T.Suggs has a horrible workout=no big deal/D. Robertson has good workout=Big Deal!

[Lomax to Green 84]

Just an observation, but it sure seems that we all are guilty of finding every conceivable excuse possible to draft our favorite guy and use every concievable excuse possible to not draft anyone other than our favorite guy. Why does Terrell Suggs running a horrible 40 time mean nothing, but DeWayne Robertson running a good 40 time mean he suddenly moves to the top of the pack? Seems to me that the workouts should either mean a bunch for everyone or not mean anything to everyone.

Let me give you some examples of how we (myself included) have used these workouts good or bad to our advantage in justifying our guys:

Terrell Suggs (a bigtime favorite of this board)-goes out and stinks up the joint in his workout-runs a horrible 40 time that was slower than Tom Burke's 40 and Burke ran his on a slow track at the Indy combine-yet because he is Terrell Suggs the workout means nothing.

DeWayne Robertson (another favorite)-runs a very good 40 time and suddenly he catapults ahead of Jimmy Kennedy. Should the 40 time mean anything? I guess it does here but it doesn't for Suggs.

Andre Johnson (a guy no one likes)-runs an awesome 4.28 40 at about 230 pounds, but the workout is actually looked at negatively because he is just an "athlete". Here is a case where the great workout is not only discounted as not important but actually hurts the guy. I guess I am the only one slightly impressed with his 21.1 yard per catch average. But again the 4.28 means nothing.

Jimmy Kennedy (another guy no one likes)-runs a respectable 40 time yet his less than stellar workout drops him down even though his on the field statistics are every bit the equal of DeWayne Robertson. Lets see, Kennedy's decent workout drops him way down but Suggs horrible workout doesn't mean anything.



Its time for this damn draft to get here. I am getting grumpy.

 

[JeffGollin]

even though his on the field statistics are every bit the equal of DeWayne Robertson. Lets see, Kennedy's decent workout drops him way down but Suggs horrible workout doesn't mean anything.
You're drawing conclusions for some of us that we never made.

Some of us WATCHED Kennedy, WATCHED Suggs and WATCHED Robertson and came away with the conclusion that Suggs was the best of the three for the Cardinals, Robertson was second and Kennedy third.

It had nothing to do with (a) on the field stats or (b) Combine stats. Workout numbers are like the proverbial lampost. You use them to illuminate/not lean on.

Sometimes they can help you bolster or refute what you think you know or provide you with a missing aspect of what you need to know about a player. But nothing substitutes for what you see the dude do on the field.

 

[Ed B]

I agree with Jeff. Suggs could run a 5.8 and I wouldn't care. If you've seen the guy play, you can see he has playing speed.

The flip side of the coin is, running a 4.5 wouldn't make him any better. A workout can be a useful piece of information (give you a general sense of a guy's athletic ability) but is no replacement for what he did (or failed to do) on the field.

 

[Lomax to Green 84]

Jeff,

Kind of curious how many University of Kentucky football games you caught this season? University of Kentucky sure is a popular choice (not!!!) in my neck of the woods. I didn't know that the Wildcats were that popular in your state. Be honest, how many games did you see DeWayne Robertson play and you can't count ESPN highlights.

We all (yes you included) get sucked into the draft frenzy. I pulled out my Peterson's NFL Preview guide (2002) and they did a draft preview for 2003 and back in September DeWayne Robertson wasn't even among the top 10 listed defensive tackles.

 

[Lomax to Green 84]

Missing the point

My point was if the 40 time is such a big deal for DeWayne Robertson that it should be a big deal for Terrell Suggs. If the awesome 40 time is not a big deal for Andre Johnson than Robertson's shouldn't be a big deal either.

 

[MadCardDisease]

I think the reason Johnson isn't getting much praise for his forty times is that he is considered somewhat of a "Track Guy". Sure he has great speed but that doesn't matter much if he can't hang onto the ball.

 

[Russ Smith]

Here's why, RObertson was a great player when people thought he was slower, so if he runs faster it's just gravy.

Suggs does depend somewhat on speed, but since so many people say he runs 4.6 40's consistently(read the magazine with him on the cover they say in there he's consistently under 4.7) people are discounting the slow 40 times in the big workout as nerves, fatigue what have you. In other words a guy running slower than expected is more likely to be a fluke than a guy running faster than expected.

Johnson ran well but everyone says he dropped balls and ran poor routes, that's why it hurt him that's what everyone was afraid of with him.

There's certainly an element of circular reasoning too. In Kennedy's case his problem is quite simple, he busted his butt for months to get in great shape but still didn't overwhelm anybody. Supposed he or his agent suggested he was tired during the pro day workouts, which is precisely what everyone was afraid of because of his rep in college for lacking stamina.

I can't wait too get the thing over with.

