Suns turnover problems

slinslin

Welcome to Amareca
Joined
Jun 28, 2002
Posts
16,855
Reaction score
562
Location
Hannover - Germany
This is a minor complaint since in general the offense does a good job and puts efficient numbers unlike our DEFENSE.

I very much believe that the main cause for our turnover problems has nothing to do with our point guards.

In my opinion the root of all evil in this case is the horrid non-existant spacing and off-the ball movement on this team.

We have no spot up shooters and generally none of our players move around without the ball to open passing lanes.

At the same time Hornacek's philosophy is that our guards should look to attack all the time but what happens when the defense shuts down penetration and you have no spacing, no passing lanes? It puts Bledsoe and Knight into tough position to make passes over the defense or through defenders.

Markieff is not a shooter.
Marcus can shoot but he is not a spot up shooter either.
PJ Tucker only shoots from the corner, it is not like he can move around the 3pt line.
Wright can't shoot at all
Goodwin does a nice job of moving without the ball at times mostly slashing to the basket

Gerald Green maybe is the only one that provides some floor spacing.
 

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
120,030
Reaction score
60,605
This is a minor complaint since in general the offense does a good job and puts efficient numbers unlike our DEFENSE.

I very much believe that the main cause for our turnover problems has nothing to do with our point guards.

In my opinion the root of all evil in this case is the horrid non-existant spacing and off-the ball movement on this team.

We have no spot up shooters and generally none of our players move around without the ball to open passing lanes.

At the same time Hornacek's philosophy is that our guards should look to attack all the time but what happens when the defense shuts down penetration and you have no spacing, no passing lanes? It puts Bledsoe and Knight into tough position to make passes over the defense or through defenders.


Markieff is not a shooter.
Marcus can shoot but he is not a spot up shooter either.
PJ Tucker only shoots from the corner, it is not like he can move around the 3pt line.
Wright can't shoot at all
Goodwin does a nice job of moving without the ball at times mostly slashing to the basket

Gerald Green maybe is the only one that provides some floor spacing.

I've brought it up before but the Suns could learn something about floor spacing from a previous HC and the importance of having good spot up shooters. This is especially true when the Suns are not playing good defense. The Suns need to do something well whether it is good offense or playing defense. The Suns do neither well. With no disrespect to the Celtics, the Suns got beat by a D-League team last night.
 

AzStevenCal

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2004
Posts
36,959
Reaction score
16,836
I've brought it up before but the Suns could learn something about floor spacing from a previous HC and the importance of having good spot up shooters. This is especially true when the Suns are not playing good defense. The Suns need to do something well whether it is good offense or playing defense. The Suns do neither well. With no disrespect to the Celtics, the Suns got beat by a D-League team last night.

I understand you're frustrated but that's over the top. The Celtics are coming off back to back losses against bad teams but they went 4 - 1 in the 5 games before that including a win against Atlanta. Their one loss during that 5 game stretch was a 3 point defeat at Milwaukee. We are better than they are but they aren't much closer to being a D League team than we are. And we can blame that loss on the offense all we want but when you give up 67 points in the first half to an inferior team, that's a lack of intensity on defense - mostly by Tucker and Markieff.

Steve
 
Last edited:

sunsfan88

ASFN Icon
BANNED BY MODERATORS
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Posts
11,660
Reaction score
844
I just absolutely hate how everyone stands around instead of moving without the ball. Nobody cuts ever and I think Kieff is the one who this hurts the most because he's a good and willing passer and tries to find others but everyone just stands around.
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
36,987
Reaction score
16,137
Location
Arizona
What drive me nuts is the lack of traditional setup to big men. Yes, I realize we don't exactly have the horses but that's the problem. Our philosophy is to have the guards attack, attack and attack. That's the problem with a guard based system when you have dry spells and jumpers are not falling. Watch teams like San Antonio. When the jumpers stop falling....they go into high percentage shot mode.
 

sunsfan88

ASFN Icon
BANNED BY MODERATORS
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Posts
11,660
Reaction score
844
What drive me nuts is the lack of traditional setup to big men. Yes, I realize we don't exactly have the horses but that's the problem. Our philosophy is to have the guards attack, attack and attack. That's the problem with a guard based system when you have dry spells and jumpers are not falling. Watch teams like San Antonio. When the jumpers stop falling....they go into high percentage shot mode.

