Suns @ Rockets

[Chaz]

ROY is the best NBA rookie player. High school, minor leagues, colleges, foreign national teams, and playground pickup games have no relevance IMO.

 

[SirStefan32]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Why is it irrelevant? If that's the case, then it shouldn't matter if there is a kid from Junior High in the NBA, right? It's very relevant.

Chap, it is irrelevant because the ROY award is about who is the best rookie right now. Experience, potential, and age are irrelevant in this case. It doesn't matter how experienced you are, or how old you are, or how much potential you have. It is about how good rookies are right now.
When you draft players, you look at their age, potential, talent, experience. When you give the ROY award, you simply look at who is the best basketball player right now.

 

[Chaplin]

Again, why? Taken in context, isn't it more impressive for someone with little or no experience to have a good year than another player with a lot more experience?

It's totally relevant.

And it's not like Yao Ming has double Amare's statistics. I know I'm the ONLY person who still thinks Amare is a better choice, but come on.

Funny, it is extremely arguable who the best rookie in the league is right now. Yao looked good last night, but to base your decision on last night's game is short-sighted at best.

 

[SweetD]

Past ROY(How many of these are High Schoolers vs. developed players?)

1986-87 - Chuck Person, Indiana
1987-88 - Mark Jackson, New York
1988-89 - Mitch Richmond, Golden State
1989-90 - David Robinson, San Antonio
1990-91 - Derrick Coleman, New Jersey
1991-92 - Larry Johnson, Charlotte
1992-93 - Shaquille O'Neal, Orlando
1993-94 - Chris Webber, Golden State
1994-95 - Grant Hill, Detroit (tie), Jason Kidd, Dallas
1995-96 - Damon Stoudamire, Toronto
1996-97 - Allen Iverson, Philadelphia
1997-98 - Tim Duncan, San Antonio
1998-99 - Vince Carter, Toronto
1999-00 - Elton Brand, Chicago (tie), Steve Francis, Houston
2000-01 - Mike Miller, Orlando
2001-02 - Pau Gasol, Memphis

As you can tell it starts to get less and less developed, but for now I am not sure a high schooler(Except for James next year) that has come close to wining a ROY. This is just my opinion.

 

[Chaz]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Again, why? Taken in context, isn't it more impressive for someone with little or no experience to have a good year than another player with a lot more experience?

It's totally relevant.

More impressive yes but the ROY should be based on NBA performance by a first year player.

Should shorter players or those drafted in later rounds or not drafted get special consideration because of their circumstance?

Should those who had better coaching get penalized for ROY?

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by SweetD


As you can tell it starts to get less and less developed, but for now I am not sure a high schooler(Except for James next year) that has come close to wining a ROY. This is just my opinion.

Which is why past ROY winners aren't relevant this year.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by SirChaz
More impressive yes but the ROY should be based on NBA performance by a first year player.

The point is that as much as you guys like to deny it, all first year players are not the same.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by SweetD
Past ROY(How many of these are High Schoolers vs. developed players?)


2001-02 - Pau Gasol, Memphis

Yes, but how much real competition did Gasol have? And let's face it, Yao Ming is no Pau Gasol yet.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by Chaplin
The point is that as much as you guys like to deny it, all first year players are not the same.

What in the world are you talking about? I swear sometimes you don't comprehend what people write before you respond. So far as I can tell nobody who has contributed to this thread has denied that each and every rookie has different levels of natural ability, experience, coaching, etc..

It doesn't matter! That's not what the rookie of the year award is about. The award goes to the first year NBA player who the media thinks played the best basketball and made the biggest impact on their team this season. The award is not supposed to go to the guide the media feels will be the best. It's not supposed to go to the guy who surprised the most people by playing well. It is supposed to go to the best rookie player this season.

Joe Mama

 

[SirStefan32]

Originally posted by Joe Mama

It doesn't matter! That's not what the rookie of the year award is about. The award goes to the first year NBA player who the media thinks played the best basketball and made the biggest impact on their team this season. The award is not supposed to go to the guide the media feels will be the best. It's not supposed to go to the guy who surprised the most people by playing well. It is supposed to go to the best rookie player this season.

Joe Mama

Exactly!

 

[schutd]

Originally posted by Chaplin
The point is that as much as you guys like to deny it, all first year players are not the same.

You stubborn old stodge. No one here said all rookie players are the same. NO ONE did. You'd like to see a sliding scale that takes into account various off the court situations (i.e. previous organized experience, coaching, yadd yadd yadda) and then use those to formulate who is best suited for ROY honors. And people here generally agree that the best way to approach the situations is, that Rookie of the Year is an award given to the best NBA rookie. Pure, simple, plain and easy. ANd the way it should be in my opinion.

When you make a discussion a "me against the world" affair, as you so often do, it becomes exactly that. No one here is jumping on your caes or anything, but the vast majority of us just disagree that ROY should be based on a bunch of extrainious situations that occured previously in a players life. It has solely to do with on court performace in the fisrt year that player is in the NBA. And thats it.

By the way, I think Amare should win it.

