Suns Off-season Thread

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I liked him a lot and for some of the same reasons. I just don't think he was all that special as an actual Coach. I think very highly of Monty, I'm not convinced he's anything special as a Coach either. But look at the difference in the way we talk about the two of them here.

I think the difference is likely due to proximity in time. 20 years from now if monty is here awhile and we have playoff success kids today will refer to monty in the same tones. Remember, we were all a lot younger in cottons years.

 

[Mainstreet]

I liked him a lot and for some of the same reasons. I just don't think he was all that special as an actual Coach. I think very highly of Monty, I'm not convinced he's anything special as a Coach either. But look at the difference in the way we talk about the two of them here.

Cotton had a way of making almost everyone feel special and connected the fans to the team. I think this why Cotton is remembered so fondly.

When Suns fans booed when they drafted Dan Majerle, he told fans they would be sorry and sure enough they were. It's this connection to the fans that is remembered.

In those days fans could get close to coaches and players during training camp and draft events.

 

[Raindog]

When Suns fans booed when they drafted Dan Majerle, he told fans they would be sorry and sure enough they were. It's this connection to the fans that is remembered.

I was one of those booing (well, not in person, actually). I thought Majerle was a joke of a pick... and I was waaay wrong. It was rarely wise to second guess the Suns scouts during the Jerry C. era.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I was one of those booing (well, not in person, actually). I thought Majerle was a joke of a pick... and I was waaay wrong. It was rarely wise to second guess the Suns scouts during the Jerry C. era.

Yup. I was bummed when we ended up with Marion instead of maggette. Maggette was good but he couldn’t match Marion’s career. Jerry also drafted Oliver Miller late, Michael Finley late (I was screaming in favor of that pick), Wesley person late, ced ceballos and Richard Dumas were late picks. It was really only the talent acquisition of bigs where they had missteps like trade for mustaff and drafting Malcom Mackey (I liked the selection at the time).

 

[Cheesebeef]

Not to speak ill of the deceased but Cotton was no Cotton Fitzsimmons either. It was an important time for us and Cotton said all the right things but I really don't get the "legend" of Cotton that is almost revered here.

He was a decent coach throughout his long career but his teams won at a 52% clip during the regular season and he only won 42% of his playoff games.

Whether it was with the Suns, Atlanta, Buffalo, KC or San Antonio I don't believe his teams ever went further than a conference finals loss and most of the time his team either failed to make the postseason or was outed in the first round.

I'm not suggesting he was a failure by any means it's just that he doesn't seem to be measured by the same standards all of our other coaches have been.

You’re not alone. Thing I really give cotton credit for was putting us back on the map after the drug scandal, kicking the CRAP out of the 1990 Lakers and effectively ending Showtime as Riley left after our 4-1 demolition and knowing well enough in 1992 that “we need a Charles Barkley.”

Big things in suns history for sure, but legend-like praise I never quite got.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yup. I was bummed when we ended up with Marion instead of maggette. Maggette was good but he couldn’t match Marion’s career. Jerry also drafted Oliver Miller late, Michael Finley late (I was screaming in favor of that pick), Wesley person late, ced ceballos and Richard Dumas were late picks. It was really only the talent acquisition of bigs where they had missteps like trade for mustaff and drafting Malcom Mackey (I liked the selection at the time).

Come on. Mustaf was a stone cold killer.

 

[Hoop Head]

I think Cotton is endeared so much because of what he did for the team in addition to coaching. He worked in the front office and was also a color commentator, with the latter making fans feel more connected with him. He was a good commentator as well also that had great chemistry with Al McCoy during one of the teams best eras, the Barkley years.

Not many coaches know when it's time to step aside also but Cotton did. Whether the Barkley Suns would have been more successful with Cotton on the bench vs Westphal is debatable but there aren't many who would do that after acquiring a superstar like Barkley in his prime.

I think there is sort of a Mark West effect also. By that is mean since he's been with the Suns organization for so long and wore so many different hats that the position he's most know for is overstated. I call it the Mark West effect because he was still with the team last I checked 2-3 years ago. If our Center gave us what West did back in the day we'd all be calling for an upgrade or the GM's head for running with him for so long.

 

[somethingshesaid]

kicking the CRAP out of the 1990 Lakers and effectively ending Showtime as Riley left after our 4-1 demolition

Big things in suns history for sure, but legend-like praise I never quite got.

