suns/spurs difference

[taz02]

I took a minute and compared the rebounding and ppg statistics between the suns/spurs and their opponents.

It's interesting to say the least.

San Antonio has a +0.9 rebounding advantage and is +9 in points per game.

The Suns have a +5.8 point per game advantage and a dismal -4.7 disadvantage in rebounding.

San Antonios opponent averages are +2.7ppg and +5.6rpg more than the suns. This in my oppinion is a nearly impossible statistic to over come in a 7 game series.

Something needs to change. It's not the suns players it's the system. San Antonio's highest rebounder to date is TD at 8.9rpg almost identical to STAT at 8.5 and Marion sits at about 11.

Maybe someone with more time could compare previous seasons?

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I took a minute and compared the rebounding and ppg statistics between the suns/spurs and their opponents.

It's interesting to say the least.

San Antonio has a +0.9 rebounding advantage and is +9 in points per game.

The Suns have a +5.8 point per game advantage and a dismal -4.7 disadvantage in rebounding.

San Antonios opponent averages are +2.7ppg and +5.6rpg more than the suns. This in my oppinion is a nearly impossible statistic to over come in a 7 game series.

Something needs to change. It's not the suns players it's the system. San Antonio's highest rebounder to date is TD at 8.9rpg almost identical to STAT at 8.5 and Marion sits at about 11.

Maybe someone with more time could compare previous seasons?

Compare offensive rebounds. I bet that stat will stand out.

 

[nowagimp]

Compare offensive rebounds. I bet that stat will stand out.

You dont box out, you dont stop the offensive rebounds. The suns dont box out as well as many college teams, pathetic.

 

[mojorizen7]

The numbers don't lie in this case however. San Antonio uses defense and controlling the glass to stay in games.They can score up-tempo or slow it down and get an open shot whenever they need one.
The SUNS use the 3-ball in transition and screen out's for jumpshots in the half-court. When our shots don't fall & we can't control the glass or "D-up" to limit the opponents attempts....we lose. Period.
The system is flawed.
--------------------------------------
But we can run, pass, and shoot.
Great.

 

[dodie53]

the spurs have the refs on their side

 

[Lorenzo]

the spurs have the refs on their side

If the suns don't become a better overall team......they will continue to lose to S.A. the spurs are just as good as the suns are offensively if not better. then of corse they rebound well and play defense more consistently than any other team. then throw in the refs and you have no chance. if that's the route you are stuck on. I just look at the last several years. the numbers aren't in the suns favors when they've played the spurs......reg season or playoffs. it's a bad matchup for them........especially nash going back to his mavs days. the mavs rarely could beat the spurs then......despite consistently beating every other nba team. the spurs are pretty good.

 

[cly2tw]

They assemble and use a team that can win or keep it close even without Duncan's 30 min. We can't win without Nash playing 37 min.

 

[nowagimp]

If the suns don't become a better overall team......they will continue to lose to S.A. the spurs are just as good as the suns are offensively if not better. then of corse they rebound well and play defense more consistently than any other team. then throw in the refs and you have no chance. if that's the route you are stuck on. I just look at the last several years. the numbers aren't in the suns favors when they've played the spurs......reg season or playoffs. it's a bad matchup for them........especially nash going back to his mavs days. the mavs rarely could beat the spurs then......despite consistently beating every other nba team. the spurs are pretty good.

the suns average 11 fewer foul shots than the spurs in head to head meetings (last year). More defense doesnt solve that problem, the suns play less defense and give up more foul shots, go figure. The suns need a liscense to mug on defense, and only mister stern(the enemy of the fans) can instruct the refs to allow that. Amare cant even get a shooting foul on Oberto in some games.

 

[nowagimp]

it's a bad matchup for them........especially nash going back to his mavs days. the mavs rarely could beat the spurs then......despite consistently beating every other nba team. the spurs are pretty good.

Thats a terrible analogy, just remove Josh Howard( who didnt even get major minutes when Nash was there) and the Mavs couldnt beat the spurs at all, now or the last few years.

