Suns @ Warriors Friday game thread 12-27-19

[SirStefan32]

Since the 7-4 start we are 4-16. That’s a 20% win percentage. You’re expecting Ayton to raise the win percentage by 85%?

If Ayton can return and play consistently over the remaining 47-49 games or so, I think his contribution, which will include better rotations and chemistry, can give us a decent shot at 30 wins. I’m not betting on it of course. But I wouldn’t be surprised if it happened.

I don't think it's just about Ayton. Obviously, he is going to help, but it's more about how everything improves downstream in the rotation. You will not give up as many rebounds, you will get a few buckets in the paint, you'll get some second opportunities. Where it really helps though is that all of a sudden you have Baynes in the second unit. You can afford to play Kaminsky less. Same goes for Dario. Your starters are better, your bench is better, you just have more depth, which is really the main weakness of this team. I am not sure if I am conveying my message clearly here, but I really think that Ayton's impact goes well beyond just his direct contributions.

 

[Russ Smith]

FWIW, this trash Warrior team has now won 5 in a row, including a win on Christmas over the Rockets... so I guess the Rockets are trash as well. [emoji15]

4 they lost 5 in a row prior to that. They're definitely better now they're relatively healthy. The Rockets win was the only good team in the 4 but they're playing better.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I don't think it's just about Ayton. Obviously, he is going to help, but it's more about how everything improves downstream in the rotation. You will not give up as many rebounds, you will get a few buckets in the paint, you'll get some second opportunities. Where it really helps though is that all of a sudden you have Baynes in the second unit. You can afford to play Kaminsky less. Same goes for Dario. Your starters are better, your bench is better, you just have more depth, which is really the main weakness of this team. I am not sure if I am conveying my message clearly here, but I really think that Ayton's impact goes well beyond just his direct contributions.

Oh know I get everything that you’re saying. But this is still the same squad only adding a single player. Anytime any team adds a player it has positive (if the player is a positive) trickle down effects. Some maybe more than others, but it’s still just adding a single player to the mix.

 

[WildBB]

At this point Win or Lose this Suns team has to ensure that it will be a hard fought night for any team. Nobody is overlooking the Suns anymore, so the Suns NEED to play 48, and play them them tough & CLEANLY. Playoff BBall starting yesterday. Every possetion. Play it if they mean it!

 

[GatorAZ]

Still amazed that Adam Silver still hasn't said **** it and taken away the team from Sarver. One of the biggest markets in the US and he's letting it go to waste with a bad product. Insane.

If this was actually a thing Dolan and MJ would be in line for relegation before Sarver.

 

[Sunburn]

If the Suns can't remedy Ayton's increasingly worrying bout of TJ Warren Syndrome, Sarver will be able to resurrect the "Amare strategy" and promote Ayton as the team's true 2020 lottery pick thus freeing him to sell the team's pick in the upcoming draft for cash.

Lol this makes me want to laugh and vomit at the same time. Still can't believe Sarver thought that was a good idea.

 

[BC867]

Agreed. Booker is probably a number 3 on a good team. He’d be great on a team that needs scoring because that’s really all he does. He doesn’t regularly make his team or teammates better- he’s a scorer. He wouldn’t be a choice on a winning teams “Big 2”.
IMO Ayton will an average player, nothing to get excited about. He can sleepwalk through games and get stats, but much like Booker, can’t be counted on in critical moments or when the game really matters.

The problem is that there is no hope on the horizon. The Suns hope is at best what they have always been.

A pretty team with a decent home record and playoff appearance. And, since the team was taken over by
Sarver, we are not even near 50-and-fade.

Over the past 40+ seasons, I have not been happy that was our ceiling. Now, I'd love to see it.

 

[BC867]

I just want to see ayton somehow play with authority when if he returns lol to give suns fans a glimpse of hope heading into next season....

Just stinks to have all that hope early in yr than a 360 degrees turn in wrong direction

I think you meant 'then a 180'. A 360 turn is a complete circle and leaves you where you are.