I can't know how many members were fans back then (it was three years too early for me); but I have always wanted to hear more detail about that 1990 series. I have never found much documentation on it, as with the 1976 and 1993 Finals trips (which both had books). How exactly did the Suns kick the crap out of the fakers? The only thing I can guess is that those Lakers were old and tired, and that the new Suns team absolutely ambushed them with its youth and energy.

Accomplishing anything feels so much better when there are no expectations placed on you. In the Suns' case, because their franchise had been ruined by scandal and they were given no regard. If expectations for you are very high, it may be logically impossible to exceed them, e.g. if people actually expect you to win a championship. To "exceed expectations," you'd have to break the Warriors' regular-season records, sweep all playoff opponents, and win every game by Dream Team I-like margins. If you win and the world had never been paying attention to you, there's no pressure, and you are more likely to think "it's great to be alive." But if I were the current Suns team, I probably wouldn't care about anything but redeeming my recent shame. Not the best time.

This is undoubtedly why I am interested in that upset and, more generally, the years between the scandal and Barkley; and why I suspect that in a way, it was the best possible time to be a Phoenix Sun.

 

[somethingshesaid]

I thought about the Mavericks: seemingly nobody has any regard for them, being too aware that they beat the Suns only because the Suns imploded; and nobody assumes that they'll do anything impressive later. Especially since the Warriors promptly beat them as thoroughly as the 1990 Suns beat the 1990 Lakers.

That could be a salutary thing for the Mavericks: it allows them to gain confidence without feeling the pressure of high expectations.

And the opposite: could that be what happened with DeAndre Ayton's performance? That he cracked under the pressure?

 

[Western Font]

I can't know how many members were fans back then (it was three years too early for me); but I have always wanted to hear more detail about that 1990 series. I have never found much documentation on it, as with the 1976 and 1993 Finals trips (which both had books). How exactly did the Suns kick the crap out of the fakers? The only thing I can guess is that those Lakers were old and tired, and that the new Suns team absolutely ambushed them with its youth and energy.

Accomplishing anything feels so much better when there are no expectations placed on you. In the Suns' case, because their franchise had been ruined by scandal and they were given no regard. If expectations for you are very high, it may be logically impossible to exceed them, e.g. if people actually expect you to win a championship. To "exceed expectations," you'd have to break the Warriors' regular-season records, sweep all playoff opponents, and win every game by Dream Team I-like margins. If you win and the world had never been paying attention to you, there's no pressure, and you are more likely to think "it's great to be alive." But if I were the current Suns team, I probably wouldn't care about anything but redeeming my recent shame. Not the best time.

This is undoubtedly why I am interested in that upset and, more generally, the years between the scandal and Barkley; and why I suspect that in a way, it was the best possible time to be a Phoenix Sun.

This is my favorite Suns team and also my brother’s. Other posters definitely put them up there. Maybe it’s that there have been a bunch of underachieving Suns rosters and this one overachieved? It felt like a new beginning and was a breath of fresh air after the scandals.

They were also the first to beat the Lakers, who had swept them the year before and eliminated them in six (over half) of the Suns playoff appearances. A couple times with Kareem, whom the Suns couldn’t draft after losing the coin flip. How they did it? They were good enough and they just played really hard. They weren’t scared in the Forum. And the Lakers were probably not expecting it.

As for Cotton, part of it is just he’s the Suns coach many of us would have most liked to see win. He felt local.

 

[Cheesebeef]

This is my favorite Suns team and also my brother’s. Other posters definitely put them up there. Maybe it’s that there have been a bunch of underachieving Suns rosters and this one overachieved? It felt like a new beginning and was a breath of fresh air after the scandals.

They were also the first to beat the Lakers, who had swept them the year before and eliminated them in six (over half) of the Suns playoff appearances. A couple times with Kareem, whom the Suns couldn’t draft after losing the coin flip. How they did it? They were good enough and they just played really hard. They weren’t scared in the Forum. And the Lakers were probably not expecting it.

As for Cotton, part of it is just he’s the Suns coach many of us would have most liked to see win. He felt local.

1988-1995 were really the peak years for the Suns. The KJ/Horny/Chambers gang to revitalized the team, got to a couple WCFs and then Barkley super-energized the squad in 1993 making the Finals and the Suns kind of became the center of the NBA universe for three years despite never winning a title.

