be fair, Chriss showed some promise early on and Jackson had his moments as well. What I will give Dunn is that he looks like he simply knows what he is doing. That is especially rare for a young player on defense. Hopefully he isn't just on a hot streak and he actually brings this to the regular season. I am leaning towards the idea that he will. It's not just that he is making shots and coming up with defensive plays, but also the way he looks doing it.

The last young player we had that I could see something special in very early on was Booker (as early as his first SL) and we see how that panned out.
 

Peter Sheldon

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To be fair, Chriss showed some promise early on and Jackson had his moments as well. What I will give Dunn is that he looks like he simply knows what he is doing. That is especially rare for a young player on defense. Hopefully he isn't just on a hot streak and he actually brings this to the regular season. I am leaning towards the idea that he will. It's not just that he is making shots and coming up with defensive plays, but also the way he looks doing it.

The last young player we had that I could see something special in very early on was Booker (as early as his first SL) and we see how that panned out.
I see your point, but in my mind, if you are selected top 5 in the draft, your floor should be a solid bench player, not out of the league. That's some serious lack of doing your homework on draft selection to me. If nothing else, you need high IQ players with at least one elite skill. Suns have been fairly bad at this. Sure sometimes they do well: Booker, the twins. It'd be interesting to see how Suns compare to other teams at making picks. Of course, if your the Spurs, things are just gifted to you.
 

CardsSunsDbacks

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I see your point, but in my mind, if you are selected top 5 in the draft, your floor should be a solid bench player, not out of the league. That's some serious lack of doing your homework on draft selection to me. If nothing else, you need high IQ players with at least one elite skill. Suns have been fairly bad at this. Sure sometimes they do well: Booker, the twins. It'd be interesting to see how Suns compare to other teams at making picks. Of course, if your the Spurs, things are just gifted to you.
Not sure I would put it all on scouting or homework. They simply were using a poor scouting philosophy where they were drafting more on potential than on substance (developed NBA skills). We have seen this work out in some cases and lead to absolute flops in others.

I think the reality is that you should only draft purely for potential when it is late first or in the 2nd round. You should try to draft a sure thing when you are drafting in the lottery. We did that with Booker due to his perceived shooting ability and it worked out quite well. Chriss, Bender and Jackson were examples of guys that were more potential than substance. Jackson was quite good in college to be fair, but didn't have much in terms of defined NBA skills coming in.

This philosophy caused us to miss out on guys like Sabonis, Murray, Fox, possibly Tatum assuming the rumors about Boston liking Jackson were true, Markkanen and Doncic. In those drafts we focused more on the potential of a player than just how good of basketball player they are. To be fair Ayton probably was more of a homework fail as there were some red flags about his work ethic from what I remember.
 

Peter Sheldon

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Not sure I would put it all on scouting or homework. They simply were using a poor scouting philosophy where they were drafting more on potential than on substance (developed NBA skills). We have seen this work out in some cases and lead to absolute flops in others.

I think the reality is that you should only draft purely for potential when it is late first or in the 2nd round. You should try to draft a sure thing when you are drafting in the lottery. We did that with Booker due to his perceived shooting ability and it worked out quite well. Chriss, Bender and Jackson were examples of guys that were more potential than substance. Jackson was quite good in college to be fair, but didn't have much in terms of defined NBA skills coming in.

This philosophy caused us to miss out on guys like Sabonis, Murray, Fox, possibly Tatum assuming the rumors about Boston liking Jackson were true, Markkanen and Doncic. In those drafts we focused more on the potential of a player than just how good of basketball player they are. To be fair Ayton probably was more of a homework fail as there were some red flags about his work ethic from what I remember.
agreed. Poor Scouting Philosophy. If you plan or get lucky enough to nab a top 5 pick, you CANNOT go strictly on potential. You must get a sure thing that can produce and have at least even odds of eventually becoming part of your starting five. Maybe you endured a whole season of tanking. You cannot let that go to waste. I thinks it's a major reason for Suns lost decade. The problem with Ayton was (as you say) we didn't listen to the warnings and he was the perfect fit for what the Suns needed, so it was just too damn appealing to pass up.
 

leclerc

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The Suns have an open roster spot, so they have the room.