 

[Walter Mitchell]

Holian & Jeff: Good points. The intangible that workouts don't guage is adrenaline. Some players play with optimum adrenaline...which is what makes them so good. Sometimes all it takes is putting them in pads...not lining them up on a track.

Terrell Suggs is the epitome of an adrenaline player. He plays faster than he normally runs. This kid has a fire in his belly when he lines up on the edge.

Dewayne Robertson is, without question, a highly ahtletic DT who can make a variety of plays on the interior. He too thrives on adrenaline, but not as consistently as Suggs.

Jimmy Kennedy is a mammouth DT who college teams had a difficult time blocking. Of the three, Kennedy gets by more on physical ability than adrenaline. If someone lights a flame on this kid's butt, he could be a perennial All-Pro.

IMO, Suggs is the best gamer of the three. Robertson has the best combination of skills and Kennedy is the most physically intimdating.

Forget the 40 times. The one stat the scouts can't measure: the player's competitive spirit.

 

[Ed B]

Re: Missing the point

Originally posted by Holian
My point was if the 40 time is such a big deal for DeWayne Robertson that it should be a big deal for Terrell Suggs. If the awesome 40 time is not a big deal for Andre Johnson than Robertson's shouldn't be a big deal either.

And you're missing mine.....I don't think it's a big deal for either of them.

Suggs's workout doesn't make him a worse player and Robertson's doesn't make him better.

Why do I get the feeling that the Cards are picking between these exact two guys right about now?

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by Holian
Jeff,

Kind of curious how many University of Kentucky football games you caught this season? University of Kentucky sure is a popular choice (not!!!) in my neck of the woods. I didn't know that the Wildcats were that popular in your state. Be honest, how many games did you see DeWayne Robertson play and you can't count ESPN highlights.

We all (yes you included) get sucked into the draft frenzy. I pulled out my Peterson's NFL Preview guide (2002) and they did a draft preview for 2003 and back in September DeWayne Robertson wasn't even among the top 10 listed defensive tackles.

Not sure but given that Robertson was a junior who was not expected to come out that might be why Peterson's didn't list him?

 

[Walter Mitchell]

Ed B: I agree that it would seem to be a decision between Suggs and Robertson...which may be solved for the Cardinals if one is drafted in the top five. However, my hunch has been that the player Mac and the Cardinal brass like just as much as Suggs and/or Robertson (if not more)is DE/DT Kevin Williams of Oklahoma State. Williams was a man amongst boys at the Senior Bowl, which certainly captured Mac's imagination. Williams' versatility is attractive too, because unlike the other DTs in the draft, Williams has the speed to play DE. As a result, it wouldn't be all that surprising to see the Cardinals try to trade down a few slots with the hope of drafting Williams or if they are worried Williams will be taken in the top ten...which he very may well be...it wouldn't be a total surprise to see the Cardinals stay put at #6 and select Williams there.

In fact, I will go on record right now and predict that Williams will be the first pick. And if DE Chris Kelsay slides to #37, which is entirely possible, write his name on the roster right now. Kelsay is more athletic than KVB and just as feisty...and, most important to Mac, just as dedicated.

Come to think of it, I think the Sporting News is onto something when they tabbed Billy McMullen as the Cardinals' 2nd round pick. McMullen is likely to be on the board at #70.

So there it is:

6. DE/DT Kevin Williams, Oklahoma St.

37. DE Chris Kelsay, Nebraska.

70. WR Billy McMullen, Virginia.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Originally posted by Walter Mitchell
Ed B: I agree that it would seem to be a decision between Suggs and Robertson...which may be solved for the Cardinals if one is drafted in the top five. However, my hunch has been that the player Mac and the Cardinal brass like just as much as Suggs and/or Robertson (if not more)is DE/DT Kevin Williams of Oklahoma State. Williams was a man amongst boys at the Senior Bowl, which certainly captured Mac's imagination. Williams' versatility is attractive too, because unlike the other DTs in the draft, Williams has the speed to play DE. As a result, it wouldn't be all that surprising to see the Cardinals try to trade down a few slots with the hope of drafting Williams or if they are worried Williams will be taken in the top ten...which he very may well be...it wouldn't be a total surprise to see the Cardinals stay put at #6 and select Williams there.

In fact, I will go on record right now and predict that Williams will be the first pick. And if DE Chris Kelsay slides to #37, which is entirely possible, write his name on the roster right now. Kelsay is more athletic than KVB and just as feisty...and, most important to Mac, just as dedicated.

Come to think of it, I think the Sporting News is onto something when they tabbed Billy McMullen as the Cardinals' 2nd round pick. McMullen is likely to be on the board at #70.

So there it is:

6. DE/DT Kevin Williams, Oklahoma St.

37. DE Chris Kelsay, Nebraska.

70. WR Billy McMullen, Virginia.

Actually if we trade with the Jets I could see the Cards landing Kevin Williams DT with the #13 pick in the first round. And then maybe Michael Haynes DE at #22.

