Suns sign Stro Swift

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Figures don't lie, but liars figure
-Mark Twain

 

[Mainstreet]

Figures don't lie, but liars figure
-Mark Twain

So if one figures, he must be a liar. Actually mathematics can be made to advance most any argument right or wrong.

 

[Cheesewater]

So if one figures, he must be a liar. Actually mathematics can be made to advance most any argument right or wrong.

I don't think Clemens said anything there about figurers being liars.

 

[Mainstreet]

I don't think Clemens said anything there about figurers being liars.

But if liars figure, they must be figurers.

 

[Cheesewater]

But if liars figure, they must be figurers.

Ah but he didn't say all figurers are liars.

I think the last bit, "liars figure" is not that "people who tell fibs also do math." I think it's that "you can always count on there being some liars somewhere."

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Wow mainstreet, you just took my quote about stats and applied it to grammatical semantics.

And now we see that twisting words is worse than twisting numbers.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Here's something for you to feast on.

What happens next?

You must be registered for see images

 

[Mainstreet]

Ah but he didn't say all figurers are liars.

I think the last bit, "liars figure" is not that "people who tell fibs also do math." I think it's that "you can always count on there being some liars somewhere."

Neither did I use the word "all."

And how did that picture of Pinochio get here?

 

[nowagimp]

So if one figures, he must be a liar. Actually the abuse of mathematics can be made to advance most any argument right or wrong.

Fixed it for you. Business statistics are pretty weak, watered down. I have graduate level multivariate(multiple dependent variables) statistics expertise that I have used on the job for 10 years. When multiple effects are contributing to the overall performance, it can be very tough to get meaning out sometimes. The correct use of statistics require the use of many assumptions, and they are mostly abused when the assumptions fail(some simple examples are: inadequate sample size, lack of common opponents). Sports stats are pretty abused, and sometimes difficult or impossible to use with statistical rigor. This is why I dont take them too seriously(the ones I quote or the ones quoted by others), they are interesting to talk about and discuss though.

In the magic game, barnes was like +10, but all the rest of his stats were not so good except 5 boards(1-6, 5 boards, 2 asst, 3 To's), and yet he had the best +/- of any suns player. Clearly the statistics are muddled, some of them misleading in predicting his contributions to the game.

 

[Bufalay]

So if one figures, he must be a liar. Actually mathematics can be made to advance most any argument right or wrong.

This isn't just a "twist" of words, it is poor reading comprehension and an offensively inaccurate characterization of mathematics.

 

[Cheesewater]

So if one figures, he must be a liar. Actually mathematics can be made to advance most any argument right or wrong.

Neither did I use the word "all."

Saying "if one figures, he must be a liar" implies that all figurers are liars.

 

[nowagimp]

This isn't just a "twist" of words, it is poor reading comprehension and an offensively inaccurate characterization of mathematics.

Dont blame the math just the confidence of the abuser of the math.

 

[Mainstreet]

Fixed it for you.

Thanks. It more clearly conveys the thought I intended.

In the magic game, barnes was like +10, but all the rest of his stats were not so good except 5 boards(1-6, 5 boards, 2 asst, 3 To's), and yet he had the best +/- of any suns player. Clearly the statistics are muddled, some of them misleading in predicting his contributions to the game.

The +/- efficiency rating drives me crazy although I have read it and tried to understand it. I have come to the conclusion I will rely on my own perception if a player adds to the game more than he takes away.

 

[Mainstreet]

Saying "if one figures, he must be a liar" implies that all figurers are liars.

Whatever. Blame it on Mark Twain.

By the way, did you know that all athletes breathe oxygen?

 

[Covert Rain]

The +/- efficiency rating drives me crazy although I have read it and tried to understand it. I have come to the conclusion I will rely on my own perception if a player adds to the game more than he takes away.

That's why "what you see" has to be a big part of the equation. You can't rely on stats alone. On the other side of the coin you can't rely always on what you see either. People sometimes become jaded by what they see and do things like calling Stat a top 5 NBA player in the league by only looking at one part of his game.

It's just some people on this board will just flat ignore any evidence stats or otherwise if it doesn't support their point. Then all of the sudden facts are "misinterpreted" by thos posters who don't agree or as evidence in this thread twist facts or flat out ignore them no matter what the source.

You really need both.

 

[Mainstreet]

This isn't just a "twist" of words, it is poor reading comprehension and an offensively inaccurate characterization of mathematics.

Actually mathematics can be used to prove an argument both right or wrong. It's the misuse of mathematics that causes the problem. Look at the politicians. They use only the mathematical facts they support.

 

[lou_skywalker]

Whatever. Blame it on Mark Twain.

By the way, did you know that all athletes breathe oxygen?

really? I thought they breathe CO2

 

[Mainstreet]

really? I thought they breathe CO2

That doesn't mean they don't breathe oxygen.

 

[nowagimp]

Thanks. It more clearly conveys the thought I intended.



The +/- efficiency rating drives me crazy although I have read it and tried to understand it. I have come to the conclusion I will rely on my own perception if a player adds to the game more than he takes away.

The +/- is obviously multivariate, and might indicate a defensive contribution that doesnt have a stat to reprsent it. Twain was an idiot about stats, but a great writer, certainly no mathematician. His reference probaly had to do with politicians who are born liars. What I saw with barnes is that he matched up better with rashard lewis that did JRich who was abused repeatedly. I do think that barnes was contributing best to the suns weakness, defense at the PF, but what you see is so subjectived, it leads to endless arguments. Here on ASFN, people have alot of faith in stats. IMO they are nice to talk about, but not conclusive by any stretch, and what you see is biased(stats term), and possibly unreliable. When people argue stats or what they see, its telling to watch how easily they sweep aside the contradictions to their opinion, how fixed they are in their views. This is where the ego problem: "I cant be wrong here and I must convince others to my persuasion." I am not interested in convincing anyone (its mostly a waste of time), just stating my opinion and discussing with people that can keep their pantys untwisted in a discussion. I can change my opinion or reconsider it, and dont care about my "credibility" here, I have plenty of that at what I do for a living and am not a fool enough to think I am the be all end all basketball analyst.

 

[elindholm]

See him actually playing on the court is like being naked, you see everything although it may conflict with your imagination.

LOL, brilliant!

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Losing brain cells rapidly here folks. Let's get back on track.

 

[Mainstreet]

really? I thought they breathe CO2

Actually I should add air is made up of 16% Oxygen, 1% Hydrogen, and 78% Nitrogen. Yes, there may be some CO2 in the air you breathe but it is minute.

 

[Cheesewater]

Actually I should add air is made up of 16% Oxygen, 1% Hydrogen, and 78% Nitrogen. Yes, there may be some CO2 in the air you breathe but it is minute.

Is that per 48 minutes? Because those don't match the stats I get from NBA.com

 

[Black Jesus]

what has happened to the Suns forum? There is this ridiculous thread and the 11 page why did we trade for J-Rich thread... keep it fresh folks.

 

[Mainstreet]

Is that per 48 minutes? Because those don't match the stats I get from NBA.com

Gosh no. I must have gotten those stats elsewhere.