sunsfn 1/25/2005 report Nash/Marbury

[sunsfn]

Tuesday, January 25, 2005


Knicks need winners, not stars



By Chad Ford
ESPN Insider



Is Stephon Marbury a loser?

Let's just get it out on the table now because in a few hours on Tuesday, when Steve Nash and the Suns show up at Madison Square Garden, this debate is going to happen. ...again.

The perception out there is that Tuesday's match-up will be the tale of two points guards:

The Suns are led by the NBA's most selfless point guard – a guy who leads the league in assists and only takes shots when there's no one on the floor with a better one.

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[font=verdana, arial, geneva]In 1995, Nash (left) helped Santa Clara to victory over Marbury's Georgia Tech.[/font]The Knicks are lead by the NBA's self-proclaimed best point guard – a guy who fills up a stat sheet everywhere but where it counts – in the victory column.



But is the perception rooted in fact? Marbury has been on of the most consistent and productive players in the NBA the past seven years. Is he really to blame?

The debate about Marbury and the "L-word" will continue to rage in Minneapolis, East Rutherford, N.J., Phoenix, New York City and any of his other potential NBA stops until a Marbury-led team either wins more than 50 games and a playoff series or two or falls apart after he leaves.

Unfortunately for Steph, a 50-victory season and sustained playoff success have not been hallmarks of his seven-year career.

The tale of the tape is tough to ignore. Marbury has never led a team he's played on to more than 45 wins in a season or a playoff series victory. The other side of the coin is even more unsavory.

Every team that Stephon has played for has gone on to enormous success the season after he left the team. Last season's Suns were 12-27 when Marbury left the team. This year, their record is 32-6 when Nash is in the starting lineup.

Even his stint as the starting point guard on Team USA in the 2004 Athens Olympics ended in disaster.

Maybe that's why he created such a stir earlier in the month when he proclaimed himself the best point guard in the NBA.

With the exception of his mother, his groupies over at Slam! magazine and Knicks president Isiah Thomas, he doesn't have a helluva lot of support for his proclamation.

Everyone from his former teammates in Phoenix to his current head coach on the Knicks, Herb Williams, concedes that Nash is the best point guard in the league right now.

"He can get in the paint; he's real crafty with the ball; he finds their three-point shooters," Williams said of Nash. "Without him, that show doesn't run."

"[Nash's] getting everyone the ball. Everyone loves a teammate that gets you the ball in a position to score," Shawn Marion, Marbury's former teammate, told Insider earlier this month when comparing Nash and Marbury. "Last year we had so many guys who could score, yet our point guard was taking a lot of the shots. That's the difference."

Suns center Amare Stoudemire put it more succinctly.

"Nash creates opportunities to get easy baskets. The game of basketball isn't easy. But he helps make it easy. ...That's what real point guards do."

Marbury claims that the criticism doesn't sting. Maybe it shouldn't. Other top players like Grant Hill, Elton Brand and Andre Miller have never won a playoff series. Until last spring, the league's MVP, Kevin Garnett, had not gotten out of the first round. None of them have taken the beating Marbury has.

Marbury has consistently ranked as one of the top four or five point guards in the NBA every year. Even when using more sophisticated statistical tools like plus/minus and player efficiency ratings, Marbury's career, on paper, has been a success. He is one of the best scorers in the league, can get to the basket whenever he wants, creates numerous shots for himself and his teammates, never misses a game and he's fun to watch.

He even has rational explanations for the failure of his teams. Every team he's played for has sustained substantial injuries that have contributed to the team's woes. Could the lack of a supporting cast be the real reason for his failure?

"I've always been 'team(-oriented),'" Marbury said earlier this month.

"I've just got players [now] that can finish – it's not just myself making plays. It's totally different when Jason Kidd was playing with Kenyon Martin, as opposed to the guys that he's playing with now. It makes the game totally different. You can't be as effective.