 

[BC867]

I don't think it's just about Ayton. Obviously, he is going to help, but it's more about how everything improves downstream in the rotation. You will not give up as many rebounds, you will get a few buckets in the paint, you'll get some second opportunities. Where it really helps though is that all of a sudden you have Baynes in the second unit. You can afford to play Kaminsky less. Same goes for Dario. Your starters are better, your bench is better, you just have more depth, which is really the main weakness of this team. I am not sure if I am conveying my message clearly here, but I really think that Ayton's impact goes well beyond just his direct contributions.

Your point is spot on. A good domino effect.

The question is whether even that will make us playoff ready, with our weak team defense
and no one to take over the game when needed.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Lastly, regarding Booker... I do believe he would resemble more of a #1 if he had higher quality talent and better chemistry around him.

here's the major disconnect, IMO. A #1 isn't supposed to be dependent on having higher quality talent and better chemistry around them. A true #1 is supposed to elevate mediocre talent to higher levels and create better chemistry around them. A #1 is a guy who makes everyone better.

Booker simply does not do that. And we're not even talking like making the Suns mediocre. Booker hasn't elevated any team he's been on out of being completely awful.

So, on this team he is forced to try way too hard to compensate for the rest of the team and as such, looks more like a solid #2 option...
But again, if he had a better supporting cast and a more cohesive team, I believe he would look much better.

the same can be said for any player. What separates the all-stars from the real #1s in the league is that they make their supporting cast better than they are.

 

[82CardsGrad]

here's the major disconnect, IMO. A #1 isn't supposed to be dependent on having higher quality talent and better chemistry around them. A true #1 is supposed to elevate mediocre talent to higher levels and create better chemistry around them. A #1 is a guy who makes everyone better.

Booker simply does not do that. And we're not even talking like making the Suns mediocre. Booker hasn't elevated any team he's been on out of being completely awful.



the same can be said for any player. What separates the all-stars from the real #1s in the league is that they make their supporting cast better than they are.

I agree with your comments. Not sure if you understood my point however...
I am not saying Booker is true, unquestionable #1. Candidly, I am not entirely sure he is or will be one day. What I said is that if he had higher quality talent around him and a more stable lineup (Ayton), I think he would resemble more of a #1. I didn’t say he is one... just that he would look more like one.

But just for craps & giggles, who would you say are the true #1’s in the game today?

 

[leclerc]

Just have to vent:

• "City" jerseys are stupid. What city? How many cities are there in the US? And the tram. Oh well...
  
• Camera crew filming Steph boasting with the silly towel on the belt. I'm not a fan although I liked his computer game skills when he first got into the league, before they started winning everything and he started showing his personality.
  
• Why didn't anyone pay back for Green hitting Channing Frye in the nuts? Should happen every time we play this punk.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I agree with your comments. Not sure if you understood my point however...
I am not saying Booker is true, unquestionable #1. Candidly, I am not entirely sure he is or will be one day. What I said is that if he had higher quality talent around him and a more stable lineup (Ayton), I think he would resemble more of a #1. I didn’t say he is one... just that he would look more like one.

But just for craps & giggles, who would you say are the true #1’s in the game today?

Good question. I don't think there's a lot of them in the league right now, especially with Steph and KD injured. And I think there's different #1 tiers.

TOP TIER:
Doncic, Harden, Giannis, Kawai, LeBron

SECOND TIER (still great players that can control a game, but have some warts):
Donovan Mitchell, Jokic, Embiid, Lilliard, Davis and if I'm really stretching, maybe Jimmy Butler... who really would be an absolutely top-notch #2 on a title contender.

That's really it for me. Everyone else either has too many flaws in their game/haven't proven to be guys that can really have a successful team built around them.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Good question. I don't think there's a lot of them in the league right now, especially with Steph and KD injured. And I think there's different #1 tiers.

TOP TIER:
Doncic, Harden, Giannis, Kawai, LeBron

SECOND TIER (still great players that can control a game, but have some warts):
Donovan Mitchell, Jokic, Embiid, Lilliard, Davis and if I'm really stretching, maybe Jimmy Butler... who really would be an absolutely top-notch #2 on a title contender.

That's really it for me. Everyone else either has too many flaws in their game/haven't proven to be guys that can really have a successful team built around them.

Wouldn’t argue with any of that... So the next question is - where would you slot Booker?
IMHO, I believe Devin has the ability to get into the second tier of #1’s, but for reasons I’ve stated previously, he resembles more of a #2 at the moment...