 

[AzStevenCal]

As for Cotton, part of it is just he’s the Suns coach many of us would have most liked to see win. He felt local.

I guess my perspective is a little different from most of you. I liked Cotton, even from his original stint with the Suns although it felt like his teams often underperformed their talent level and not just with us.

In the early 70's Cotton coached a Suns roster that included Dick Van Arsdale, Mel Counts, Connie Hawkins, Paul Silas, Charlie Scott, Neal Walk and Clem Haskins and we couldn't even make the playoffs with them. His replacement was an even bigger disappointment but still, that was an extremely talented team that lost some perplexing games during the season.

But I guess the thing that stayed with me the most about Cotton is that, as far as I know, he really only had two trips to the postseason where his team played above expectations.

One of Cotton's 2 playoff surprises was the already discussed amazing beatdown over the heavily favored Lakers, the other was when his KC team knocked off a much better Phoenix Suns team.

Our roster of Walter Davis, Dennis Johnson, Alvan Adams, Truck Robinson, Jeff Cook and Rich Kelley won 57 games and had been seeded into the semifinals - we faced a mediocre 40 win Kansas City team we had dominated in the postseason the two previous years. For me, it was almost as big a disappointment as our loss this season.

 

[Mainstreet]

One of the strategies (for the lack of a better word) from the Cotton era, was win at home and play .500 on the road.

It's still a good benchmark even in today's NBA.

Again, I don't think what Cotton brought to the game can be measured in wins and losses. When he was the coach, I didn't feel like an outsider looking in. I even remember calling him when he used to take questions from fans on the radio.

 

[somethingshesaid]

This is my favorite Suns team and also my brother’s. Other posters definitely put them up there. Maybe it’s that there have been a bunch of underachieving Suns rosters and this one overachieved? It felt like a new beginning and was a breath of fresh air after the scandals.

They were also the first to beat the Lakers, who had swept them the year before and eliminated them in six (over half) of the Suns playoff appearances. A couple times with Kareem, whom the Suns couldn’t draft after losing the coin flip. How they did it? They were good enough and they just played really hard. They weren’t scared in the Forum. And the Lakers were probably not expecting it.

As for Cotton, part of it is just he’s the Suns coach many of us would have most liked to see win. He felt local.

Yes! Since the skill of a coach is incredibly difficult to discern (because of the difficulty of isolating him from his players in the evaluation), it's not because of Cotton's coaching skill that we like him. It's because he made himself a permanent part of the Suns. Operated on a handshake agreement with Jerry Colangelo, and more than once returned to coaching the Suns when he didn't have to. Probably no one out there would accept a handshake agreement with Robert Sarver, and Sarver probably wouldn't accept it from them.

 

[somethingshesaid]

I guess my perspective is a little different from most of you. I liked Cotton, even from his original stint with the Suns although it felt like his teams often underperformed their talent level and not just with us.

In the early 70's Cotton coached a Suns roster that included Dick Van Arsdale, Mel Counts, Connie Hawkins, Paul Silas, Charlie Scott, Neal Walk and Clem Haskins and we couldn't even make the playoffs with them. His replacement was an even bigger disappointment but still, that was an extremely talented team that lost some perplexing games during the season.

But I guess the thing that stayed with me the most about Cotton is that, as far as I know, he really only had two trips to the postseason where his team played above expectations.

One of Cotton's 2 playoff surprises was the already discussed amazing beatdown over the heavily favored Lakers, the other was when his KC team knocked off a much better Phoenix Suns team.

Our roster of Walter Davis, Dennis Johnson, Alvan Adams, Truck Robinson, Jeff Cook and Rich Kelley won 57 games and had been seeded into the semifinals - we faced a mediocre 40 win Kansas City team we had dominated in the postseason the two previous years. For me, it was almost as big a disappointment as our loss this season.

You would have to show me some evidence of how responsible Cotton was for that. Otherwise, I'm not willing to make assumptions. How would I know that some of those Suns players didn't just quit on Cotton like DeAndre Ayton quit on everyone? If they did and I blamed Cotton, then I should also blame Monty Williams for Ayton quitting.

(And that means everyone. Ayton also quit on the fans, and wasted the playoff ticketholders' money.)

