Suns Sign Anthony Tolliver

[JCSunsfan]

Even when we were at our best last season this frontline was manhandled at times. We just don't have the bulk to play with Cousins or Zebo. We're going to have to double the low post and hopefully our guards can put enough pressure on the ball handlers to make the entry pass difficult. Bledsoe's defense last season frequently ran the clock down so they only had one chance per possession to take advantage of us on the blocks. We'll need that again.

I guess this is probably the team we're likely to take into November. But if I'm McDonough I'm on the phones trying to package Goodwin and a pick or two for a good center. Throw in Ennis if necessary. Both have a chance to be stars but we are too soft inside right now.

Steve

Yup. I am cooling on Goodwin. I just haven't seen the improvement that I would like to see. In fact, he seems to have regressed.

 

[FutureSuperstar]

I think that is why some people are wondering what the Suns are doing. I think they be doing exactly that. Putting out feelers to package guys to shore up the interior. At least I hope so.

Honestly, why can't Len be that guy to stop guys like Z-Bo and Cousins? I don't get it - the guy's 7-1, 260 lbs. and it seems so many fans here don't have any confidence in his low-post defense. I don't remember Len getting man-handled at all last year in the post - I thought he held his own and now that he's bigger, he will be even better.

Personally, I think people have a lot of memory bias when evaluating Len's game last year and just remember what they want to. For example, I've seen numerous people here say that Len couldn't guard Blatche last year ... But I remember that game - Blatche scored off Len once off a finesse move (did not overpower him), the next time down Len knocked the ball out of his hand, and I think either 1-2 times after that Len forced a miss ... Somehow holding Blatche to 1-3 shooting leads to people concluding Len couldn't guard him ...

I don't remember Len ever getting man-handled in the post last year, at least from January-on (he may have looked overmatched in the pre-season when he was recovering from his injury). He had good defensive possessions against guys like Z-Bo (had a block against him), Jefferson (had a block against him), Bosh (blocked him at the rim), and even Valanciunus / Hibbert later in the year. That's what I remember - maybe I have memory bias, but I really don't think I do. I think it's OK to criticize Len's positioning or foul trouble defensively last year, but his post defense I thought was great.

Len is that guy to throw at the best centers in the game. He was great defensively last year when matched up 1 on 1 and after an offseason of getting bigger, healthier, and getting more experience, I don't see how he isn't that guy this season to throw at the big guys when they are on a roll.

 

[BC867]

Whether Tolliver pans out at the "4", I just hope that doesn't mean, that at 6'8", he will actually be our defacto backup-&-finishing Center as Frye and Kieff were last season. The same goes for Marcus at PF.

Keep Markieff and Tolliver at PF and Marcus at SF, and replacing Frye with Tolliver, will have moved us a little bit to being competitive later in the season.

Baby steps! I guess that is all we can expect.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Honestly, why can't Len be that guy to stop guys like Z-Bo and Cousins? I don't get it - the guy's 7-1, 260 lbs. and it seems so many fans here don't have any confidence in his low-post defense. I don't remember Len getting man-handled at all last year in the post - I thought he held his own and now that he's bigger, he will be even better.

Personally, I think people have a lot of memory bias when evaluating Len's game last year and just remember what they want to. For example, I've seen numerous people here say that Len couldn't guard Blatche last year ... But I remember that game - Blatche scored off Len once off a finesse move (did not overpower him), the next time down Len knocked the ball out of his hand, and I think either 1-2 times after that Len forced a miss ... Somehow holding Blatche to 1-3 shooting leads to people concluding Len couldn't guard him ...

I don't remember Len ever getting man-handled in the post last year, at least from January-on (he may have looked overmatched in the pre-season when he was recovering from his injury). He had good defensive possessions against guys like Z-Bo (had a block against him), Jefferson (had a block against him), Bosh (blocked him at the rim), and even Valanciunus / Hibbert later in the year. That's what I remember - maybe I have memory bias, but I really don't think I do. I think it's OK to criticize Len's positioning or foul trouble defensively last year, but his post defense I thought was great.

Len is that guy to throw at the best centers in the game. He was great defensively last year when matched up 1 on 1 and after an offseason of getting bigger, healthier, and getting more experience, I don't see how he isn't that guy this season to throw at the big guys when they are on a roll.