In an ideal world, where money is not a problem, I'd probably sign Collin Gillespie and Frank Kaminsky to the regular roster, waiving Bol Bol.
Agreed. I like Bol, but I'm not sure how often he is a net positive. Perhaps him or Damion Lee, since Lee plays the same position as Gillespie, more or less.
 

Chris_Sanders

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I’m gonna say something COMPLETELY wild… like, Cheese is beyond dreaming and this is likely the most optimistic question/projection for anything Suns related ever:

Is Dunn’s ceiling somewhere around a healthy Kawhi?

I would say Bridges, which is pretty great.
 

Cheesebeef

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Kawhi finished 2nd in MVP voting at 24 years old. I can’t tell if you’re being serious about the comp.
You did notice I said it’s a WILD RIDICULOUS question.
I would say Bridges, which is pretty great.
Oh, I think his ceiling is higher than Bridges. But that's a pretty good comp. Bridges is a good defender and good scorer. This kid has the tools to be an absolutely elite defender, both one on one and team D and if this 3 ball stroke is real, the sky's the limit for him on offense.
 

GatorAZ

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You did notice I said it’s a WILD RIDICULOUS question.

Oh, I think his ceiling is higher than Bridges. But that's a pretty good comp. Bridges is a good defender and good scorer. This kid has the tools to be an absolutely elite defender, both one on one and team D and if this 3 ball stroke is real, the sky's the limit for him on offense.

This is getting crazy. If he’s a homeless man’s Mikal we hit the jackpot.
 

Cheesebeef

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This is getting crazy. If he’s a homeless man’s Mikal we hit the jackpot.

I’m not saying he’s going to be Mikal THIS season. I’m talking about his ceiling. He’s a better athlete, has the look of being a better on ball and team defender and if he can shoot anything like this, that’s a very high ceiling.

I think Mikal, while being a good player, is one of the most overrated players of all time on this board.

Dude has made ONE ALL-Defense 1st or 2nd team in his entire career. He’s a good defender, but not elite and repeatedly got his lunch eaten in the playoffs on defense and fetal positioned on offense with his shooting percentage always plummeted in the playoffs. That is when he’s even made the playoffs a whopping TWO times in his career.
 

CardsSunsDbacks

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I’m not saying he’s going to be Mikal THIS season. I’m talking about his ceiling. He’s a better athlete, has the look of being a better on ball and team defender and if he can shoot anything like this, that’s a very high ceiling.

I think Mikal, while being a good player, is one of the most overrated players of all time on this board.

Dude has made ONE ALL-Defense 1st or 2nd team in his entire career. He’s a good defender, but not elite and repeatedly got his lunch eaten in the playoffs on defense and fetal positioned on offense with his shooting percentage always plummeted in the playoffs. That is when he’s even made the playoffs a whopping TWO times in his career.
Mikal's biggest issue as a defender is that he doesn't match up against a lot of the league's best scorers. He can do a good job on some of the smaller guards, but guys like Curry and Lillard for instance can go off anyways. He gets absolutely bodied by someone like Luka or LeBron. Dunn has a chance to stand up to those guys defensively while still being a bit of a pest for guards as well.
 

JCSunsfan

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I’m gonna say something COMPLETELY wild… like, Cheese is beyond dreaming and this is likely the most optimistic question/projection for anything Suns related ever:

Is Dunn’s ceiling somewhere around a healthy Kawhi?
I am shocked. Just shocked. I was thinking of Scottie Pippen myself.

It's just preseason, but still, he looks so good. He looks better than Book did at this stage. He looks better than Mikal did at this stage. The combo of defense, quick hands, size, athleticism, mid-range offense, and now three-point shooting. It looks to me like he can go as far as has has it between his ears to go. I get the sense that he is more of a complementary player.

His great fortune is that he came into the league under a head coach who wants him to launch the three all the time. That does wonders for his development.
 
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