Suns @ Raptors 1-17-18

[AzStevenCal]

I am still flabbergasted that posters think the issue is that "they are not playing him inside". No, he himself is not playing himself inside. Himself. He. You have no proof that "they are not playing him inside", or in other words telling him to play far from the rim. Every center in today's NBA sets screens at the top of the key. I would challenge you to find one that doesn't. So that in itself doesn't mean they are forcing him to play far from the rim. I have the proof that Holmes does just fine playing around the hoop. Is he coached separately? I have proof that the players are often referring to his need to get to the hoop. He himself has acknowledged that he needs to get to the basket. He gets down there from time to time. In limited times it has worked well. Most times he is pushed out until he receives the ball 10+ feet from the hoop. Or the passes are intercepted because his technique in pass reception is lacking (not that the passes are always great). His close scores generally come from rebounds and putbacks or alley oops when they work.
I am not even defending Igor directly - it would be any coach. You can't force Ayton to do what obviously doesn't come naturally to him. He will have to learn it, get stronger, and force himself to do it.

Agreed but I'm also flabbergasted that so many are still ignoring the age of this roster. It isn't just an excuse; players almost always improve and then hit their prime around 26 or 27. Chances are Ayton isn't who he will become, neither is Booker or Jackson or Bridges or Melton or Okobo or Oubre. Even Holmes and Warren look to still have some growth ahead of them.

 

[SirStefan32]

I am still flabbergasted that posters think the issue is that "they are not playing him inside". No, he himself is not playing himself inside. Himself. He. You have no proof that "they are not playing him inside", or in other words telling him to play far from the rim. Every center in today's NBA sets screens at the top of the key. I would challenge you to find one that doesn't. So that in itself doesn't mean they are forcing him to play far from the rim. I have the proof that Holmes does just fine playing around the hoop. Is he coached separately? I have proof that the players are often referring to his need to get to the hoop. He himself has acknowledged that he needs to get to the basket. He gets down there from time to time. In limited times it has worked well. Most times he is pushed out until he receives the ball 10+ feet from the hoop. Or the passes are intercepted because his technique in pass reception is lacking (not that the passes are always great). His close scores generally come from rebounds and putbacks or alley oops when they work.
I am not even defending Igor directly - it would be any coach. You can't force Ayton to do what obviously doesn't come naturally to him. He will have to learn it, get stronger, and force himself to do it.

I was on the "give him the ball in the low post" bandwagon until I re-watched a couple of games simply focusing on Ayton. Not really watching the game, just watching Ayton. When they try to post him up, it is a disaster. He doesn't know how to seal his defender, and he doesn't know what to do when there is somebody else around. If he has a smaller defender on him, he is OK because he doesn't really have to seal them properly- they throw the ball high and he catches it. He is also OK if the other defenders are on the other side. If other defenders are close, it usually results in a turnover or in a pass back out that leads to nothing.

I am sure Igor would love to post him up, but he is just not good enough YET for that to be effective. They can do it when the circumstances are right, but that doesn't happen very often.

 

[taz02]

I am still flabbergasted that posters think the issue is that "they are not playing him inside". No, he himself is not playing himself inside. Himself. He. You have no proof that "they are not playing him inside", or in other words telling him to play far from the rim. Every center in today's NBA sets screens at the top of the key. I would challenge you to find one that doesn't. So that in itself doesn't mean they are forcing him to play far from the rim. I have the proof that Holmes does just fine playing around the hoop. Is he coached separately? I have proof that the players are often referring to his need to get to the hoop. He himself has acknowledged that he needs to get to the basket. He gets down there from time to time. In limited times it has worked well. Most times he is pushed out until he receives the ball 10+ feet from the hoop. Or the passes are intercepted because his technique in pass reception is lacking (not that the passes are always great). His close scores generally come from rebounds and putbacks or alley oops when they work.
I am not even defending Igor directly - it would be any coach. You can't force Ayton to do what obviously doesn't come naturally to him. He will have to learn it, get stronger, and force himself to do it.

Maybe you are right and I apologize for leaving you flabbergasted. I don't watch other teams enough to argue about what they do or do not do. It does appear to me that Ayton spends way too much time 20ft from the basket. I don't remember Shaq spending a lot of time at the three point line, maybe he did. I'm not comparing Ayton to Shaq, but simply suggesting an offense that works more from the inside out may be better.