[size=-2][/size][size=-1]Stephon Marbury[/size]
[size=-2]Point Guard
New York Knicks[/size]

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[size=-2]Profile
[/size][size=-2][/size]2004-2005 SEASON STATISTICS

[size=-2]GM[/size][size=-2]PPG[/size][size=-2]RPG[/size][size=-2]APG[/size][size=-2]FG%[/size][size=-2]FT%[/size][size=-2]40[/size][size=-2]20.7[/size][size=-2]3.0[/size][size=-2]8.5[/size][size=-2].462[/size][size=-2].846[/size]

"Myself, with me being in the situation that I'm in right now, that Isiah has put me in, where he's [put] guys around me that can really play."

However, if Marbury is such a good player and is finally surrounded guys who "can really play", why are the Knicks so bad?

Despite another season of all-star type numbers for Stephon (he's ranks third in the NBA in assists with 8.5 per game), the Knicks have lost nine of their last 10 and are embarking on a brutal Western Conference road stretch in their schedule that could leave them with a 2-20 mark from the start of January through mid-February.

"Right now, it's garbage, the way we've played," Marbury told reporters on Monday. "It's amazing how you're judged. If you win a championship, it's not you, it's the team. When you're losing, it's you. You really can't win either way."

If point guards are players who are supposed to elevate the team, make an offense flow and lead the team to victory, the Knicks' rebuilding plan might be in serious trouble. [size=-2][/size][size=-1]Steve Nash[/size]
[size=-2]Point Guard
Phoenix Suns[/size]

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[size=-2]Profile
[/size][size=-2][/size]2004-2005 SEASON STATISTICS

[size=-2]GM[/size][size=-2]PPG[/size][size=-2]RPG[/size][size=-2]APG[/size][size=-2]FG%[/size][size=-2]FT%[/size][size=-2]39[/size][size=-2]15.7[/size][size=-2]3.1[/size][size=-2]10.9[/size][size=-2].519[/size][size=-2].916[/size]

Why? Because Stephon is the Knicks rebuilding plan.

"You take him away, what's left?" coach Williams said on Monday.

Knicks president Isiah Thomas sees himself in Stephon. Marbury sells tickets, plays with a flair and few guards in the league can rack up his numbers or match his durability.

That's why in the hundreds of trade conversations Thomas has had since bringing Marbury on board last winter and the countless blueprints the Knicks have agonized over to rebuild the team, the idea of trading Marbury has never grown any legs.

Ousted coach Lenny Wilkens had many faults. He paid almost no attention to defense. He was quiet, mild-mannered, affable and didn't motivate millionaires the way he should have. But, according to a league source, it was when he approached Thomas with the idea that Marbury might be the guy who needs to go that Wilkens – who "resigned" Jan. 22 – finally was shown the door.

Talk of Phil Jackson or Larry Brown coaching the Knicks is ultimately absurd. Neither coach has much of a tolerance for players like Marbury. As coach of the Lakers, Jackson couldn't stand Kobe Bryant and Kobe was winning titles. Brown could never totally reconcile with Allen Iverson, despite the fact that The Answer actually got the 76ers If he insists on rebuilding around Marbury, Isiah doesn't have much wiggle room to fix the Knicks.

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[font=verdana, arial, geneva]The Knicks' insistence on building around Marbury (left) pushed Wilkens out of the picture.[/font]In the past six weeks, Isiah has focused on making more changes to Marbury's supporting cast. Penny Hardaway, Tim Thomas and Kurt Thomas are the latest Knicks rumored to be out the door. Isiah has been working frantically the last month to package them in trade for another scorer. The latest has him reportedly offering the Hardaway and Kurt Thomas to the Raptors for Jalen Rose and Donyell Marshall.



It's just one of a hundred rumors that has made its way out of New York the past month as Thomas works the phones in a twisted game of musical chairs with bad contracts and flawed players.

The solutions that Isiah are pursuing don't address the core of the problem in New York. Coaches didn't work the phones and sign the checks. Role players don't run the team.

Isiah rightly believes that players are ultimately judged by winning.

"At the end of (Marbury's) career, you're judged by the rings on your finger," Thomas said last season. "Fortunately enough for him, he's been man enough to accept the challenge and responsibility to go for it, and try to achieve it. There are a lot of players that have run from that responsibility."