 

[DeAnna]

You dont box out, you dont stop the offensive rebounds. The suns dont box out as well as many college teams, pathetic.

I thought it was already established that the reason for that is their offensive spacing - not conducive to offensive rebounding?

 

[nowagimp]

I thought it was already established that the reason for that is their offensive spacing - not conducive to offensive rebounding?

Deanna,

I am talking about the suns on defense, not offense. Allowing offensive rebounds kills the suns, its their history.

Watch what players do when the shot goes up on D to tell whether they are good fundamental rebounders. Try this if you havent already. There are 3 choices for defensive players when the shot goes up:

1) run out on the break
2) keep your eye on the ball, move towards the rim to grab it
3) look for the closest opposing player and put your body on him, prevent HIM from getting to the rim.

#3 is the correct answer for the big guys: Diaw, Matrix, Amare, Skinner. Now, Matrix might run out on the break if the ball is shot by his man as the rebound is unlikely to come back his way(and it makes the shooter pay as he will not be able to get back on D and catch shawn before he can finish). This is a bit of a gamble by shawn, but is works more often than not. Watch shawn when its NOT his man shooting the ball, he does #2, not #3.


The problem with the suns is their big guys, including skinner, do #2, which lets bigger players(the oppositions bigs) just move in and take the ball over the top, or get away with a push in the back foul and and an easy lay in. #3 is what KT did EVERY TIME, and what the suns bigs should do, just block out YOUR man or anyone near you who is a rebounder. In this way when the ball comes off the suns will be much more likely to get it. When your bigs do #2 and yuour guards run out on the break, you are toast, you will get killed by offensive rebounds (when you are the smaller team ,like the suns, especially).

 

[scXfreakX]

Its not that the Suns can't rebound or box out, but they really don't try that hard to. Part of the style is running up the court, then very quickly getting back on defense. If they were to try to get offensive and defensive rebounds much more frequently, and the effort for those was there, then I think the outcomes would be different.

Obviously, what is killing us is the rebounding. But the sad part is the effort for thos rebounds.

 

[Lorenzo]

Thats a terrible analogy, just remove Josh Howard( who didnt even get major minutes when Nash was there) and the Mavs couldnt beat the spurs at all, now or the last few years.

let me further clarify my analogy. since you are so sure that the refs are the key to the spurs success.
Nash has led the league's top offensive teams(regardless of who his teammates were/are) for about 5-7 years now going back to his mavs days. every time the spurs have played one of those teams in the playoffs they have out-gunned that team on offense, out rebounded that team, and beat them down on the defensive end. It's not that nash is a bad player.......it doesn't matter who his teammates are/were. It's a credit to the spurs that they have outplayed the league's top offensive team come playoff time.
BUT......blame the refs year after year if you want. this has nothing to do with josh howard. It has to do with the spurs being the best overall team in the NBA..........to include being the best overall offensive team........despite the regular season numbers saying otherwise.

 

[elindholm]

The problem with the suns is their big guys do #2

I think that pretty well sums up the rebounding situation.

 

[nowagimp]

let me further clarify my analogy. since you are so sure that the refs are the key to the spurs success.
Nash has led the league's top offensive teams(regardless of who his teammates were/are) for about 5-7 years now going back to his mavs days. every time the spurs have played one of those teams in the playoffs they have out-gunned that team on offense, out rebounded that team, and beat them down on the defensive end. It's not that nash is a bad player.......it doesn't matter who his teammates are/were. It's a credit to the spurs that they have outplayed the league's top offensive team come playoff time.
BUT......blame the refs year after year if you want. this has nothing to do with josh howard. It has to do with the spurs being the best overall team in the NBA..........to include being the best overall offensive team........despite the regular season numbers saying otherwise.