If you are right, and Ayton is not capable, I would propose that our biggest need is a PF that can play inside. I would also suggest, if you are right, the suns made a huge mistake in not drafting Doncic. He is a far superior perimeter player than Ayton.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Agreed but I'm also flabbergasted that so many are still ignoring the age of this roster. It isn't just an excuse; players almost always improve and then hit their prime around 26 or 27. Chances are Ayton isn't who he will become, neither is Booker or Jackson or Bridges or Melton or Okobo or Oubre. Even Holmes and Warren look to still have some growth ahead of them.

On the flip side with more time to grow and the addition of a couple players to help round out the roster they could absolutely become much better very quickly. The key right now is to block out how long the playoff drought is and find a way to be patient for the growth to come.

 

[SirStefan32]

Agreed but I'm also flabbergasted that so many are still ignoring the age of this roster. It isn't just an excuse; players almost always improve and then hit their prime around 26 or 27. Chances are Ayton isn't who he will become, neither is Booker or Jackson or Bridges or Melton or Okobo or Oubre. Even Holmes and Warren look to still have some growth ahead of them.

That's an excellent point. Ayton's game is actually incredibly advanced for his age. He can score in the low post under the right circumstances, his jumper is solid from around the free throw line, he can do that little turnaround jumper from the low post, his hands are incredible, he is a very willing passer, his footwork is outstanding, and I am sure I am forgetting a couple of things. But, he is still a very young rookie, and big men rookies are usually not very good.

Booker is another great example. I think he is so damn good that people forget he is 22 years old. Suns roster is literally a bunch of kids with grandpa Jamal.

I do think it's important to plug the hole at PG and to some degree PF, but even more important in consistency. We've seen what these kids can do. Now we need to see them do it a little more consistently every month.

 

[SirStefan32]

Maybe you are right and I apologize for leaving you flabbergasted. I don't watch other teams enough to argue about what they do or do not do. It does appear to me that Ayton spends way too much time 20ft from the basket. I don't remember Shaq spending a lot of time at the three point line, maybe he did. I'm not comparing Ayton to Shaq, but simply suggesting an offense that works more from the inside out may be better.

If you are right, and Ayton is not capable, I would propose that our biggest need is a PF that can play inside. I would also suggest, if you are right, the suns made a huge mistake in not drafting Doncic. He is a far superior perimeter player than Ayton.

The problem is that Shaq could post up, he could bully the defenders, get the position deep in the post, and just overpower them. Ayton doesn't have that skill set or even strength yet. He is a young kid, and big men take a while to develop. Ayton is seeing new things every game- things he has never seen or experienced before. I remember the first Clippers game where he was just in awe of a player bigger and stronger than him. He had never played against someone who had a couple of inches and 30lb on him.

I don't think the Suns made a mistake. Doncic is better right now, and who knows, he may end up being the better player for the entirety of their careers, but Ayton will be fine. What we are seeing from him now is just the beginning.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

The problem is that Shaq could post up, he could bully the defenders, get the position deep in the post, and just overpower them. Ayton doesn't have that skill set or even strength yet. He is a young kid, and big men take a while to develop. Ayton is seeing new things every game- things he has never seen or experienced before. I remember the first Clippers game where he was just in awe of a player bigger and stronger than him. He had never played against someone who had a couple of inches and 30lb on him.

I don't think the Suns made a mistake. Doncic is better right now, and who knows, he may end up being the better player for the entirety of their careers, but Ayton will be fine. What we are seeing from him now is just the beginning.

Agreed. There is a reason that the GM poll before the season started had Luka as the strong favorite to win ROY and had Ayton 4th on the list. That same poll from those same GMs had Ayton and JJJ tied as their pick to be the best player in 5 years. People need to understand that Luka has been playing against grown men in a more physical league than the NBA (not as quick to call fouls there) for 4 years prior to coming to the NBA. Ayton has a lot of work ahead of him to adjust to the size, strength and speed of NBA players and maybe even more importantly the veteran moves/tricks that most rookies have to adjust to. That last part might actually be the most important aspect for Luka to be so effective so early. He already has a feel for those veteran moves and how to sell contact and Ayton has never needed to learn that until now.

