Surprise Go and Surprise Stay

[kerouac9]

A pogrom is a deliberate act. If you have have any evidence that Whiz and co. have been deliberately targeting Green picks for removal, I'd like to hear it.

What more evidence do you need than the facts? Starters under Denny Green in the 2008 Super Bowl:

Edgerrin James
Kurt Warner
Larry Fitzgerald
Leonard Pope
J.J. Arrington (KR)
Neil Rackers
Karlos Dansby
Antrel Rolle
Chike Okeafor
Antonio Smith
Deuce Lutui
Darnell Dockett

Anquan Boldin and Reggie Wells were two other players on that team who were acquired under McGinnis but blossomed under Green. Two of those 12 players remain on the roster, and five of the departing players found jobs around the NFL, two of them being major contributors, and one going to the Pro Bowl.

In the meantime, as I said, probably only Smith and Rolle were replaced with equivalent or superior players.

And whether it's Cinncy or the Cards, what is relevant is the Lutui's weight has been noted as a problem, which is costing him opportunity and $$$. He recognizes the problem, so I can't see why you don't.

I don't deny that it's a problem, but it doesn't seem like anyone thinks that he shouldn't be starting in Week 1. Deuce's problem is that his weight in summer is above what the Cards believe his optimal weight is. Deuce's (justified, IMO) opinion is that if you want to tell me what shape I should be in coming into camp, give me a contract that incentivizes that.

The Cards have shown that they're more interested in some players making arbitrary weight in order to make the field over inferior talent.

 

[WisconsinCard]

What more evidence do you need than the facts? Starters under Denny Green in the 2008 Super Bowl:

Edgerrin James
Kurt Warner
Larry Fitzgerald
Leonard Pope
J.J. Arrington (KR)
Neil Rackers
Karlos Dansby
Antrel Rolle
Chike Okeafor
Antonio Smith
Deuce Lutui
Darnell Dockett

I don't disagree with but I also don't think that this is any different then any other team with a new coach. Player do not fit into systems that they want to run.

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

I don't disagree with but I also don't think that this is any different then any other team with a new coach. Player do not fit into systems that they want to run.

Well whatever system Whiz is trying to accomplish doesn't seem to be working in his favor. He's getting rid of above average talent for average at best talent, doesn't make any sense...The only good replacement is Rhodes for Rolle, but other than that, I don't see any positional improvements, especially on defense.

 

[kerouac9]

I don't disagree with but I also don't think that this is any different then any other team with a new coach. Player do not fit into systems that they want to run.

That may be true, but we were running a 3-4 defense in the Super Bowl. We are running a 3-4 defense now. The results speak for themselves--we're on our 3rd DC in four years. Awesome sauce.

The question ought to be that if you're letting good players go, then you better be replacing them with good or great players. The core of that Super Bowl team was Fitz, Boldin, Warner, Deuce, Dansby, Rolle, DRC, Wilson, and Dockett.

The young core of that Super Bowl Team was everyone except Warner, with #7 waiting in the wings (whom Whis was hired in part to develop).

Two years after the Super Bowl appearance, four of those players remain on the roster, one is injured, and one wasn't a particular priority to retain.

Those players have been replaced by Andre Roberts, Daryl Washington, Kerry Rhodes, A.J. Jefferson, and Kevin Kolb. None except Rhodes has established themselves as even average NFL players, and one of whom has never even appeared in an NFL game.

The core of this team right now is...? Washington, Colledge, Sendlein, Fitz, Kolb, Wilson, Dockett, and Rhodes (with a voidable year in 2013)? Of those, Fitz, Wilson, Dockett and Rhodes are established above-average NFL players, and two of those guys are over 30.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I don't deny that it's a problem, but it doesn't seem like anyone thinks that he shouldn't be starting in Week 1 (accept maybe Krang, for whom Whis's opinion is Gospel). Deuce's problem is that his weight in summer is above what the Cards believe his optimal weight is. Deuce's (justified, IMO) opinion is that if you want to tell me what shape I should be in coming into camp, give me a contract that incentivizes that.