Only a mavs fan would so quickly dismiss the fraudulent suspensions and the Donaghy factor. But you can make any arguement you want if you ignore those. The failure of the NBA's officiating is clear, the majority of fans have seen lebron win a game shooting from out of bounds, watch the lakers tie it up after stealing the ball while standing out of bounds, watch the spurs hack their way past the suns, watch AI get one foul shot against the spurs in a playoff game, thats a joke. Fans have watched even the heat get handed championship series games. Watch shaq commit flagrant fouls(2) on his home floor this year, and not even a foul call. The san antonio newspapers even calculated a +11 foul shot advantage for the spurs over ALL teams they played in the playoffs, yet they are not even the top foul shooting team(shots/game), go figure. Only the spurs can argue every call without a technical, get refs thrown out of the league, it goes on and on. You obviously trust the lawyer that runs the NBA, not me, that lawyer doesnt know crap about basketball, and if he's honest, I'm an elephant.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Only a mavs fan would so quickly dismiss the fraudulent suspensions and the Donaghy factor. But you can make any arguement you want if you ignore those. The failure of the NBA's officiating is clear, the majority of fans have seen lebron win a game shooting from out of bounds, watch the lakers tie it up after stealing the ball while standing out of bounds, watch the spurs hack their way past the suns, watch AI get one foul shot against the spurs in a playoff game, thats a joke. Fans have watched even the heat get handed championship series games. Watch shaw commit flagrant fouls(2) on his home floor this year, and not even a foul call. The san antonio newspapers even calculated a +11 foul shot advantage for the spurs over ALL teams they played in the playoffs, yet they are not even the top foul shooting team(shots/game), go figure. Only the spurs can argue every call without a technical, get refs thrown out of the league, it goes on and on. You obviously trust the lawyer that runs the NBA, not me, that lawyer doesnt know crap about basketball, and if he's honest, I'm an elephant.

 

[Maligzar]

The one thing that the "refs hate Phoenix Stern wants SA to win all the championships omgz" crowd can never seem to do, is explain why. They can never give a motive as to why the "Heat were handed a championship" or that "the refs love SA".

Reasonable logical people recognize the fact that refs are human and that's a human element of the game. There is no grand conspiracy

 

[nowagimp]

The one thing that the "refs hate Phoenix Stern wants SA to win all the championships omgz" crowd can never seem to do, is explain why. They can never give a motive as to why the "Heat were handed a championship" or that "the refs love SA".

Reasonable logical people recognize the fact that refs are human and that's a human element of the game. There is no grand conspiracy

Freud himself couldnt predict or figure out human motivations most of the time. People who think it must be explained or motivated in order to prove it dont understand the complexity of human behavior. Explain wall street and get rich, its that simple, go ahead. I didnt think so. Only a fool thinks that conspiracies dont exist among the wealthy movers and shakers in the USA. Well the NBA is a billion dollar+ enterprise and is just as corrupt as any other huge business endeavor. Yet some fools think its a sport, ignorance is bliss.

 

[Lorenzo]

nowagimp.......there's nothing I can do to change your opinion about the officiating being the major difference between a team that has 4 titles in the last decade and a team that has 0......ever. I think those numbers speak for themselves, but that's just me. Maybe it has something to do with the most underrated big time player I've ever watched. He's the best player since MJ IMO. Me being a mavs fan has nothing to do with my opinion that the spurs are by far the best team over the last decade. (other than the shaq/kobe lakers)
Obviously officials make mistakes.......then you have cheaters like that one official. However, that doesn't take away from what the spurs accomplished. I recall a game in which they dominated the suns in game 6......where after the game people wanted to make excuses about every other loss.........they wouldn't acknowledge the beating that the spurs dealt out that game. The mavs in the finals got some tough foul calls go against them. The biggest problem was having stackhouse suspended on a flagrant foul committed on the whale that is shaq.......then there was a no contact foul that enabled wade to shoot game winning free throws.
However, these wern't the deciding factors that caused the mavs to lose the series. They got beat in every aspect in those final 4 games. the best team often wins a 7 game series. the spurs and heat both deserve everything they have. Anyone else that says otherwise just isn't over it......and needs something to help them sleep at night.