He came to the game late. Injuries have cost him both playing time and they've slowed his physical development. And big men typically take longer to develop. He just doesn't look ready to me. Could he be one of the rare few that hits his stride right away? Maybe. But he still seems a bit confused out there. I'm not advocating we give up on him and I'm not calling him a bust. I'm just not sure he's all that close to being ready. I trust Jeff's judgement on this far more than I'd trust my own so I'm willing to jump on the Len bandwagon if Hornacek does but until then, I'm doubtful.

Steve

 

[PhxGametime]

Even when we were at our best last season this frontline was manhandled at times. We just don't have the bulk to play with Cousins or Zebo. We're going to have to double the low post and hopefully our guards can put enough pressure on the ball handlers to make the entry pass difficult. Bledsoe's defense last season frequently ran the clock down so they only had one chance per possession to take advantage of us on the blocks. We'll need that again.

I guess this is probably the team we're likely to take into November. But if I'm McDonough I'm on the phones trying to package Goodwin and a pick or two for a good center. Throw in Ennis if necessary. Both have a chance to be stars but we are too soft inside right now.

Steve

Would Enes Kanter be a good Trade possibility?? I'm not sure how he is defensively but he could possibly be available.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Would Enes Kanter be a good Trade possibility?? I'm not sure how he is defensively but he could possibly be available.

I suspect if Utah is willing to trade him it's because they are more concerned about his knees than they've let on. He's still very young and raw but played well in spots last year (from what I saw).

I know we're not in a crunch here but I just feel like we need to steal the next great center somehow. That's probably a little harder to do than I'm making it out to be. Heck, at his point I'd consider giving Hassan Whiteside a try. If he ever ends up working with someone that he really trusts and listens to he could still be a superstar before all is said and done. So much talent, so little sense.

Steve

 

[Errntknght]

I think FutureSS is onto something with Len. His awareness is not good, IMO, but if he has the well specified task of defending an opposing big who's dominating inside that doesn't require much general awareness. Cory Blount was rather like that, too... he couldn't deal with a pick and roll, for instance or 'help' D, but he could do a great job of focusing on one opponent. (Skiles never grasped that and continued to put him into other roles, which he didn't do well with.)

Hopefully his awareness improves - and I was serious when I suggested his peripheral vision needed improvement - but it would great for him to have assignments he could succeed at now. I'd go so far as to say it would be smart of Hornacek to give him rather specific defensive goals even in cases where he'd rather have him be a general rim protector... i.e. give him a job that he can commit his focus to and do well.

That might explain why Len played his best when going against one of his contemporaries last year - I don't think he was given a specific task but he took it on himself to outplay the guy, and kept his focus on him.

 

[PhxGametime]

I like the Tolliver pickup because he'll have size at the 4 (though not tall), will fill Frye role (spacing), will allow Markieff to start, and is much cheaper than Frye.

As much as I enjoyed Frye on Team, being a U of A fan, keeping him as 2nd highest contract wouldn't of been ideal. Markieff (Marcus as well) will have shot to earn his next contract. Markieff having more PF traits than Frye hopefully helps quite a bit.

Plumlee and Len are two of my favorite Centers the Suns have had (Gortat being favorite) but I also feel Center is position to watch for (via Trade). Suns have tons of Guards, players that need minutes at wings (Tucker, Green, Warren, Marcus, Goodwin), and w/ Markieff being upgrade from last year at PF - I'd assume Star Center is next area to upgrade.

 

[PhxGametime]

Though I don't necessarily mean right away. With Tucker/Green as solid wings, Warren has upside that won't be rushed. Dragic/Bledsoe/Thomas as super guards, Goodwin/Ennis can be brought along slow.

So it's either C or PF. With Suns in love with stretch fours, only the Kevin Love's of NBA would upgrade at that spot - though if it were to happen (upgrade C), I wouldn't completely forget current group.

Possibly set for now. Bring on College Basketball.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Honestly, why can't Len be that guy to stop guys like Z-Bo and Cousins? I don't get it - the guy's 7-1, 260 lbs. and it seems so many fans here don't have any confidence in his low-post defense. I don't remember Len getting man-handled at all last year in the post - I thought he held his own and now that he's bigger, he will be even better.

Personally, I think people have a lot of memory bias when evaluating Len's game last year and just remember what they want to. For example, I've seen numerous people here say that Len couldn't guard Blatche last year ... But I remember that game - Blatche scored off Len once off a finesse move (did not overpower him), the next time down Len knocked the ball out of his hand, and I think either 1-2 times after that Len forced a miss ... Somehow holding Blatche to 1-3 shooting leads to people concluding Len couldn't guard him ...