The Cards have shown that they're more interested in some players making arbitrary weight in order to make the field over inferior talent.

I don't take what Whisenhunt says as gospel, but I don't parrot the ridiculousness that Lutui is a good player. He's not; he's subpar. He's fat, lazy, and only plays when there is something to motivate him.

You keep saying this garbage, but I've pointed out NUMEROUS decisions Whisenhunt made that I didn't agree with. But I guess you lack the intellectual integrity/maturity to admit to this and to drop the veiled ad hominem attacks.

LOL you think the team should incentize his weight and that's he justified to be a fat ass, which of course is not in the team's best interest. Ridiculous position as a fan of the team.

Now I don't agree with not playing the obviously better player just to make a point (Williams vs. Robinson last season). But Lutui is not better than Hadnot right now.

 

[kerouac9]

I don't take what Whisenhunt says as gospel, but I don't parrot the ridiculousness that Lutui is a good player. He's not; he's subpar. He's fat, lazy, and only plays when there is something to motivate him.

Stop speaking scout language; it's difficult for us non-professionals to understand.

You can repeat this over and over, but it doesn't make it true. I made a perfectly reasonable request that you back up your assertion about "all the scouts that you read" saying this, but you have Matt Williamson (such a good scout he hasn't had a job doing it in 5 years, and when he did it was for one year with one of the most dysfunctional organizations in the NFL) and little else.

So he had "something to motivate him" every one of the last five years when he was the best and most consistent offensive lineman on our team? A fit Deuce Lutui starts for at least 2/3rds of the teams in the NFL, including the New England Patriots.

EDIT: In fact, it's silly how impossible it has become for you to be rational on this topic since Lutui has never failed a conditioning test and is one of the few offensive linemen the Cards have who consistently finish blocks and play through the whistle and is maybe the best OL we have at getting to the second level and blocking a man who isn't assigned to him in the run game. You're positively unhinged in defense of a player who has started all of 7 games in the last two years of a decidedly undistinguished NFL career.

LOL you think the team should incentize his weight and that's he justified to be a fat ass, which of course is not in the team's best interest. Ridiculous position as a fan of the team.

Sure, the team should incentivize his weight. He plays well once the games start for real--always has--and if he doesn't have a contract, no one has the right to tell him what to do when he's not under contract.

I don't care what he looks like in July; I care what he looks like in September. I see no evidence that Deuce isn't going to continue to be our best offensive lineman come September, as has been the case for the past half-decade. You haven't even bothered to dispute this.

Now I don't agree with not playing the obviously better player just to make a point (Williams vs. Robinson last season). But Lutui is not better than Hadnot right now.

Show me anyone besides you who says this. Even in Early's (I think it's him) freeze frames, he's spoken up at least a couple of times in praise of Deuce, but the silence on Hadnot has been deafening. Hadnot isn't playing poorly, but he's not playing as well as Deuce. Deuce has been levelling players in a way that Hadnot just isn't capable of doing.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

What more evidence do you need than the facts? Starters under Denny Green in the 2008 Super Bowl:

Edgerrin James
Kurt Warner
Larry Fitzgerald
Leonard Pope
J.J. Arrington (KR)
Neil Rackers
Karlos Dansby
Antrel Rolle
Chike Okeafor
Antonio Smith
Deuce Lutui
Darnell Dockett

Purely circumstantial, and everyone with specific reasons for departure.

You can add 10, 20 more names, it still offers no evidence of the pogrom; the deliberate, planned, pre-meditated removal of these players as part of some purge of Green draft picks.
Anquan Boldin and Reggie Wells were two other players on that team who were acquired under McGinnis but blossomed under Green. Two of those 12 players remain on the roster, and five of the departing players found jobs around the NFL, two of them being major contributors, and one going to the Pro Bowl.

In the meantime, as I said, probably only Smith and Rolle were replaced with equivalent or superior players.



I don't deny that it's a problem, but it doesn't seem like anyone thinks that he shouldn't be starting in Week 1. Deuce's problem is that his weight in summer is above what the Cards believe his optimal weight is. Deuce's (justified, IMO) opinion is that if you want to tell me what shape I should be in coming into camp, give me a contract that incentivizes that.