Marbury either has to figure out how to use his special talents to win, or Isiah has to surround him with players who can teach him what it takes to win a championship. Neither is happening in New York right now.

Marbury and the GMs who have tried to build teams around him haven't solved the mystery. Call him selfish. Blame it on bad karma. There are enough excuses to go around.

Just about everywhere that Marbury has played, he's been the best player on his team. But until Marbury figures out how to get some of that talent to rub off onto the rest of the guys he plays with or Isiah finds a few players to play alongside Stephon whose winning attitude is contagious, the Knicks are going nowhere.

 

[elindholm]

I'm one of the few Marbury defenders left on this board, but let's be fair. Kidd has been in the league a long, long time, and he's made it out of the first round a grand total of twice. Nash's playoff record isn't particularly stellar either.

Any point guard's success is ultimately up to his teammates.

 

[frdbtr]

I tried really hard to like Marbury while he was here in Phoenix, and I don't think that he is an intentionally selfish player but lets be real here. Marbury doesn't have the first clue on how to run and offense. His game includes, getting his outside shooting going and then using it to drive to the basket and pitch to other players. When he is hot, his teams are nearly unstoppable but when he is cold, his teams have zero offense. Unfortunately for Marbury, his outside shooting is really streaky so his offenses struggle more often then they are successful. Like I said before, I think that he sounds like a good guy and doesn't want to be a selfish player but I really don't think that he "gets it" when it comes to how an offense should really be run. Jason Kidd (as big of an ass as he is) makes his teammates better, Stephon Marbury, does not.

 

[coloradosun]

I'm one of the few Marbury defenders left on this board, but let's be fair. Kidd has been in the league a long, long time, and he's made it out of the first round a grand total of twice. Nash's playoff record isn't particularly stellar either.

Any point guard's success is ultimately up to his teammates.

I disagree, point guards have to make his teammates better, that's why the only catagory that they dominate are assists. A center, power forward or shooting guards are never contenders for that catagory. Centers usually lead in shooting percentage, PG guards have to get them the ball while their in a good positon on the low post. Shooting guards: usually lead the league in 3pt. %, the more open they are the higher their average. The common denominator is an assist that is distributed by a point guard.

 

[scotsman13]

personally i like marbury and was sad but understood why he had to go. there is a lot to like marbury's game. i will say this marbury's problem along with a lot of other players is understanding when it is time to give the ball up. sure he creats assists for a lot of players on his team but the problem when he is creating them. most of the time with marbury the ball needs to be in his hands. and then he creats for others.

while nash on the other hand gives the ball up almost all the time and is looking to give it up when he does have it.

it is a lot easier to defend against one player trying to score or pass then it is to defend against a player who is trying to creat for others. first one i can put a couple people on him and likely make him take a bad shot while with a pass first i have to cut off the passing lines all the while take away his ability to score. with players that cant shot (i.e ason kidd) you dont have to play them to take away their shot while players like nash on this team make it almost impossable to defend them. it comes down to pick your posion 30 points from nash or 30 points from q, jj, marion or amare. and with the pcik and roll it comes down to which 2 or 3 do you want to give up the 30 poitns to.

 

[Joe Mama]

I'm not sure how I really feel about Marbury. Obviously the biggest problem with Marbury is that he dominates the ball. He gets trapped between the free-throw line and half-court far too easily, and it takes half the time off the 24 second clock. He cannot push the ball regularly either.

I do think Marbury can be a winner though. He and Kevin Garnett could have been a very nice duo for a long time if he hadn't become homesick and a little jealous of the attention KG was getting. It's got to kill him to know he left that situation.

That said, I think Isaiah Thomas has been an idiot with that team. He should have never traded for Tim Thomas. He should never have signed Crawford. That was just an awful signing for that team. It did not make any sense at all. There's really been to many bad news to name them all.

Joe Mama

 

[PetryJr]

That said, I think Isaiah Thomas has been an idiot with that team. He should have never traded for Tim Thomas. He should never have signed Crawford. That was just an awful signing for that team. It did not make any sense at all. There's really been to many bad news to name them all.