 

[BC867]

Just have to vent: "City" jerseys are stupid. What city? How many cities are there in the US? And the tram. Oh well...

When I saw that City ID, I figured it referred to "Lights" by Journey, now that the Warriers moved across the Bay.

To the people in San Francisco, it doesn't sound stupid.

It is no different than Phoenicians calling the Salt River Valley "The Valley of the Sun" or "The Valley".

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[Cheesebeef]

Wouldn’t argue with any of that... So the next question is - where would you slot Booker?
IMHO, I believe Devin has the ability to get into the second tier of #1’s, but for reasons I’ve stated previously, he resembles more of a #2 at the moment...

Booker right now he could be a solid #2 on a middling playoff team. I think at his best use, he can be a great #2 on a contender. There would have to be a quantum leap in a lot of different aspects of his game to ever become a #1 for any playoff team that isn't an 8 seed.

overall, I think we're basically the younger version of the T-Wolves unless we somehow win the lotto next year and actually get a legit HOF #1. Otherwise, I think our trajectory is going to look a lot like that T-Wolves club.

 

[leclerc]

When I saw that City ID, I figured it referred to "Lights" by Journey, now that the Warriers moved across the Bay.

To the people in San Francisco, it doesn't sound stupid.

It is no different than Phoenicians calling the Salt River Valley "The Valley of the Sun" or "The Valley".

Thanks for enlightening me.

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

Good question. I don't think there's a lot of them in the league right now, especially with Steph and KD injured. And I think there's different #1 tiers.

TOP TIER:
Doncic, Harden, Giannis, Kawai, LeBron

SECOND TIER (still great players that can control a game, but have some warts):
Donovan Mitchell, Jokic, Embiid, Lilliard, Davis and if I'm really stretching, maybe Jimmy Butler... who really would be an absolutely top-notch #2 on a title contender.

That's really it for me. Everyone else either has too many flaws in their game/haven't proven to be guys that can really have a successful team built around them.

I see what you are saying, but I have to disagree with most of it. Harden is a great individual player, for instance, but doesn't play defense any better than Booker. Doncic certainly doesn't - doesn't even attempt on most nights. So, the first two guys on your list are offense only - so let's talk about offense only. All of these guys take a lot more shots than Booker (3+ per game). So are you saying that volume scorers, on poorer percentages, are the true #1's? All the guys in your top list are physically big players who get to impose their will on the competition and get the benefit of the doubt, for one reason or another. Unfortunately Booker got left out of that gene pool. Doncic and LeBron have great assist numbers, the others are near or less than Booker.
In your second tier list, Booker has a better EFG% than all of them. Jokic is a great team center, but he is just a good player without the rest of that very deep team. Mitchell is a nice player but he is not the reason that team is good. They want you to believe that, but watch the Jazz play. Embiid is similar to Jokic and I think that Philly would trade Embiid before Simmons. Lillard is a pretty good/great assist guy, but when you look at the big games when they need scoring it is generally McCollum. Davis couldn't do anything to raise NO, but now that he is with the Lakers he is a #1 guy? Butler? What team has he lifted? Philly failed to advance with a deeper team than the Raps with him. Now that he is on another good team with the Heat he is a #1?
My point is, it is a chicken and egg thing. Booker can "go off" like any of the guys on your list - we have all seen it before. But because the TEAM has a poor record he is not worthy of having a team built around him? That is nonsense. If they ever get a true team around him we will see, I guess. If you are saying that he has a true team around him then I have to disagree. No PF, no #1 center, a PG who, while miles better than anyone they have had since Dragic, can't shoot and is a liability late in games because of it. No back-up PG, and very little in the way of scoring off the bench.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I see what you are saying, but I have to disagree with most of it. Harden is a great individual player, for instance, but doesn't play defense any better than Booker. Doncic certainly doesn't - doesn't even attempt on most nights. So, the first two guys on your list are offense only - so let's talk about offense only. All of these guys take a lot more shots than Booker (3+ per game). So are you saying that volume scorers, on poorer percentages, are the true #1's?