The Cards have shown that they're more interested in some players making arbitrary weight in order to make the field over inferior talent.

Purely circumstantial, and everyone with specific reasons for departure.

You can add 10, 20 more names, it still offers no evidence of the pogrom; the deliberate, planned, pre-meditated removal of these players as part of some purge of Green draft picks.

Pay me not to gorge myself. Good luck getting that into a contract. Maintaining one's body in football shape is the player's responsibility, and he's playing Russian roulette with his livelihood when he neglects this for whatever reason.

 

[kerouac9]

Pay me not to gorge myself. Good luck getting that into a contract. Maintaining one's body in football shape is the player's responsibility, and he's playing Russian roulette with his livelihood when he neglects this for whatever reason.

Guys have weight clauses in their contracts all the time in the NFL. And I'd guess that a majority of veteran contracts in the NFL have workout bonuses and incentives for attending offseason training.

In fact, I'd wager that Lutui was a regular attendee of OTAs--when he was under contract with the Arizona Cardinals.

As for the bolded section, Lutui has always maintained his body in football shape. Never failed a conditioning test, hasn't even to my eye or memory looked winded the way that a guy like Dan Williams did last preseason. It's just that Lutui's definition of "football shape" doesn't align with the arbitrary figure that Lott and the rest of the coaching staff has in mind.

As has been evidenced, Lutui has had no problem showing up to camp in shape when he's under contract. It's the seasons where he didn't have a responsibility to the team that there's been a problem. Give the guy a deal, and I have little doubt that he'll participate in offseason training and show up in whatever weight you want him to.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Stop speaking scout language; it's difficult for us non-professionals to understand.

You can repeat this over and over, but it doesn't make it true. I made a perfectly reasonable request that you back up your assertion about "all the scouts that you read" saying this, but you have Matt Williamson (such a good scout he hasn't had a job doing it in 5 years, and when he did it was for one year with one of the most dysfunctional organizations in the NFL) and little else.

So he had "something to motivate him" every one of the last five years when he was the best and most consistent offensive lineman on our team? A fit Deuce Lutui starts for at least 2/3rds of the teams in the NFL, including the New England Patriots.

EDIT: In fact, it's silly how impossible it has become for you to be rational on this topic since Lutui has never failed a conditioning test and is one of the few offensive linemen the Cards have who consistently finish blocks and play through the whistle and is maybe the best OL we have at getting to the second level and blocking a man who isn't assigned to him in the run game. You're positively unhinged in defense of a player who has started all of 7 games in the last two years of a decidedly undistinguished NFL career.



Sure, the team should incentivize his weight. He plays well once the games start for real--always has--and if he doesn't have a contract, no one has the right to tell him what to do when he's not under contract.

I don't care what he looks like in July; I care what he looks like in September. I see no evidence that Deuce isn't going to continue to be our best offensive lineman come September, as has been the case for the past half-decade. You haven't even bothered to dispute this.



Show me anyone besides you who says this. Even in Early's (I think it's him) freeze frames, he's spoken up at least a couple of times in praise of Deuce, but the silence on Hadnot has been deafening. Hadnot isn't playing poorly, but he's not playing as well as Deuce. Deuce has been levelling players in a way that Hadnot just isn't capable of doing.

100% correct. I usually agree with Krang on most things, but on this issue, he's totally wrong.

Lutui is/was/will be our best OL. I don't give a crap how fat he is, or poorly conditioned. Would I prefer him to be in optimal shape and do I think it would help him? Of course! But clearly losing out on millions of dollars wasn't incentive enough for him to slim down, so accept the reality of the situation, and stop playing these games. It does the team no good to try and "punish" him.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Guys have weight clauses in their contracts all the time in the NFL. And I'd guess that a majority of veteran contracts in the NFL have workout bonuses and incentives for attending offseason training.

In fact, I'd wager that Lutui was a regular attendee of OTAs--when he was under contract with the Arizona Cardinals.