 

[Shane]

Originally posted by Walter Mitchell
6. DE/DT Kevin Williams, Oklahoma St.

37. DE Chris Kelsay, Nebraska.

70. WR Billy McMullen, Virginia.

I must say Walter although I think #6 is to high for Williams. I like this draft 100 times better than your dream draft!

 

[kerouac9]

Kevin Williams

Please please please please please please no undersized "Tweeners" at DT!!!!

Please. We got one last year in Wendell, and he was ineffective because he didn't have a two-gap DT next to him. Kevin Williams is 6'5", 304. Dewayne Robertson is 6'1", 317. Jimmy Kennedy is 6"4, 322.

PLEASE DON'T DRAFT A ONE-GAP DT WITH THE #1 PICK

 

[Walter Mitchell]

MadCard: You might be right, but I think the Cardinals are worried that Williams will be taken by Minnesota at #7, Seattle at #11 or St. Louis at #12...which is why it wouldn't be surprising to see the Cardinals draft Williams at #6.

 

[Walter Mitchell]

Shane: I know what your saying...because we are so starved for defensive line help that grabiing a couple of the top prospects in rounds 1-3 seems imperative. I still can't concede drafting any of the defensive players over Leftwich.

Kerouac9: So, what are you saying, we should draft Kennedy? He's a two gap...but he's not a prolific pass rusher. We need pass rushers man!

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by Walter Mitchell
Kerouac9: So, what are you saying, we should draft Kennedy? He's a two gap...but he's not a prolific pass rusher. We need pass rushers man!

Walter, 2-gap DTs will make the pass rushers we have better (Bryant, KVB [to an extent], and Dennis Johnson). This has been written about extensively elsewhere, but the only reason that Warren Sapp is effective is because he has a quality 2-gap DT next to him in Anthony McFarland. Wendell couldn't get after the passer because the guys playing around him were stiffs. The 2 best D-linemen, Bryant and KVB, were constantly double and triple-teamed because offenses didn't have to worry about Bell, Tanner, or Wakefield getting anywhere near the QB until after he'd already had a lengthy dicussion on Kant with his RB in "blitz protection" and unloaded the ball for the first down. The problem isn't that teams are passing all over us, it's that we can't stop anyone through the air or on the ground, and re-building that begins in the middle, with a big, fat, strong, 2-gap DT. If he's also fast, like Robertson, that's a bonus.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by kerouac9
Walter, 2-gap DTs will make the pass rushers we have better (Bryant, KVB [to an extent], and Dennis Johnson). This has been written about extensively elsewhere, but the only reason that Warren Sapp is effective is because he has a quality 2-gap DT next to him in Anthony McFarland.

That is blatantly wrong, in fact Sapp's production has DECLINED since Booger McFarland was drafted.

 

[Walter Mitchell]

Kerouac9: Booger McFarlane is a small, nearly diminutive DT who thrives on leverage and penetration. If anything Sapp is the two gap DT in that tandem.

We already have a widebody DT in Barron Tanner, who has provided some help stopping the run, but he's no factor whatsoever as a pass rusher.

And let's face it, none of the Cardinal defensive linemen were double teamed this past season. There was no reason to...not a pass rushing threat among them.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
That is blatantly wrong, in fact Sapp's production has DECLINED since Booger McFarland was drafted.

Yeah, but that's because Sapp sucks.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by kerouac9
Yeah, but that's because Sapp sucks.

Said the Falcon fan...

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by Walter Mitchell
And let's face it, none of the Cardinal defensive linemen were double teamed this past season. There was no reason to...not a pass rushing threat among them.

That's blatantly untrue. Every passing down, I watched the D-Line to see who was being blocked, and it was always KVB and Bryant who were getting double-teamed, and Bell or Tanner or whomever either pancaked or locked up on one guy.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by kerouac9
Yeah, but that's because Sapp sucks.

I wouldn't say he sucks, but I would say he is the most overrated player in the game and his teammates MeShawn and Alstott are pretty close!

 

[SweetD]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
I wouldn't say he sucks, but I would say he is the most overrated player in the game and his teammates MeShawn and Alstott are pretty close!

Ya and don't for get the Jackson guy who was MVP.
Woopdy DOO!





O what he plays for Cards oops.

 

[Walter Mitchell]

Kerouac9: Warren Sapp has a GREAT philosophy for playing DT. He said last year, "I defend the run on my way to the quarterback." That's the kind of mentality the Cardinal front four has to start employing...and it will be all the more attainable when the DTs up front are aggressive and athletic enough to get a push up front every play.

The only times I saw KVB get double teamed were on those all too frequent occasions when he ran inside slants, abandoning his contain responsibilities. The DTs look like they are getting double teamed by the center and guard at times when there is no inside blitz. It's 5 on 4 inside when the team rushes 4. Whatever double teams you saw were not deliberate...just normal help.