I don't remember Len ever getting man-handled in the post last year, at least from January-on (he may have looked overmatched in the pre-season when he was recovering from his injury). He had good defensive possessions against guys like Z-Bo (had a block against him), Jefferson (had a block against him), Bosh (blocked him at the rim), and even Valanciunus / Hibbert later in the year. That's what I remember - maybe I have memory bias, but I really don't think I do. I think it's OK to criticize Len's positioning or foul trouble defensively last year, but his post defense I thought was great.

Len is that guy to throw at the best centers in the game. He was great defensively last year when matched up 1 on 1 and after an offseason of getting bigger, healthier, and getting more experience, I don't see how he isn't that guy this season to throw at the big guys when they are on a roll.

I already responded to this post once but I think I need to re-visit it. I hate it when someone reads a sentence or two of my post and then just guesses what I've said instead of actually reading it all. That's what I did to you and I'm sorry about that. My earlier response isn't at all relevant to the point you were making.

I don't know if I agree with you completely but I do remember specific moments where Len bodied up and held his own against a big that had been able to overpower the rest of our guys. And I can't recall him actually being dominated physically by anyone. I'll re-watch a few games during the dead part of the summer and see if I can come away feeling a little better about Alex as a defensive presence.

Steve

 

[Cheesebeef]

would have rather had Ed Davis at 2 years 2 million dollars then Morrow. Just not crazy about what I perceive to believe is a type of player we're seemingly going for. I guess the word finesse is the PC word, but soft is what I'm seeing. Maybe even soft isn't the right word...but in the draft and FA we've consistently put offense in front of defensive players. I just worry about the softness factor with this team and possibly the FO's mindset moving forward.

 

[FutureSuperstar]

I think FutureSS is onto something with Len. His awareness is not good, IMO, but if he has the well specified task of defending an opposing big who's dominating inside that doesn't require much general awareness. Cory Blount was rather like that, too... he couldn't deal with a pick and roll, for instance or 'help' D, but he could do a great job of focusing on one opponent. (Skiles never grasped that and continued to put him into other roles, which he didn't do well with.)

Hopefully his awareness improves - and I was serious when I suggested his peripheral vision needed improvement - but it would great for him to have assignments he could succeed at now. I'd go so far as to say it would be smart of Hornacek to give him rather specific defensive goals even in cases where he'd rather have him be a general rim protector... i.e. give him a job that he can commit his focus to and do well.

That might explain why Len played his best when going against one of his contemporaries last year - I don't think he was given a specific task but he took it on himself to outplay the guy, and kept his focus on him.

I agree Len's awareness was poor last year, but I don't think it was much different than any other 20 year old big man's "awareness" when he starts his NBA career. I don't think a rookie big man ever comes in and looks "aware" defensively, at least until mid-way through his rookie season. I think there's always an "adjusting to the game" phase for young guys. Because Len started in January, he was in this phase for the whole season basically. He said after the season that the game was too fast for him. I think he'll adjust to the speed of the game this season, if not already during the scrimmages the last few weeks. So, I don't think it's that much of a problem going forward.

I really boils down to this - young big men can improve A LOT in 1 year ... Heck, Len improved A LOT from his freshman > sophomore year of college, so he's shown he has the mindset to improve. I expect him to improve a lot this offseason and be ready to be a good 20 - 30 minute player this season. I think a lot of Len's "problems" last year (not catching the ball, uncomfortable offensively, getting worn out easily vs. physical play, foul trouble, etc.) will vanish this upcoming season. Maybe I'm too optimistic, we'll see ...

 

[sunsfan88]

I'd rather have Ed Davis at $2M.

Hell I thought we should have offered Davis a long term $5M/yr deal.

 

[sunsfan88]

would have rather had Ed Davis at 2 years 2 million dollars then Morrow. Just not crazy about what I perceive to believe is a type of player we're seemingly going for. I guess the word finesse is the PC word, but soft is what I'm seeing. Maybe even soft isn't the right word...but in the draft and FA we've consistently put offense in front of defensive players. I just worry about the softness factor with this team and possibly the FO's mindset moving forward.

You are in luck....we didn't sign Morrow

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'd rather have Ed Davis at $2M.