I agree. When Marbury was traded to New York, I thought he was a good fit for that team. Marbury needs shooters around him, and the bigs must be able to shoot from about 15 feet, so he can run the pick-and-roll with them. Allan Houston was perfect for him, and so was Van Horn (even though people say the two don't get along that well). Michael Doleac had the best stretch of his career playing alongside Marbury.

Then what happens? Houston is out for the season with an injury, and Isiah Thomas decides to trade away Van Horn and Doleac, getting Tim Thomas and Nazr Mohammed.

So, this year, Marbury has:
- at the 2: Allan Houston, but not the same Allan Houston. In and out of the lineup because of injuries.
- at the 3: Tim Thomas, who is way too inconsistent to be relied on (think JJ of a couple of years ago), and doesn't play D at all.
- at the 4: Kurt Thomas, who I think is a very good fit. Good midrange jumper, plays D, and rebounds well. This is a guy the Knicks should keep, so he will probably be traded.
- at the 5: Nazr Mohammed, playing the best season of his career. He's also a good fit for Marbury, and the two work quite well together.
- on the bench: Jamal Crawford (a TERRIBLE fit. The guy is Q with a worse shot-selection), Moochie Norris (an ok backup PG, nothing special), Penny Hardaway (enough said), Trevor Ariza (a rookie with a very bright future, but, again, not a good fit for this team. He's not a good shooter and is at his best playing on a faster pace), Mike Sweetney (another good player. Thomas should keep him, because he fits the system and is quite talented), Jerome Williams (hustle player, not a lot of offense. Doesn't hurt the team)

So, Isiah Thomas still has some good pieces to build around Marbury, but he added some more that just don't fit and never will. The core of the team should be Marbury, Sweetney and Mohammed, but Thomas will probably try, once again, to hit a home run with a trade and, most likely, will miss once again.

I think Marbury can definitely win, with the right players around him. I thought so when he was in Phoenix, why would I think differently just because he doesn't play for my favorite team anymore?

 

[JCSunsfan]

That is the problem with Marbury. No one has ever bothered to build a team around him to complement his strengths. For some reason, GM's misread his strengths. The previous post describes this quite well. He is not, and should not be considered a running pg. Surround him with shooters, and some quality defenders and he will succeed. He could even win a championship.

The problem with Marbs in NY is Isiah, not Steph. If they had kept the same cast as they had, he would be better. VanHorn was a perfect teammate for Marbs.

Oh well, he's not our problem (or solution) now.

 

[Tank]

VanHorn was a perfect teammate for Marbs.

Of course he was, just look at the success they had together in NJ...

 

[sunsfn]

VanHorn actually is the perfect match for marbury, but the problem was VanHorn was hurt for a while and then Marbury would not pass him the ball!!!!

Marbury would not pass the ball to Amare and Amare would constantly be upset by it.
You should all remember the times Amare would run the court and Marbury would actually slow down and then go to the other side of the court and not give the ball to Amare, same think happened to Marion.

I think Marbury can be a heck of a player, but there is no doubt he can not pass like Nash and Kidd, and sometimes it is because he does not want to pass like Nash & Kidd.............it is called being selfish!

 

[jibikao]

I tried really hard to like Marbury while he was here in Phoenix, and I don't think that he is an intentionally selfish player but lets be real here. Marbury doesn't have the first clue on how to run and offense. His game includes, getting his outside shooting going and then using it to drive to the basket and pitch to other players. When he is hot, his teams are nearly unstoppable but when he is cold, his teams have zero offense. Unfortunately for Marbury, his outside shooting is really streaky so his offenses struggle more often then they are successful. Like I said before, I think that he sounds like a good guy and doesn't want to be a selfish player but I really don't think that he "gets it" when it comes to how an offense should really be run. Jason Kidd (as big of an ass as he is) makes his teammates better, Stephon Marbury, does not.