BTW, what does me being a mavs fan have to do with anything. with your leave it to a mavs fan comment. I think I try to be as real as possible with the mavs, spurs, suns, and any other team. I for one dislike the spurs more than any other team(today).....but I have respect for their accomplishments. and It's easy to see from an unbiased point of view that they are clearly the best team in the NBA. Leave it to one paticular suns fan to make a poor excuse in why his/her favorite team lost a 7 game series in the playoffs again. Just defending my honor there.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

nowagimp.......there's nothing I can do to change your opinion about the officiating being the major difference between a team that has 4 titles in the last decade and a team that has 0......ever. I think those numbers speak for themselves, but that's just me. Maybe it has something to do with the most underrated big time player I've ever watched. He's the best player since MJ IMO. Me being a mavs fan has nothing to do with my opinion that the spurs are by far the best team over the last decade. (other than the shaq/kobe lakers)
Obviously officials make mistakes.......then you have cheaters like that one official. However, that doesn't take away from what the spurs accomplished. I recall a game in which they dominated the suns in game 6......where after the game people wanted to make excuses about every other loss.........they wouldn't acknowledge the beating that the spurs dealt out that game. The mavs in the finals got some tough foul calls go against them. The biggest problem was having stackhouse suspended on a flagrant foul committed on the whale that is shaq.......then there was a no contact foul that enabled wade to shoot game winning free throws.
However, these wern't the deciding factors that caused the mavs to lose the series. They got beat in every aspect in those final 4 games. the best team often wins a 7 game series. the spurs and heat both deserve everything they have. Anyone else that says otherwise just isn't over it......and needs something to help them sleep at night.

False.

 

[Lorenzo]

False.

hey.....whatever helps you sleep at night.

 

[arwillan]

False.

to say that the refs didn't play some role in the spurs' championship is silly. the suns best offensive player (amare) was suspended along with diaw for a pivotal game in the series. how can you ignore that fact?

 

[Lorenzo]

to say that the refs didn't play some role in the spurs' championship is silly. the suns best offensive player (amare) was suspended along with diaw for a pivotal game in the series. how can you ignore that fact?

the suns best offensive player is clearly steve nash. but that's not the arguement here. The suspension had an impact on the series no doubt.....whether it was legit or not. and while I think it was a ticky/tack suspension.....it was legal. but it doesn't mean the spurs wern't the better team. If the suns at some point in recent history have been able to prove that they are better than the spurs........maybe I would change my thoughts. Maybe then I would say the ONLY reason the spurs are world champions is because the suns got screwed. But the simple fact that the spurs are perhaps the best team since the chicago bulls or the lakers......I choose to believe they still are the best overall TEAM in the league.

 

[Lorenzo]

the suns best offensive player is clearly steve nash. but that's not the arguement here. The suspension had an impact on the series no doubt.....whether it was legit or not. and while I think it was a ticky/tack suspension.....it was legal. but it doesn't mean the spurs wern't the better team. If the suns at some point in recent history have been able to prove that they are better than the spurs........maybe I would change my thoughts. Maybe then I would say the ONLY reason the spurs are world champions is because the suns got screwed. But the simple fact that the spurs are perhaps the best team since the chicago bulls or the lakers......I choose to believe they still are the best overall TEAM in the league.

and I say maybe because it is my belief that 99.9% of the time the best team wins the 7 game series. I know it is not uncommon for many fans to consider their team to be the exception(.1%) when their team is on the wrong end of a tough loss. Mavs fans(to include mark cuban) are no different.

 

[Cheesebeef]

the idea that the league wants or has conspires to get the Spurs (who's Finals appearances get the lowest ratings in the last 20 years) makes zero sense whatsoever to me. The league is set up to do one thing and one thing only... make as much money as humanly possible. Having a team continually in it's biggest sales pitch of the year stink up the TV set doesn't help accomplish that goal.