I was just looking up that Suns-Kings series, mainly because the year wasn't mentioned and I wanted to know. I should share what I found: https://www.nba.com/suns/history/cottons-kings

It sounds pretty darn embarrassing, because it states that half the Kings team was injured. At least these Suns didn't get beaten by a half-strength team with a 40-42 record. It made me wonder whether some of the Suns players were already using drugs; but nah, they probably didn't start years before the scandal. Probably.

 

[AzStevenCal]

You would have to show me some evidence of how responsible Cotton was for that. Otherwise, I'm not willing to make assumptions. How would I know that some of those Suns players didn't just quit on Cotton like DeAndre Ayton quit on everyone? If they did and I blamed Cotton, then I should also blame Monty Williams for Ayton quitting.

(And that means everyone. Ayton also quit on the fans, and wasted the playoff ticketholders' money.)

I was just looking up that Suns-Kings series, mainly because the year wasn't mentioned and I wanted to know. I should share what I found: https://www.nba.com/suns/history/cottons-kings

It sounds pretty darn embarrassing, because it states that half the Kings team was injured. At least these Suns didn't get beaten by a half-strength team with a 40-42 record. It made me wonder whether some of the Suns players were already using drugs; but nah, they probably didn't start years before the scandal. Probably.

But that's the thing, you're making assumptions about Monty (and Ayton) with little information. We know Monty reportedly made that comment but there's no context. Was the game still winnable? Did Monty say it out of frustration because DA didn't want to go back into a blowout in a game where he was once again ignored by the point guard? I don't know. I don't believe any of us do.

And I have even less knowledge and awareness as to why the Suns stumbled against that mediocre Kings team. I had my opinions at the time but we have access to so much more information today, back then we were lucky to even see the playoff games until hours after they finished.

So, in no way am I saying that loss (or any playoff loss) was Cotton's fault, I'm just exploring the difference in how you and other's here seem to hold him less accountable than all the other coaches we've had.

Also, you should read some more articles about that "scandal". From my understanding, much more was made of it than the situation warranted. Although at the time, I'll admit, I thought we were drug central for the league. Turns out the NBA had a league wide problem and we had a local "crusader" that wanted to make a name for himelf. It was a match made in hell for us.

 

[somethingshesaid]

Also, you should read some more articles about that "scandal". From my understanding, much more was made of it than the situation warranted. Although at the time, I'll admit, I thought we were drug central for the league. Turns out the NBA had a league wide problem and we had a local "crusader" that wanted to make a name for himelf. It was a match made in hell for us.

Yeah, I've done it. I remember the man's name--the one who was, or later became (I forget which) attorney general of Arizona--but I will take a cue from you and avoid mentioning it. It was said that the man went on a fishing expedition. I know well enough that the drug use was a scandal mostly because he and the media made it one. Bet Jerry Colangelo looked into taking legal action. Doesn't matter, if we're referencing it only as some event that destroyed the Suns franchise.

So sad that drugs ruined what was left of Walter Davis' Suns career.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Yeah, I've done it. I remember the man's name--the one who was, or later became (I forget which) attorney general of Arizona--but I will take a cue from you and avoid mentioning it. It was said that the man went on a fishing expedition. I know well enough that the drug use was a scandal mostly because he and the media made it one. Doesn't matter, if we're referencing it only as some event that destroyed the Suns franchise.

So sad that drugs ruined what was left of Walter Davis' Suns career.

I didn't mean it that way, it was a key moment in Suns history. It's just not quite as dirty as it seemed at the time.

Yeah Sweet D deserves a higher place amongst Suns fans, he truly was a special player. But overblown scandal or not, he made the decision to do coke so it's not like he's blameless.

 

[Covert Rain]

1988-1995 were really the peak years for the Suns. The KJ/Horny/Chambers gang to revitalized the team, got to a couple WCFs and then Barkley super-energized the squad in 1993 making the Finals and the Suns kind of became the center of the NBA universe for three years despite never winning a title.

My favorite team and years. I went to so many games and playoff games during that run. So much fun and we were on National TV constantly. We were also one of the biggest road draws in the NBA.

 

[somethingshesaid]

But that's the thing, you're making assumptions about Monty (and Ayton) with little information. We know Monty reportedly made that comment but there's no context. Was the game still winnable? Did Monty say it out of frustration because DA didn't want to go back into a blowout in a game where he was once again ignored by the point guard? I don't know. I don't believe any of us do.