As for the bolded section, Lutui has always maintained his body in football shape. Never failed a conditioning test, hasn't even to my eye or memory looked winded the way that a guy like Dan Williams did last preseason. It's just that Lutui's definition of "football shape" doesn't align with the arbitrary figure that Lott and the rest of the coaching staff has in mind.

As has been evidenced, Lutui has had no problem showing up to camp in shape when he's under contract. It's the seasons where he didn't have a responsibility to the team that there's been a problem. Give the guy a deal, and I have little doubt that he'll participate in offseason training and show up in whatever weight you want him to.

You can afford your lack of doubt. It isn't your money or your program that the Cards are maintaining for all players. It's for Deuce to show commitment to maintaining an agreed upon weight, and from this follows a contract.

And, by the way, I don't know what point you're trying to make or defend given the Deuce recognizes the problem as his, not the Cards.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

100% correct. I usually agree with Krang on most things, but on this issue, he's totally wrong.

Lutui is/was/will be our best OL. I don't give a crap how fat he is, or poorly conditioned. Would I prefer him to be in optimal shape and do I think it would help him? Of course! But clearly losing out on millions of dollars wasn't incentive enough for him to slim down, so accept the reality of the situation, and stop playing these games. It does the team no good to try and "punish" him.

Whether you give "a crap" is neither here nor there.

The Cards do, and Lutui recognizes that it is his problem.

He is either going to be part of the 53 man program or take his services somewhere else. He's tried once and was sent packing by Cinncy, of all teams.

The Cards have given him an opportunity to get in shape and get back to the game with the possibility of a secure future, if he's willing to adapt.

"Punished".... please...

Deuce is a victim of his own choices, not the Cards insistence that he shape up or ship out.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Whether you give "a crap" is neither here nor there.

The Cards do, and Lutui recognizes that it is his problem.

He is either going to be part of the 53 man program or take his services somewhere else. He's tried once and was sent packing by Cinncy, of all teams.

The Cards have given him an opportunity to get in shape and get back to the game with the possibility of a secure future, if he's willing to adapt.

"Punished".... please...

Deuce is a victim of his own choices, not the Cards insistence that he shape up or ship out.

Ha, you clearly missed out on the part where he was overweight last year, and still started the first game. He once again shows up overweight, and the team signs him again. Shape up or ship out my ass.

Luckily, as with last year, despite him being overweight he'll make the team and more than likely start.

I'm glad the FO is reasonable enough to attempt to deal with his weight issues but also smart enough to realize that despite his girth, he's our best offensive lineman.

 

[kerouac9]

You can afford your lack of doubt. It isn't your money or your program that the Cards are maintaining for all players. It's for Deuce to show commitment to maintaining an agreed upon weight, and from this follows a contract.

And, by the way, I don't know what point you're trying to make or defend given the Deuce recognizes the problem as his, not the Cards.

If you think that losing the Cards best offensive lineman for the last five years because of an arbitrary weight limit doesn't affect the team, only the player (and not to mention the player the Cards just guaranteed $23 million to playing just a half step behind and to the left, or the player the Cards just guaranteed $40 million to that plays on the other side of the offense), I don't know what to tell you.

After all the years of people complaining that we don't have enough talent on the offensive line, we get a guy who has worked out and has played well enough to deserve a second contract, and people are excited to ship him off because...

...he's not aesthetically pleasing two months before the game matters. Excellent thinking.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

If you think that losing the Cards best offensive lineman for the last five years because of an arbitrary weight limit doesn't affect the team, only the player (and not to mention the player the Cards just guaranteed $23 million to playing just a half step behind and to the left, or the player the Cards just guaranteed $40 million to that plays on the other side of the offense), I don't know what to tell you.

After all the years of people complaining that we don't have enough talent on the offensive line, we get a guy who has worked out and has played well enough to deserve a second contract, and people are excited to ship him off because...

...he's not aesthetically pleasing two months before the game matters. Excellent thinking.

If you don't accept that Deuce, himself, has accepted that THERE IS AN ISSUE and it's for him to come to grips with it, and hopefully solve... then I don't know what tell you.