I'm saying the guys who can completely control the offense and create matchup nightmares, switches, attack the rim getting the other team in foul trouble are true number 1s. Booker isn't close to the overall playmaker those guys are and that's what makes them #1s. They impact WINNING games because their control of the offense can win games to offset their defensive liabilities.

Booker is just as much of a liability on D and is very good (but great) scorer who doesn't run a great offense.

Bottom line - Doncic and Harden routinely dominate on one side of the court in all facets. Booker doesn't. That's what separates those guys.

All the guys in your top list are physically big players who get to impose their will on the competition and get the benefit of the doubt, for one reason or another. Unfortunately Booker got left out of that gene pool. Doncic and LeBron have great assist numbers, the others are near or less than Booker.

Doesn't matter that Booker got left out of the gene pool. It is what it is.

In your second tier list, Booker has a better EFG% than all of them. Jokic is a great team center, but he is just a good player without the rest of that very deep team. Mitchell is a nice player but he is not the reason that team is good. They want you to believe that, but watch the Jazz play. Embiid is similar to Jokic and I think that Philly would trade Embiid before Simmons. Lillard is a pretty good/great assist guy, but when you look at the big games when they need scoring it is generally McCollum.

disagree about everything here. The Nuggets run everything through Jokic. Mitchell isn't the reason the Jazz are good? Are you serious?

Davis couldn't do anything to raise NO, but now that he is with the Lakers he is a #1 guy?

Davis took that atrocious Pelicans team to the playoffs TWICE and the second round once. Terrible teams that he lift. Booker has never lifted a terrible team to more than 23 wins. Yes. He's a low-end #1.

Butler? What team has he lifted? Philly failed to advance with a deeper team than the Raps with him. Now that he is on another good team with the Heat he is a #1?

He's at the lowest end of #1s and I'm pretty sure I said that he's really a top-tier #2 but you can at least argue that he was a number 1 who took the Bulls to the playoffs (and they have stunk on ice ever since he left), he was the driving force that actually made the T-Wolves a playoff team and they've fallen back to being the 30 win T-wolves since he left and if you don't think he's the driving force behind Miami's resurgence, you're not watching basketball.

But again, I'd really list him as one of the best #2s in the game.

My point is, it is a chicken and egg thing. Booker can "go off" like any of the guys on your list - we have all seen it before. But because the TEAM has a poor record he is not worthy of having a team built around him? That is nonsense. If they ever get a true team around him we will see, I guess. If you are saying that he has a true team around him then I have to disagree. No PF, no #1 center, a PG who, while miles better than anyone they have had since Dragic, can't shoot and is a liability late in games because of it. No back-up PG, and very little in the way of scoring off the bench.

no one's saying Booker needs to elevate THIS team to be a title contender. But he hasn't shown the ability to elevate ANY team, including this one that everyone in the off-season was saying finally had an NBA roster to even be mediocre.

Let me ask you this question. If you put traded James Harden to this team for Booker, do you think we would have lost 16 of our last 20 games? Do you think Houston would be the #3 seed? What if you traded Booker for Doncic. Do you think those records would be reversed?

 

[BC867]

I see what you are saying, but I have to disagree with most of it. Harden is a great individual player, for instance, but doesn't play defense any better than Booker. Doncic certainly doesn't - doesn't even attempt on most nights. So, the first two guys on your list are offense only - so let's talk about offense only. All of these guys take a lot more shots than Booker (3+ per game). So are you saying that volume scorers, on poorer percentages, are the true #1's? All the guys in your top list are physically big players who get to impose their will on the competition and get the benefit of the doubt, for one reason or another. Unfortunately Booker got left out of that gene pool. Doncic and LeBron have great assist numbers, the others are near or less than Booker.
In your second tier list, Booker has a better EFG% than all of them. Jokic is a great team center, but he is just a good player without the rest of that very deep team. Mitchell is a nice player but he is not the reason that team is good. They want you to believe that, but watch the Jazz play. Embiid is similar to Jokic and I think that Philly would trade Embiid before Simmons. Lillard is a pretty good/great assist guy, but when you look at the big games when they need scoring it is generally McCollum. Davis couldn't do anything to raise NO, but now that he is with the Lakers he is a #1 guy? Butler? What team has he lifted? Philly failed to advance with a deeper team than the Raps with him. Now that he is on another good team with the Heat he is a #1?
My point is, it is a chicken and egg thing. Booker can "go off" like any of the guys on your list - we have all seen it before. But because the TEAM has a poor record he is not worthy of having a team built around him? That is nonsense. If they ever get a true team around him we will see, I guess. If you are saying that he has a true team around him then I have to disagree. No PF, no #1 center, a PG who, while miles better than anyone they have had since Dragic, can't shoot and is a liability late in games because of it. No back-up PG, and very little in the way of scoring off the bench.