 

[Chaplin]

Fine, call me out. I don't care. I made my opinion known, and everybody tore me down. I didn't tear yours up, I defended mine.

And Joe, why don't you look and see what you're writing as well. Again, my point is very simple, yet you seem to not want to grasp it, let alone understand it.

I find it amazing that you guys thing there is such a huge difference between the two candidates. Yao Ming is easily one of the top 2 rookies this year, there is no denying that, no matter how much you guys think that I don't like him. I just think Amare deserves it because of the circumstances of his year--i.e. coming straight out of high school, forced to start very early in the season, very little experience. And usually, very little experience translates to very raw and underdeveloped skills--of which Amare is not.

So why is that not ROY worthy? I'm stubborn, yes, but you're not going to change my mind unless Yao starts averaging 20 points over the next 17 games. But right now, there is definitely a comparison that can be made, and there is no way that Yao Ming is a clear-cut winner over Amare. Again, IN MY OPINION.

And I will irritirate that I have not talked down, I have not called names, I have not singled anyone out. You guys are doing that this time.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by schutd


When you make a discussion a "me against the world" affair, as you so often do, it becomes exactly that. No one here is jumping on your caes or anything, but the vast majority of us just disagree that ROY should be based on a bunch of extrainious situations that occured previously in a players life. It has solely to do with on court performace in the fisrt year that player is in the NBA. And thats it.

Gimme a break. The only reason it looks like a "me against the world" affair is because you're labeling it that way. Nobody agrees with me, but so what? I can defend my opinion and myself to the best of my ability. Period.

 

[Chaz]

I think Amare is very ROY worthy. Part of the problem is of perception. The NBA tends to choose the ROY before anyone has played.
In '94 Grant Hill was the next coming of MJ before he had left Duke. Jason Kidd played so well that year they couldn't deny him, so they made co-roy (a bad joke imo)
Yao is the #1 pick and received much hype before he even played here. That is momentum for his cause.
The fact Amare is even considered with where he came from and where he was drafted says a lot about him as a player and person.

Here is hoping Amare wins, but frankly it was an uphill battle from the beginning. I agree with SweetD, making the playoffs will be a big boost for one of these players.

 

[SweetD]

Chaplin I am not saying your option that Amare should not be ROY is not reasonable, but the NBA and the Media don't vote on who had to endure the most hurdles to be ROY. Other wise people like Richard Dumas and other with serious problems like drugs or dead family members would be winning every award on what they had to endure. I am not saying that Amare is not a viable candidate for ROY IMO is that Yoa was #1 pick and has all the Hype behind him and Amare has given him a run for his money. If you want to compare apples to apples you can not come up with a numerical way to decide who wins the ROY. That is like say Yao should get more points because he can't communicate in English or because he has the pressure of being the number one pick. Your opinion is one thing but you will need to back it up with some form of justification and just saying one guy has gone though more means he gets more votes. I just don't agree. I commend you for standing next to your opinion. I hope Amare wins ROY and Suns get into the playoffs again.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by SweetD
Your opinion is one thing but you will need to back it up with some form of justification and just saying one guy has gone though more means he gets more votes. I just don't agree. I commend you for standing next to your opinion. I hope Amare wins ROY and Suns get into the playoffs again.

That is incorrect--I never said Amare will get more votes because of what he's gone through.

What I said was that he deserves more votes because of who he is versus what Yao Ming is--both as a man and as a basketball player. Whether that will happen or not is still up for debate.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Again, why? Taken in context, isn't it more impressive for someone with little or no experience to have a good year than another player with a lot more experience?

It's totally relevant.

And Joe, why don't you look and see what you're writing as well. Again, my point is very simple, yet you seem to not want to grasp it, let alone understand it.

I said sometimes I don't think you are comprehending other people's posts. You seem to take what someone writes and turn it into something totally different quite often.

How do you figure I haven't grasped what you have written? You are saying that one of the criteria for the ROY award should be overcoming adversity whether that adversity is less coaching, less experience, or lesser previous competition. I disagree. I think the ROY award should go to the player who plays the best and has the largest positive effect on his team. I didn't ever even say that player is Yao Ming although I do think Yao will win.

I do think Amare Stoudemire's play has been even more impressive because he's done what he has done with only a few years of organized basketball against high school competition. I also think it's impressive that he is as good as he is without even having a semi reliable shot from more than five feet away from the basket. It's impressive, but I don't think it should be part of the media's consideration when they vote for ROY.

Originally posted by SirChaz
In '94 Grant Hill was the next coming of MJ before he had left Duke. Jason Kidd played so well that year they couldn't deny him, so they made co-roy (a bad joke imo)

Grant Hill averaged 19.9 points on 47.7% shooting, 6.4 rebounds, and 5 assists per game. Jason Kidd averaged 11.7 points on 38.5% shooting, 5.4 rebounds, and 7.7 assists per game. I know it's not fair to base it only on statistics, but it looks like Kidd could have easily been denied.

Joe Mama

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by Joe Mama

I do think Amare Stoudemire's play has been even more impressive because he's done what he has done with only a few years of organized basketball against high school competition. I also think it's impressive that he is as good as he is without even having a semi reliable shot from more than five feet away from the basket. It's impressive, but I don't think it should be part of the media's consideration when they vote for ROY.