 

[1tinsoldier]

I am still flabbergasted that posters think the issue is that "they are not playing him inside". No, he himself is not playing himself inside. Himself. He. You have no proof that "they are not playing him inside", or in other words telling him to play far from the rim. Every center in today's NBA sets screens at the top of the key. I would challenge you to find one that doesn't. So that in itself doesn't mean they are forcing him to play far from the rim. I have the proof that Holmes does just fine playing around the hoop. Is he coached separately? I have proof that the players are often referring to his need to get to the hoop. He himself has acknowledged that he needs to get to the basket. He gets down there from time to time. In limited times it has worked well. Most times he is pushed out until he receives the ball 10+ feet from the hoop. Or the passes are intercepted because his technique in pass reception is lacking (not that the passes are always great). His close scores generally come from rebounds and putbacks or alley oops when they work.
I am not even defending Igor directly - it would be any coach. You can't force Ayton to do what obviously doesn't come naturally to him. He will have to learn it, get stronger, and force himself to do it.

we've been over this many times
yes, Ayton is the main person responsible for positioning himself for an inside pass and being effective with it
yes, our interior passers suck at it too
yes, other teams have centers set screens at the top of the key -- occasionally. no where near as often as the Suns
yes, it's the coach's responsibility to correct all of the above.
how about setting up a few plays to get Ayton free inside? set a stinking pick for HIM once in a while?
how about telling the passer to throw it high and Ayton to jump for it?
how about telling Ayton to lay the hammer on some drivers occasionally instead of emphasizing not fouling?

yes, you CAN force Ayton to do what doesn't come naturally.
what comes naturally is to sit on the bench and drink gatorade instead of running back and forth sweating and wrestling for position with other big scary dudes. a drill sargent gets paid crap to motivate other men to kill other men they'd more naturally rather have a beer with.

if Ayton's not following instructions, start Holmes. he shoots the highest percentage and has the highest effective rating anyway

 

[SirStefan32]

we've been over this many times
yes, Ayton is the main person responsible for positioning himself for an inside pass and being effective with it
yes, our interior passers suck at it too
yes, other teams have centers set screens at the top of the key -- occasionally. no where near as often as the Suns
yes, it's the coach's responsibility to correct all of the above.
how about setting up a few plays to get Ayton free inside? set a stinking pick for HIM once in a while?
how about telling the passer to throw it high and Ayton to jump for it?
how about telling Ayton to lay the hammer on some drivers occasionally instead of emphasizing not fouling?

yes, you CAN force Ayton to do what doesn't come naturally.
what comes naturally is to sit on the bench and drink gatorade instead of running back and forth sweating and wrestling for position with other big scary dudes. a drill sargent gets paid crap to motivate other men to kill other men they'd more naturally rather have a beer with.

if Ayton's not following instructions, start Holmes. he shoots the highest percentage and has the highest effective rating anyway

That's just silly. Anyone who has ever managed people can tell you that what you are suggesting is a recipe for disaster in any work place, let alone a professional basketball team. You wouldn't treat an entry-level employee like that, let alone a number one pick who is just 20. If you want to lose the players and lose the team, what you suggest would get it done.

 

[1tinsoldier]

That's just silly. Anyone who has ever managed people can tell you that what you are suggesting is a recipe for disaster in any work place, let alone a professional basketball team. You wouldn't treat an entry-level employee like that, let alone a number one pick who is just 20. If you want to lose the players and lose the team, what you suggest would get it done.

what is silly
is saying it's just silly to try starting the center who is the team's best defensive player,
and a good scorer who has the team's best shooting percentage and efficiency rating
and who, apparently, does what the coach asks him to do

instead of the center who, you suggest, doesn't do what the coach is asking
and is one of the worst defenders on the team

yes. he's 20. all the more reason he should follow coach's direction
and earn his permanent start over the 25 year old
or at least give him a taste of the bench so the rookie learns
there's a correlation between effort & execution and the privilege of starting

that's at least what a popovich or any other strong leader would do

i've managed retail stores with large staffs who followed instructions for $5 per hour, let alone $1,000 per minute!

stop trolling me with your bullcrap

 

[1tinsoldier]

well, Igor must have read my post and benched Ayton for lack of effort & execution
let's see now if it's a "recipe for disaster" but i doubt Igor could "lose the players and lose the team" any more than he already has!

 

[1tinsoldier]

and again i'll say Booker Ball is a loser.
32 points and 11 assists, and yet another typical Suns blowout by Charlotte

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

well, Igor must have read my post and benched Ayton for lack of effort & execution
let's see now if it's a "recipe for disaster" but i doubt Igor could "lose the players and lose the team" any more than he already has!