Discussing Booker as a potential superstar calls for super high standards, not just very good.

As we've watched Devin develop, he is a very good Shooting Guard . . . on offense. Period!

As I mentioned previously, just like Walter Davis, when he played the Wing (Small Forward
then Shooting Guard, both scoring positions) back in the day.

We loved Sweet D for what he contributed. But he was not a superstar. And neither is Devin.
Despite how much we'd like him to be. Which, ironically, has led to our disappointment when
he was asked to carry multiple roles for which he was not suited.

The Suns desperation led to that situation. And Devin and Suns fans have a right to be pissed
off at the shortsightedness of Suns management which took the easy (and cheap) way out.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Since the 7-4 start we are 4-16. That’s a 20% win percentage. You’re expecting Ayton to raise the win percentage by 85%?

Hey @Ouchie-Z-Clown - after this amazing win in Portland, we now need 17 wins to hit 30 on the season... Which means we would need to win 35% of the remaining games to get there.
So again I'll say, if Ayton can remain healthy and play consistent minutes, I like our chances!

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

Not going to quote everything there, but I am dead serious about Mitchell. I watch every single Jazz game. He is a bit of a chucker and doesn't pass well other than lobs to Gobert.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Hey @Ouchie-Z-Clown - after this amazing win in Portland, we now need 17 wins to hit 30 on the season... Which means we would need to win 35% of the remaining games to get there.
So again I'll say, if Ayton can remain healthy and play consistent minutes, I like our chances!

Back to back wins certainly helps that possibility.

 

[Hoop Head]

Not going to quote everything there, but I am dead serious about Mitchell. I watch every single Jazz game. He is a bit of a chucker and doesn't pass well other than lobs to Gobert.

I haven't watched that many Utah games this year but I watched a dozen last season and have seen a couple this year, Mitchell is not a #1 you can build around unless you want a team that caps out between 35-40 wins. They might squeak into the playoffs occasionally if they got hot but it wouldn't be as more than a 7th or 8th seed. Gobert is the real centerpiece of that team and even though he's not a very good offensive player he's an absolute monster on defense that shuts down the paint. He allows their perimeter defenders to gamble more because they know he's behind them so if their guy gets inside, he'll be stopped. We saw what a good defensive center can do for team defense early on when Baynes was playing well in Phoenix, before he got hurt. They not only guard the rim but they direct others, which is part of why Kokoskov wanted Ayton to be the "defensive coordinator" for the Suns last year. He saw first hand how Utah's defense was built around Gobert. Of course that was asking too much of Ayton but most good defensive teams start with a solid Center directing things.

If Utah didn't have Gobert, they'd be similar to the Suns in record and success while trying to ride Mitchell like the Suns do Booker. The Jazz have a better coach and supporting cast but that's evened out recently. If you swapped Booker and Mitchell though I think we'd see similar results from each team. I think both teams might end up improving by 2-3 games but it wouldn't be much of a difference. The Jazz would get a little better because Booker would be their SG and they wouldn't have the question of who their PG really is, Rubio/Conley or Mitchell. The Suns would benefit from that also because Mitchell is more of a natural combo guard than Booker so asking him to cover some minutes at PG would produce better results. Rather than the Suns forcing Booker to play PG, it would be a natural decision to slide Mitchell over there for stretches.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Hey @Ouchie-Z-Clown - after this amazing win in Portland, we now need 17 wins to hit 30 on the season... Which means we would need to win 35% of the remaining games to get there.
So again I'll say, if Ayton can remain healthy and play consistent minutes, I like our chances!

Hey @Ouchie-Z-Clown, guess what? The Suns won AGAIN! They now only need to win 16 more times, or 34% off their remaining games, to reach 30 wins for the season!
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