And Len and Kieff are both actually not bad low post scorers if we dump it to them properly.
 

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
120,030
Reaction score
60,605
I understand you're frustrated but that's over the top. The Celtics are coming off back to back losses against bad teams but they went 4 - 1 in the 5 games before that including a win against Atlanta. Their one loss during that 5 game stretch was a 3 point defeat at Milwaukee. We are better than they are but they aren't much closer to being a D League team than we are. And we can blame that loss on the offense all we want but when you give up 67 points in the first half to an inferior team, that's a lack of intensity on defense - mostly by Tucker and Markieff.

In my previous post I made mention of the Suns poor defense. The point being, the Suns need to do something well offensively or defensively to win.

The Celtics are clearly in rebuild mode, traded off a chunk of their players and even with Jared Sullinger out, they whomped the Suns on their home court. The reference to the Celtics being a D-League team was used to embellish the Suns plight. Arguably, the Suns are not much better (or better at all) especially when looking towards the future. Also the Suns win over the Nuggets last night was much of the same even though they won. The Nuggets are cleaning house as well. Plus Faried did not play and Jusuf Nurkić goes out injured. The Suns getting a win last night was a painful and ugly experience, especially against a team which should be an inferior team.

Anymore, I do not know if the Suns are under-achieving or over-achieving.
 
Last edited:

devilalum

Heavily Redacted
Joined
Jul 30, 2002
Posts
16,776
Reaction score
3,187
The Suns had 65 rebounds last night and got to the stripe 32 times.
I want to see some more of THAT.
 

AzStevenCal

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2004
Posts
36,959
Reaction score
16,836
In my previous post I made mention of the Suns poor defense. The point being, the Suns need to do something well offensively or defensively to win.

The Celtics are clearly in rebuild mode, traded off a chunk of their players and even with Jared Sullinger out, they whomped the Suns on their home court. The reference to the Celtics being a D-League team was used to embellish the Suns plight. Arguably, the Suns are not much better (or better at all) especially when looking towards the future. Also the Suns win over the Nuggets last night was much of the same even though they won. The Nuggets are cleaning house as well. Plus Faried did not play and Jusuf Nurkić goes out injured. The Suns getting a win last night was a painful and ugly experience, especially against a team which should be an inferior team.

Anymore, I do not know if the Suns are under-achieving or over-achieving.

All season long, what little success this team has had, depended on the play of Markieff, Len and our 3 point guards. We traded away 2 of those pieces and so, in the immediate now, we are something less than what we were. It looks like that on paper and it's just as evident on the court. Whether we'll be better off in the near future or the long term remains to be seen. My point is, we're as much in the maelstrom of rebuilding as the Celtics and the Nuggets are.

I think we have better assets than the Nuggets but I'm not so sure about the Celtics. I'd probably trade our asset collection for theirs. But when we started this rebuild, I would have traded our asset collection for that of any other team in the league. Now, there are at least a dozen teams in worse position than we are.

I was expecting progress from last year and it's disappointing to have to settle for progress from the starting point rather than our high mark but that's often the nature of something like this. You take steps forward and occasionally you slide back a little. I know there are other ways to look at this but given that it's the future, I choose to look at it with hope instead of despair. YMMV.

Steve
 

Errntknght

Registered User
Joined
Sep 24, 2002
Posts
6,342
Reaction score
319
Location
Phoenix
I think TJ is going to help some with our turnover problem because he is very good at getting himself to an open spot at a time the guy with the ball can get it to him. Brandan Wright is pretty good at that, too, and Archie moves quite a lot though his timing isn't as good as TJ's, Experience playing together is going to improve things even more.

I doubt anyone remembers but at the first of the year I said that I wasn't concerned about TJ getting playing time because his ability to cut and move was so good he'd force his way onto the floor. Obviously I was dead wrong but what that really shows is that Hornacek is not a very astute coach - or he's so caught up in his own offensive schemes that he cannot see value in anything else.
 

AzStevenCal

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2004
Posts
36,959
Reaction score
16,836
I think TJ is going to help some with our turnover problem because he is very good at getting himself to an open spot at a time the guy with the ball can get it to him. Brandan Wright is pretty good at that, too, and Archie moves quite a lot though his timing isn't as good as TJ's, Experience playing together is going to improve things even more.