I've seen what it looks like when a coach loses the team and this isn't it. If he had lost his players than they wouldn't be hanging in so many games after a bad start to the game.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

also, a couple of days ago i said Booker Ball is a loser.
32 points and 11 assists, and yet another typical Suns blowout by Charlotte

Doesn't really prove your point considering the team was even for the game when Booker was on the floor in a game that they lost by 20. The game was lost in the 10 minutes that he wasn't on the floor and not when he was in playing "Booker Ball"...

They also played a solid game offensively and thus further illustrating the lack of validity with the point you are trying to make.

 

[1tinsoldier]

I've seen what it looks like when a coach loses the team and this isn't it. If he had lost his players than they wouldn't be hanging in so many games after a bad start to the game.

if he hadn't lost his players there wouldn't be so many bad starts to games because the coach doesn't have good preparation and strategy and/or the players don't respect him enough to follow it

 

[1tinsoldier]

Doesn't really prove your point considering the team was even for the game when Booker was on the floor in a game that they lost by 20. The game was lost in the 10 minutes that he wasn't on the floor and not when he was in playing "Booker Ball"...

Booker Ball is when the ball is dominated by Booker and the other players becomes dependent on him and dysfunctional without him
instead of balanced ball distribution and collective team defense motivating the team and igniting the collective team offense.

 

[1tinsoldier]

I've seen what it looks like when a coach loses the team and this isn't it.

look again

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

look again

Looked again, still looks the same to me...

 

[BC867]

I've seen what it looks like when a coach loses the team and this isn't it. If he had lost his players than they wouldn't be hanging in so many games after a bad start to the game.

Does the description "homer" mean defending within our ASFN "family" everything our team does? This is the place for seeing on a weekly basis what is holding them down.

How can we condone the many, many, many, many mistakes the Suns have made, especially when there is no hope for change?

The only hope I've seen stated is another #1 draft pick. 'Been there, done that. It hasn't lifted us at all.

Seeing no progress is frustrating. And accepting playing catch-up every game, as has been posted, wears a team even further down physically and mentally. Most fans, too.

 

[1tinsoldier]

If he had lost his players than they wouldn't be hanging in so many games after a bad start to the game.

so, if Igor did lose the respect of his players they'd be losing games by 40 instead of 20?
and instead of being 11-36 they'd be like 1-46?

just how low can you keep resetting the bar and still get "likes" from SirS and AzS?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Does the description "homer" mean defending within our ASFN "family" everything our team does? This is the place for seeing on a weekly basis what is holding them down.

How can we condone the many, many, many, many mistakes the Suns have made, especially when there is no hope for change?

The only hope I've seen stated is another #1 draft pick. 'Been there, done that. It hasn't lifted us at all.

Seeing no progress is frustrating. And accepting playing catch-up every game, as has been posted, wears a team even further down physically and mentally. Most fans, too.

Actually the hope for the future is primarily tied to the development of four first year players, a second year player, and continued growth of our going vets (book, oubre and Holmes).

 

[1Sun]

Actually the hope for the future is primarily tied to the development of four first year players, a second year player, and continued growth of our going vets (book, oubre and Holmes).

None of which can happen under a coach who is so passive, soft spoken and lacking in communication skills.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Actually the hope for the future is primarily tied to the development of four first year players, a second year player, and continued growth of our going vets (book, oubre and Holmes).

I think a lot of people are struggling to grasp that a team full of youngsters are going to both be very inconsistent (look great one night and terrible the next) and aren't going to make massive strides during the season when their are massive holes in the roster. The only way this team will make a massive turnaround is if they make trades by the deadline to fill in the holes. Otherwise we will continue to see the team improve little by little and get just a little more consistent as the season progresses.

 

[SirStefan32]

Yep, people don't seem to grasp the concept of the Suns being a bunch of kids with grandpa Jamal. It's OK to be disappointed that we are not seeing more progress, it's Ok to be critical of specific things, it's OK to point out the roster holes, but this expectation of everyone doing what they are supposed to be doing on regular basis is just incredible to me.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I admit I get caught up in the frustration mid-game. But whenever I have an opportunity to step back and reflect I am reminded how young the team is. I’m fine with dissecting individual issues if players or the construct of the team, but it seems silly to harsh on the wild swings and call for the coach’s head.