(As someone who for a decade prepared for training camp, I have no sympathy for the self indulgent, albeit talented, who don't believe the rules apply to them. And I can only shake my head in wonderment at their apologists. If you think there's any sympathy for "poor" Deuce in a dressing room, your kidding yourself.)

 

[ASUCHRIS]

If you don't accept that Deuce, himself, has accepted that THERE IS AN ISSUE and it's for him to come to grips with it, and hopefully solve... then I don't know what tell you.

You should focus more on what people do, not what they say. Deuce can say how much he recognizes it, and that he made a mistake, but what did he do? Ate like a pig and cost himself literally millions in the process.

The Cards front office makes him play with 2nd stringers, sit out practice, has harsh words for him in the press, but what do they do? Start him week 1 last year, and more of the same this year.

Nobody is apologizing for Deuce not getting in shape, all of us would love for him to be in optimal shape, but most of us realize the reality of the situation, and until Deuce decides to not gorge himself, not even the prospect of millions of dollars will change the situation.

Clearly the Cardinals understand this, so they'll punish him, and denounce his behavior, and there he'll be week one, at starting RG.

 

[BigRedRage]

or the org could promote him, make him starter, not say anything and have him be a gorging ****** all season.

 

[kerouac9]

If you don't accept that Deuce, himself, has accepted that THERE IS AN ISSUE and it's for him to come to grips with it, and hopefully solve... then I don't know what tell you.

(As someone who for a decade prepared for training camp, I have no sympathy for the self indulgent, albeit talented, who don't believe the rules apply to them. And I can only shake my head in wonderment at their apologists. If you think there's any sympathy for "poor" Deuce in a dressing room, your kidding yourself.)

I think that Deuce accepted that it's not okay for him to show up fat, because that cost him millions of dollars. I don't think he believes that how he shows up in August has any effect on how he plays come September. Whether he's come to grips with it is a question that neither of us can know, obviously.

I'm not sure what "rules" you're thinking that Deuce has violated. He hasn't been under contract either of the last two offseasons. There aren't any rules that apply to him in those circumstances. If you want him to play by the rules as he's done every other year of his career, then put him under contract.

It's like a job: you should show up for a job interview dressed up in a suit. If you show up in cargo shorts and flip flops, then you aren't going to get hired. But if I'm not an employee an office can't enforce a dress code until I am.

As for the lockerroom, I'm absolutely certain that they think he's a ******* for eating himself out of $4.5 million. I'm sure he hears about it all the time from Dockett and Wilson and the other guys who have deals. And he was a ******* for eating himself out of a long-term deal.

But none of that changes the fact that Deuce Lutui has been and remains the Cards best and most talented offensive lineman. Maybe he can be better than he is if he shows up to camp at 320 or whatever the coaching staff wants him to be at, but he's the best we have even if he's at 340.

 

[MrYeahBut]

(As someone who for a decade prepared for training camp, I have no sympathy for the self indulgent, albeit talented, who don't believe the rules apply to them. And I can only shake my head in wonderment at their apologists. If you think there's any sympathy for "poor" Deuce in a dressing room, your kidding yourself.)

BIM: you're ...CC, you of all people???

 

[Crazy Canuck]

BIM: you're ...CC, you of all people???

Typing on a BlackBerry is my excuse (lol)

 

[Krangodnzr]

Stop speaking scout language; it's difficult for us non-professionals to understand.

<SIGH> Kerouac, if you can't have an adult conversation without resorting to personal attacks, I may have to put you back on ignore and be through with you.

You can repeat this over and over, but it doesn't make it true. I made a perfectly reasonable request that you back up your assertion about "all the scouts that you read" saying this, but you have Matt Williamson (such a good scout he hasn't had a job doing it in 5 years, and when he did it was for one year with one of the most dysfunctional organizations in the NFL) and little else.

Hmm Matt Wiliamson has had more scouting jobs than you have. Matt Wiliamson 1 Kerouac 0. I know you don't care what Profootballfocus says, but they consistently have him ranked as one of the 5-10 worst guards in the league.

So he had "something to motivate him" every one of the last five years when he was the best and most consistent offensive lineman on our team? A fit Deuce Lutui starts for at least 2/3rds of the teams in the NFL, including the New England Patriots.