Joe Mama [/B]

Why not? Yao Ming was supposed to be somewhat productive this year, Amare Stoudemire was not. Now, they are both producing similar statistics. Based on those two simple things, why is Yao the favorite over Amare?

 

[SweetD]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Why not? Yao Ming was supposed to be somewhat productive this year, Amare Stoudemire was not. Now, they are both producing similar statistics. Based on those two simple things, why is Yao the favorite over Amare?

His team is in the playoffs. (and he can't speak English)Just kidding

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by SweetD
His team is in the playoffs. (and he can't speak English)Just kidding

Well, I have to agree, that the playoffs may make or break it.

But hey, here's hoping that Utah crashes and burns, and Houston AND Phoenix both make it in!

 

[SirStefan32]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Why not? Yao Ming was supposed to be somewhat productive this year, Amare Stoudemire was not. Now, they are both producing similar statistics. Based on those two simple things, why is Yao the favorite over Amare?

Amare Stoudemire is, in my oppinion, the biggest rookie surprise this year. He is head and shoulders above Kwame Brown, Eddie Curry, and Tyson Chandler, high schooler from the previous draft.
He is right now, among 10 best power forwards in the league. What makes it even more amazing is the fact that he only played a couple of years in HS.

Having said all that, Yao also had to make huge adjustments- different country, different culture, different language. He missed the entire training camp, he was busting his butt playing for the national team all summer. Also, he had to deal with pressure to play well. He was the number one pick.

Having said all that, it's all irrelevant. For 20th time- it does not matter! ROY award is given to the best rookie be he high schooler, college graduate, or a 32 years old player from Europe. It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter, and it doesn't matter!

 

[elindholm]

Thank you, SirStefan. I just tried to say something similar, but my #@*&$*%& internet connection dropped for the 11th time in the last 24 hours, and I lost the whole thing. I said it somewhat differently, but you make the point just as well.

I did make one other point, though, which I'll go ahead and try to make again, not that I expect this post ever to go through. There's still the question of what it means to "deserve" an award. I wouldn't want to see the Rookie of the Year award (or any postseason award) get corrupted by some sort of Affirmative Action attitude, that basically says that voters need to compensate for whatever hardship the various candidates might have endured.

And I don't think the point of the award is to make the recipient feel good: this isn't like the Certificates of Achievement we all got in second grade for not cutting ourselves with the scissors. The point of the award, in my opinion, is and should be to recognize the best rookie.

Is Yao the best rookie? That's an open question. The media tell us that he is, but they have their own agenda. Yao outplayed Stoudemire last night, but that was only one game. I don't think that the general preference for Yao is based only on statistics, because if you look at Caron Butler's statistics, they are similar, and no one is talking about him. I think most people are looking at Houston's improvement in W-L record compared to Phoenix's, and basing it on that. That's not a great measure by which to judge.

If I had a vote, I would take it upon myself to watch as many Rockets and Suns games as possible, to try to assess who really does have the bigger impact. I haven't watched many Rockets games, so I really can't say. Like Stoudemire, Yao has times when he looks dominant and other times when he looks lost. But the real voters can't be bothered with this -- they'll just follow the conventional wisdom, like they always do. So Yao will win easily, whether he's the best rookie or not.

I do think, however, that if he is the best rookie, he should get the award. The heck with who is more "deserving," or who is the more inspiring success story, or even who will be a better player down the road or next season. The Rookie of the Year award isn't like a little gold star that the recipient can affix to the cover of his personal scrapbook so that he can admire it when he's feeling glum. It just means you are the best rookie -- nothing more, nothing less. If you are, you win, and if you aren't, you don't. End of story.

And finally, forget this crap about splitting the award. It's amazing that that has happened twice -- a vastly improbable statistical fluke. In general, though, it's like the double gold medals they awarded in Olympic figure skating. Let's get away from the hand-holding of saying "You're all so good, I think everyone should win," like it's a Miss Teen USA talent show. There is one winner. If Stoudemire doesn't like it, he can just work harder next year.

(Okay, internet connection, do your stuff.)

 

[SirStefan32]

(Points per game)
Amare- 13.4
Yao - 13.9

(minutes per game)
Amare- 31.9
Yao - 29.5

(FG%)
Amare- .461
Yao - .520

(FT%)
Amare- .669
Yao - .805

(Rebounds per game)
Amare- 9.2
Yao - 8.3

(blocks per game)
Amare- .91
Yao - 1.91

(assists)
Amare- .9
Yao - . 1.7

Man, all I can say is that I am glad I don't have to vote for one of these guys.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by SirStefan32

Having said all that, it's all irrelevant. For 20th time- it does not matter! ROY award is given to the best rookie be he high schooler, college graduate, or a 32 years old player from Europe. It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter, and it doesn't matter!

So you're saying it doesn't matter?

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by SirStefan32


(Rebounds per game)
Amare- 8.3
Yao - 9.2

Last night, the telecast said it was the opposite.