And I have even less knowledge and awareness as to why the Suns stumbled against that mediocre Kings team. I had my opinions at the time but we have access to so much more information today, back then we were lucky to even see the playoff games until hours after they finished.

So, in no way am I saying that loss (or any playoff loss) was Cotton's fault, I'm just exploring the difference in how you and other's here seem to hold him less accountable than all the other coaches we've had.

Also, you should read some more articles about that "scandal". From my understanding, much more was made of it than the situation warranted. Although at the time, I'll admit, I thought we were drug central for the league. Turns out the NBA had a league wide problem and we had a local "crusader" that wanted to make a name for himelf. It was a match made in hell for us.

It didn't occur to me that coach's accusation may have been incorrect. Also, I admit it did not occur to me that Chris Paul was ignoring Ayton. If that is true, I can only blame Paul for that, and hope coach convinces him to stop ignoring Ayton, in the future. ...Thinking about it, I have to say I'm suspicious that Paul has been doing it on purpose. Why? Because the Point God seemingly wouldn't do something so foolish as ignoring his starting center. Yeah...you surely mean only that he failed to feed Ayton enough, not that he did something like Michael Jordan pressuring teammates to refuse to pass to someone. Still, why would the Point God make this error unless he wanted to?

I don't know whether all these whisperings about Paul being a "jerk" are fair, but they make me uneasy: might this being a "jerk" include thinking that the Point God doesn't need to listen to anyone? I don't know, but I'm somewhat worried that if anyone leans on him to do anything different, such as feeding Ayton more or cooperating with his minuts being limited, he'll behave like Mike D'Antoni and refuse to change. He's rather old to threaten to demand a trade like Kobe Bryant, but he can retire.

I'll still take Paul over Steve Nash, who was simply the opposite. All four of the great point guards in Suns history have had some degree of suspected personality problems.

 

[Cheesebeef]

It didn't occur to me that coach's accusation may have been incorrect. Also, I admit it did not occur to me that Chris Paul was ignoring Ayton. If that is true, I can only blame Paul for that, and hope coach convinces him to stop ignoring Ayton, in the future.

All these whisperings about Paul being a "jerk" make me uneasy: might that include thinking that the Point God doesn't need to listen to anyone? I don't know, but I'm somewhat worried that if anyone leans on him to do anything different, such as feeding Ayton more or cooperating with his minuts being limited, he'll behave like Mike D'Antoni and refuse to change. He's rather old to threaten to demand a trade like Kobe Bryant, but he can retire.

It’s no secret that CP3’s act starts wearing thin with teammates after a couple years. Wouldn’t surprise me if some of that started happening here, especially after we looked good to great by the end of his injury absence and guys like Ayton and Bridges really flourished.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I was just noting that this is probably the most quiet group of playoff-contending Suns players I've ever seen. None of them yap in public like Charles Barkley. They don't even talk to the press after games as freely as, say, Nash's teammates used to. Shawn Marion was garrulous in comparison. These guys all keep a fairly low profile. The most high-profile personality is Devin Booker, and even with him, I have no idea what he's like off-the-court.

That's no criticism, you understand. I like that they don't need attention.

I don’t think they WANT attention after the embarrassment of the end of the season.

 

[Covert Rain]

It’s no secret that CP3’s act starts wearing thin with teammates after a couple years. Wouldn’t surprise me if some of that started happening here, especially after we looked good to great by the end of his injury absence and guys like Ayton and Bridges really flourished.

You know what makes it 100 TIMES WORSE?!?!

When said player is running his mouth but isn't performing. It's one thing to have someone in your ear playing like an all-star. It's another thing entirely when said player has not shown up for a string of the most important games in your season (playoffs).

 

[Mainstreet]

Forgive the football analogy, but I don't know how a team can drive the ball down field all season to the 1 yard line and not want to punch it in the end zone in game 7 against the Mavericks.

 

[GatorAZ]

Seeing Jalen Smith’s name get brought up in the other thread has me thinking. If there was any sliver of doubt in their minds that DA would be here long term then why decline Smith’s option? The cost of his option would’ve been the same as Craig’s so it’s not like it saved any money. The declined option and trade are two separate mistakes considering the way things are trending with DA. Strange but maybe it goes over JJ’s head.