I doubt anyone remembers but at the first of the year I said that I wasn't concerned about TJ getting playing time because his ability to cut and move was so good he'd force his way onto the floor. Obviously I was dead wrong but what that really shows is that Hornacek is not a very astute coach - or he's so caught up in his own offensive schemes that he cannot see value in anything else.

My understanding is it had nothing to do with TJ on the offensive end, he was having trouble picking up the defense. I know, looking at our scores, that explanation seems laughable but that's the story. I want TJ on the court for a lot of reasons but one of the main ones is that he is such a threat on the offensive boards. And he's the type that knows how to get that shot back up, unlike PJ.

Steve
 

Errntknght

Registered User
Joined
Sep 24, 2002
Posts
6,342
Reaction score
319
Location
Phoenix
I think you gave me that explanation the last time I complained about TJ being glued to the bench. But the way our offense stagnates so frequently, it's be worth giving up a bit on D - if indeed we did. I saw what you're talking about on the offensive boards last night against Boston, he did just what you said. PJ gets a lot of his offensive rebounds in heavy traffic but he stills tries to put the ball back up, usually negating the rebound.

I think Horny missed another bet by not using Ennis - he is far better at running an offense than any of our combo guards were. IMO, he did essentially the same thing last year with Ish - it was two thirds of the way through the season before he'd let him play for more than 5 minutes at a stretch. I think the quick hook played a role in Ish shooting at about half of his historical average. I don't know about anyone else but I'm seeing a pattern that disturbs me.
 

AzStevenCal

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2004
Posts
36,959
Reaction score
16,836
I think you gave me that explanation the last time I complained about TJ being glued to the bench. But the way our offense stagnates so frequently, it's be worth giving up a bit on D - if indeed we did. I saw what you're talking about on the offensive boards last night against Boston, he did just what you said. PJ gets a lot of his offensive rebounds in heavy traffic but he stills tries to put the ball back up, usually negating the rebound.

I think Horny missed another bet by not using Ennis - he is far better at running an offense than any of our combo guards were. IMO, he did essentially the same thing last year with Ish - it was two thirds of the way through the season before he'd let him play for more than 5 minutes at a stretch. I think the quick hook played a role in Ish shooting at about half of his historical average. I don't know about anyone else but I'm seeing a pattern that disturbs me.

Yes he is but I believe our front office is relying on analytics here. They value length to height over height itself, quick players over good shooters and penetrators over system PG's. They want guards that can penetrate, defend, shoot, pass, and setup others but in today's game, they believe the distributor has less value than the penetrator. I'm not sure they're right and I'm not even positive I'm correctly calling their approach but that's the way it looks to me.

You apparently hold a far different opinion of Ish Smith than the league does. He's been a salary throw in for multiple trades, waived 4 or 5 times and in his very short career he's already played for 8 different teams. He has brief moments where he looks like an NBA player but they are few and far between. He had a dismal 3 point percentage for us but I think you'll find he shot well above his career average overall when he was on our team.

Steve
 

Errntknght

Registered User
Joined
Sep 24, 2002
Posts
6,342
Reaction score
319
Location
Phoenix
What I was mainly thinking of was Ish's dismal 3 pt shooting - careerwise about 31% before he came here and shot 4.2%. His midrange jumpers weren't very good either as I recall - I'm guessing it was his shots at the rim that kept his average up, as he got quite a few of those in our offense.

I agree with you about what our offense looks like - and I don't care for it much. I think variety is valuable so the opps can't focus on stopping just one or two things - heck, when you get into the playoffs teams will have much more time to figure out how to stop a small set of plays so you're handcuffing yourself in the most important games of the season.
 

sunsfan88

ASFN Icon
BANNED BY MODERATORS
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Posts
11,660
Reaction score
844
The Suns had 65 rebounds last night and got to the stripe 32 times.
I want to see some more of THAT.

We're not gonna be playing against teams that are missing two of their 3 starting front court players every game even though we did out rebound Denver (Chandler & Faried) and OKC (Durant & Adams) in back to back games just now.
 

sunsfan88

ASFN Icon
BANNED BY MODERATORS
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Posts
11,660
Reaction score
844
Turnovers pretty much start with our PGs. I read that Knight and Bledsoe have among the league's worst assist/turnover ratio, that needs to improve drastically if their considered the two best playmakers on the team.
 