Hell I thought we should have offered Davis a long term $5M/yr deal.

From perusing a Memphis board it appears he can't score down low, he can't defend the post, he's not a very good rebounder and he has an inconsistent motor. Grizzlies fans frequently compare him to Stromile Swift. Nothing about him says 5 million a year except he outplayed our guys when we faced them. Unfortunately, if we signed him he wouldn't get any time against our big guys.

Steve

 

[sunsfan88]

From perusing a Memphis board it appears he can't score down low, he can't defend the post, he's not a very good rebounder and he has an inconsistent motor. Grizzlies fans frequently compare him to Stromile Swift. Nothing about him says 5 million a year except he outplayed our guys when we faced them. Unfortunately, if we signed him he wouldn't get any time against our big guys.

Steve

He showed promise in Toronto. I never watched him in Memphis. The Grizzlies are a pretty awful team at developing big men. Marc Gasol is the only one that survived there while Thabeet, Johnson, Arthur, Davis etc all failed there. Z-Bl was good before going there.

 

[Errntknght]

I've been flogging Ed Davis at every op but him agreeing to 2M/2yr means he doesn't think much of himself so its probably good that we didn't get him. The worst thing about it is that it appears slin was right about him... sheesh I hate that! Its hard for me to believe that he could pull down 10 boards every 36 minutes for 6000 career minutes and have one of the best FG% against marks and still be comparable to Stromile Swift... it don't compute. But if he doesn't believe he's worth more than the Lakers gave him its hard to argue. Maybe his motor died completely and he really doesn't want to play anymore. The stinking Lakers are so often lucky... if he suddenly picks up his game I'm going to royally ticked we didn't gamble on him.

 

[Phrazbit]

I've been flogging Ed Davis at every op but him agreeing to 2M/2yr means he doesn't think much of himself so its probably good that we didn't get him. The worst thing about it is that it appears slin was right about him... sheesh I hate that! Its hard for me to believe that he could pull down 10 boards every 36 minutes for 6000 career minutes and have one of the best FG% against marks and still be comparable to Stromile Swift... it don't compute. But if he doesn't believe he's worth more than the Lakers gave him its hard to argue. Maybe his motor died completely and he really doesn't want to play anymore. The stinking Lakers are so often lucky... if he suddenly picks up his game I'm going to royally ticked we didn't gamble on him.

Sometimes there is more to it. If he still wants to prove himself LA is probably the way to go, its less money than we offered Tolliver but with their current roster he will probably see the court more than he would here.

 

[KloD]

would have rather had Ed Davis at 2 years 2 million dollars then Morrow. Just not crazy about what I perceive to believe is a type of player we're seemingly going for. I guess the word finesse is the PC word, but soft is what I'm seeing. Maybe even soft isn't the right word...but in the draft and FA we've consistently put offense in front of defensive players. I just worry about the softness factor with this team and possibly the FO's mindset moving forward.

Well, with the rule changes it's certainly moving in the Suns favor. One day their will likely be fouls for looking at a guy the wrong way. The hurt feelings foul.

 

[KloD]

Sometimes there is more to it. If he still wants to prove himself LA is probably the way to go, its less money than we offered Tolliver but with their current roster he will probably see the court more than he would here.

Exactly. Just because we don't sign someone doesn't mean we didn't try. Like you said, he probably saw a better opportunity for minutes in L.A. With all the talk of our front court being historically bad this coming season, I wonder if those that believe that have looked at what they Lakers are putting out there. Just awful!

 

[jagu]

Has Tolliver woken up from the coma that Amare put him in?

 

[AzStevenCal]

Well, with the rule changes it's certainly moving in the Suns favor. One day their will likely be fouls for looking at a guy the wrong way. The hurt feelings foul.

The NBA needs to put some balance into their rules now. Calling the hand checking and perimeter fouls is helping the flow of the game but now they are also letting the offensive player push-off to gain an advantage. That doesn't help the flow and if they don't make it a point of emphasis the defense will find other ways to stop it that will probably slow the game back down.

Steve

 

[sunsfan88]

Has Tolliver woken up from the coma that Amare put him in?

 

[devilalum]

Has Tolliver woken up from the coma that Amare put him in?

That would be a lot funnier if Amare didn't currently have a 6" vertical.

 

[mojorizen7]

That would be a lot funnier if Amare didn't currently have a 6" vertical.