I agree that Nash is really hard to guard, not because he is super athletic, super quick with his ball or he is very tall like T-MAC running point. It's very hard to guard Nash because when you want to guard him, you guard his passing lane and the people he is trying to pass to. That's a lot more difficult because as a defender, you really have no control on how your teammates guard Amare, Marion, JJ or Q. Your only chance is to hope your teammate steps up and guard the passing lane. And what's more deadly is you can't leave Nash open. As a guard, he is having an unbelievable shooting % this year:

.519(FG) .413(3PT) .916(FT) You just CANNOT leave this guy open but if you stay too close to him, he'll penetrate your defense and if you stay too far from him, he'll make great passes or shots.

The best way to guard Nash is team defense, not individual defense. One of Nash's flaws is that he tends to look for that PERFECT pass. When he doesn't get it, he panics and most of the time, he takes a jumpshot. Sometimes you just can't find that PERFECT pass. This is why having a great inside presence from Amare is beneficial to Nash 'cause if he can't find an assist, he'll give the ball to Amare and let him create his own shots.

OH, I love Suns! Please kick Knicks' arse tonight.

 

[Chaplin]

The best way to guard Nash is team defense, not individual defense. One of Nash's flaws is that he tends to look for that PERFECT pass. When he doesn't get it, he panics and most of the time, he takes a jumpshot. Sometimes you just can't find that PERFECT pass. This is why having a great inside presence from Amare is beneficial to Nash 'cause if he can't find an assist, he'll give the ball to Amare and let him create his own shots.

Considering he makes most of his jumpshots, I don't think "panic" is an accurate description of what he does.

 

[jibikao]

Considering he makes most of his jumpshots, I don't think "panic" is an accurate description of what he does.

Well... I watched him mostly in playoffs 'cause that's when I have the chance to watch almost all Mavs games. I am not saying Nash sucks. I am just saying every player has a flaw and I think that's one of Nash's flaws. He tends to look for that perfect pass. Sometimes he'll over-dribble a little and panic.

But in Mavs, they didn't have any good inside game. Not in Suns!!!

 

[carey]

Jamal Crawford (a TERRIBLE fit. The guy is Q with a worse shot-selection)

Just wanted to note that had it not been for the 40 points Crawford poured in against us we would have beat the Knicks by at least 30.

 

[PetryJr]

Just wanted to note that had it not been for the 40 points Crawford poured in against us we would have beat the Knicks by at least 30.

Look for Crawford to shoot something like 4-for-21 in the next game.

 

[Dylan]

I'm one of the few Marbury defenders left on this board, but let's be fair. Kidd has been in the league a long, long time, and he's made it out of the first round a grand total of twice. Nash's playoff record isn't particularly stellar either.

Any point guard's success is ultimately up to his teammates.

Problem with Marbury is he doesn't push it up fast enough, and gets teammates involved secondary to his offense. I don't think he will ever be on a championship team because of this.

Problem with Kidd is he isn't consistent with outside shot. This allows defense to focus on another guy in the offense. This I think will keep him from a championship.

Stockton was very good ballhandler and shooter and worked the two-man game really well. But he didn't push it up all the time. a good halfcourt point guard who distributed the ball. He passed and scored, and he almost won a championship. If not for Jordan, he would have had one.

Magic Johnson, he pushed it up fast, all the time, AND he could score. He could drive to the basket, and shoot the mid-range, but most of all, he pushed that ball up and got easy baskets for everyone else. You could tell he loved nothing more than to get an easy basket for someone. I used to say you could put Magic on any team in the league and they would make the playoffs, cause he would make anybody look good with the easy buckets he got them. And he was the DEFINITION of a winning point guard. He understood the game so well, and what it takes to win. You couldn't stop him on the fast break, he would just run right at you and then weave around you.

I think Nash is more like Magic, in that he can really push it, is unselfish and can score very well on his own. I'm not saying Nash is a Magic, but he does have the same type of game. And look how he just makes so much difference to the Suns.

So this is why I think Nash is best PG, and we have a chance to go far. If not this year than any of the upcoming years we have him. The perfect PG passes well, is unselfish, and scores, but only as a second option. And I think he gives us a chance, cause he can do both.