WildBB

Yogi n da Bear
Joined
Mar 20, 2004
Posts
14,295
Reaction score
1,239
Location
The Sonoran Jungle - West
Turnovers pretty much start with our PGs. I read that Knight and Bledsoe have among the league's worst assist/turnover ratio, that needs to improve drastically if their considered the two best playmakers on the team.

Watching the last possessions with the game on the line is a torcheur. They (Bledsoe usually) invariably get caught up holding the ball without an outlet with the clock winding down to 0.

Maybe he needs to start earlier in the time clock with like 15-14 secs. left to try and get better looks for his team. This has happened consistently this season in the end of games.
 

devilalum

Heavily Redacted
Joined
Jul 30, 2002
Posts
16,776
Reaction score
3,187
Watching the last possessions with the game on the line is a torcheur. They (Bledsoe usually) invariably get caught up holding the ball without an outlet with the clock winding down to 0.

Maybe he needs to start earlier in the time clock with like 15-14 secs. left to try and get better looks for his team. This has happened consistently this season in the end of games.

Could somebody tell me why Bledsoe stands at the top of the arc and dribbles away the first 15-20 seconds of every shot clock while everybody else stands around watching?
 
OP
OP
slinslin

slinslin

Welcome to Amareca
Joined
Jun 28, 2002
Posts
16,855
Reaction score
562
Location
Hannover - Germany
Funny considering the Suns assist numbers have gone way up since Dragic was traded both compared to this year and last year.

And saying that Bledsoe is dribbling away the first 15-20 seconds of every shotclock is just dumb. We play at one of the highest paces in the entire league, our average posession does not even go nearly that long.
 

AzStevenCal

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2004
Posts
36,959
Reaction score
16,836
Could somebody tell me why Bledsoe stands at the top of the arc and dribbles away the first 15-20 seconds of every shot clock while everybody else stands around watching?

Thanks to you Bill Walton now looks like the master of understatement.

Steve
 

sunsfan88

ASFN Icon
BANNED BY MODERATORS
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Posts
11,660
Reaction score
844
Watching the last possessions with the game on the line is a torcheur. They (Bledsoe usually) invariably get caught up holding the ball without an outlet with the clock winding down to 0.

Maybe he needs to start earlier in the time clock with like 15-14 secs. left to try and get better looks for his team. This has happened consistently this season in the end of games.

He should call for a pick & roll asap instead of just dribbling and staring for no apparent reason. He waits too long sometimes to attack, it's annoying.

And that last possession of the 4th QTR, I wish Knight just got the ball and everyone cleared out for him on an ISO play. It's better than anything else the Suns are capable of running with 6 seconds left on the clock imo.
 

devilalum

Heavily Redacted
Joined
Jul 30, 2002
Posts
16,776
Reaction score
3,187
Thanks to you Bill Walton now looks like the master of understatement.

Steve

Of course that was an exaggeration but it happens a few times every game. We've all seen it. I want to know why?
 

devilalum

Heavily Redacted
Joined
Jul 30, 2002
Posts
16,776
Reaction score
3,187
Funny considering the Suns assist numbers have gone way up since Dragic was traded both compared to this year and last year.

And saying that Bledsoe is dribbling away the first 15-20 seconds of every shotclock is just dumb. We play at one of the highest paces in the entire league, our average posession does not even go nearly that long.

My favorite play is the one where Bledsoe stands at the top of the arc dribbling from hand to hand until there are about 4 seconds left on the shot clock then dribbles into the lane surrounded by defenders and either throws an errant pass or manages to squirt out a wild shot that may or may not touch the rim.

To be fair I don't remember them running this play last night. Hmmmm...
 

AzStevenCal

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2004
Posts
36,959
Reaction score
16,836
Of course that was an exaggeration but it happens a few times every game. We've all seen it. I want to know why?

Watch the Clippers, it happens a few times every game with Chris Paul. Or watch the Thunder, it happens at least a half dozen times every game with Westbrook. And so on. That's pretty common with scoring point guards, they are analyzing and probing the defense for soft spots, and sometimes they are just letting the other players jockey for position before they start their move. It's still a whole lot better than that last season or two of Charles where he'd use up most of the play clock trying to butt-bounce his way into a decent shot.

Steve
 

Members online

Forum statistics

Threads
557,992
Posts
5,451,707
Members
6,336
Latest member
FKUCZK15
Top