Disagree. Lutui isn't our best lineman; Lyle Sendlein is.

EDIT: In fact, it's silly how impossible it has become for you to be rational on this topic since Lutui has never failed a conditioning test and is one of the few offensive linemen the Cards have who consistently finish blocks and play through the whistle and is maybe the best OL we have at getting to the second level and blocking a man who isn't assigned to him in the run game. You're positively unhinged in defense of a player who has started all of 7 games in the last two years of a decidedly undistinguished NFL career.

I've said Lutui is an OK player when fat, who can be good when he's not. For some reason this strikes a deep chord for you and makes you feel compelled to throw out insults and all kinds of other rubbish.

I like Keith sure. He doesn't show up to camp 50 pounds overweight.

Sure, the team should incentivize his weight. He plays well once the games start for real--always has--and if he doesn't have a contract, no one has the right to tell him what to do when he's not under contract.

So he shouldn't do it for his own career? LOL ok.

I don't care what he looks like in July; I care what he looks like in September. I see no evidence that Deuce isn't going to continue to be our best offensive lineman come September, as has been the case for the past half-decade. You haven't even bothered to dispute this.

Because I don't believe he's our best lineman. Lyle Sendlein is. Keith will be this year IMO.

Show me anyone besides you who says this. Even in Early's (I think it's him) freeze frames, he's spoken up at least a couple of times in praise of Deuce, but the silence on Hadnot has been deafening. Hadnot isn't playing poorly, but he's not playing as well as Deuce. Deuce has been levelling players in a way that Hadnot just isn't capable of doing.

So because he doesn't mention someone who's not beating up on 2-3rd stringers the "silence is deafening? Hadnot has played well this preseason, but maybe you just don't really watch him. Not my problem.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Well, I'm certainly hoping that Deuce gets it together.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Well, I'm certainly hoping that Deuce gets it together.

I would too. I would also like to see him work hard and not be a fat ass.

 

[kerouac9]

Hmm Matt Wiliamson has had more scouting jobs than you have. Matt Wiliamson 1 Kerouac 0. I know you don't care what Profootballfocus says, but they consistently have him ranked as one of the 5-10 worst guards in the league.

No one who consistently listens to Matt Williamson and his silly opinions crossed with conventional wisdom can possibly believe this. Williamson firmly believes that Mark Sanchez is a bad quarterback, and all it took for him to turn himself around on MoJo Drew this season is someone telling him that he's feeling better.

Disagree. Lutui isn't our best lineman; Lyle Sendlein is.

Well, since you said it, it must be true. At least Lutui had some interest on the open market.

I've said Lutui is an OK player when fat, who can be good when he's not. For some reason this strikes a deep chord for you and makes you feel compelled to throw out insults and all kinds of other rubbish.

I like Keith sure. He doesn't show up to camp 50 pounds overweight.

No, you said that Lutui is sub-par. If you want to backtrack to Lutui is a an okay player when fat, and good when he's in shape, then I totally agree with you.

Who said anything about Keith? It your love affair with the truly nondescript Rex Hadnot that makes no sense to me.

So because he doesn't mention someone who's not beating up on 2-3rd stringers the "silence is deafening? Hadnot has played well this preseason, but maybe you just don't really watch him. Not my problem.

He's fair when guys play well and when guys play poorly. Lutui isn't playing against first-stringers, so it's difficult for him to blow them up. What we do know is that Lutui was blowing up some players, which is more than can be said for Hadnot.

 

[kerouac9]

I know you don't care what Profootballfocus says, but they consistently have him ranked as one of the 5-10 worst guards in the league.

BTW, unless you subscribe to PFF, I challenge you to prove this point. Everything that I can find (and there's no way that I'm paying for such a faulty rating system as what PFF supplies), those guys liked Lutui's play in 2009.

Football Outsiders certainly doesn't think that Lutui is a world-beater, but he doesn't appear on any of their top blown blocks lists.

 

[desertdawg]

You guys are starting to make me feel better about our O-line, keep arguing who is better and I will buy the next round. (seriously, I need this)