Take Two We're Small

[azirish]

Kurt Thomas is overpaid. If it were not for the luxury tax it would not be so bad, but for a guy who seemed likely to be getting 10 to 12 minutes a game this coming season, $16 million in outlay was awfully pricy.

The problem now is figuring out a way to replace what he brought to Suns for less money. IMHO, the problem is that we are trying to find one guy and should instead be looking for two.

1. POSSIBLE ROTATION PLAYER: The Suns rotation requires somebody who can run, shoot and rebound. He doesn't have to be big, but he has to be very athletic.

2. SOMEONE TO PLAY AGAINST DUNCAN: A few years ago Jerome James of the Sonics had some of his best games in the playoffs against Duncan. He did almost nothing either before or after. This year the best defense against Duncan in the playoffs was by Nene and Zydrunas Ilgauskas; both of whom are big. Last year during the regular season, Dallas beat the Spurs 3 of 4 in part because they have two really big guys including Dampier.

The problem with KT was that he was that he was not ideally suited to either function. He was just too slow for the Suns standard style nor much of a ball handler. At the same time, he's just not tall enough to bother Duncan.

Perhaps the solution is to find two guys rather than to find someone who can fill both functions. It might mean carrying 14 guys, but it could be better than trying to get one guy who does both, but neither all that well.

IMHO, PJ Brown is the best candidate for the 2nd role. However, if he's not available I'd look at video of how other big, slow guys have done against Duncan. These guys are increasingly passe, but would be very useful in the Spurs series.

There may be some athlete with some skills who can perform the 1st role who has no chance against Duncan. My guess is that there will be some guys available by the end of training camp who are better athlete/defenders than Jumaine but have a similar skill set.

With luck, the Suns could actually get better results with two specialists. I'm not sure this is possible, but there just aren't many guys who can play both roles well for any price.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Kurt Thomas is overpaid. If it were not for the luxury tax it would not be so bad, but for a guy who seemed likely to be getting 10 to 12 minutes a game this coming season, $16 million in outlay was awfully pricy.

The problem now is figuring out a way to replace what he brought to Suns for less money. IMHO, the problem is that we are trying to find one guy and should instead be looking for two.

1. POSSIBLE ROTATION PLAYER: The Suns rotation requires somebody who can run, shoot and rebound. He doesn't have to be big, but he has to be very athletic.

2. SOMEONE TO PLAY AGAINST DUNCAN: A few years ago Jerome James of the Sonics had some of his best games in the playoffs against Duncan. He did almost nothing either before or after. This year the best defense against Duncan in the playoffs was by Nene and Zydrunas Ilgauskas; both of whom are big. Last year during the regular season, Dallas beat the Spurs 3 of 4 in part because they have two really big guys including Dampier.

The problem with KT was that he was that he was not ideally suited to either function. He was just too slow for the Suns standard style nor much of a ball handler.

I'm really confused as to why people keep saying this. Was KT a problem when we were kicking ass on offense AND DEFENSE two years ago when he was the starting C on a team that was 45-14 after a 2-6 start? No. It's as if people have just stopped thinking and remembering for themselves and are just swallowing whatever the Suns are feeding them.

You don't need 5 guys tobe running the floor. If anything, having a good rebounder can only help us run MORE not less.

 

[azirish]

I'm really confused as to why people keep saying this. Was KT a problem when we were kicking ass on offense AND DEFENSE two years ago when he was the starting C on a team that was 45-14 after a 2-6 start? No. It's as if people have just stopped thinking and remembering for themselves and are just swallowing whatever the Suns are feeding them.

You don't need 5 guys tobe running the floor. If anything, having a good rebounder can only help us run MORE not less.

You'd think, but D'Antoni kept using him less and less until the Spurs series. In any case, I don't care about KT anymore, just finding guys to fill what he did. If we can't find one guy who fills these functions, then go for two.

Let me a classic example. Mutombo is regularly dismissed because he's too slow with limited offense. But he could be useful in activity #2 even if he has no chance in #1. Mutombo averaged 0.38 rebounds per minute last season (he was fourth in the NBA in rebounds per 48 at 18.2). He's still a pretty good shot blocker (7'2" helps on that) and very strong. Yet no one takes him seriously because he would not be a regular rotation player.

 

[Chaplin]

The only thing wrong with KT had NOTHING to do with his foot speed. It had nothing to do with his shooting. It had nothing to do with his defense. It had ALL to do with how much money he made. THAT was the only thing wrong with KT.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The only thing wrong with KT had NOTHING to do with his foot speed. It had nothing to do with his shooting. It had nothing to do with his defense. It had ALL to do with how much money he made. THAT was the only thing wrong with KT.

totally agree.

 

[azirish]

The only thing wrong with KT had NOTHING to do with his foot speed. It had nothing to do with his shooting. It had nothing to do with his defense. It had ALL to do with how much money he made. THAT was the only thing wrong with KT.

I would not go so far as to say "nothing". Obviously money was the defining reason why he was traded, but it was not the only reason. He played only 18 minutes a game during the regular season and only 11 minutes per game against the Lakers.

Last year during the regular season the minutes were:

Marion 37.6
Bell 37.4
Nash 35.3
Stoudemire 32.8
Barbosa 32.7
Diaw 31.1
Jones 18.1
Thomas 18.0

Diaw played 31 minutes and Thomas played only 18. I'm not sure I understand the reasons, but it seems clear that there was something about Diaw's play that D'Antoni preferred. Considering that Diaw will cost more than Thomas this year, this suggests that there must have been some basketball issue. (Admittedly, it may have been the extra years on Diaw's contract).

Why wasn't KT playing more? I can only guess that D'Antoni wanted more speed and ball handling. You can say he's wrong and I'm inclined to agree. But the minutes allocation had nothing to do with KT's contract size.

 

[Sunsman44]

Kurt Thomas is a fantastic player. He is not, however, a fantastic player on the Suns. For the Sonics, yes. For the Knicks, yes. For the Suns, no.

What the Suns are trying to do is go super small and super fast. Kurt is not small and he is not fast. He is the ideal half-court player who is getting paid 8 million bucks for playing less than 18 minutes per night.

Whenever Kurt was in the game, their speed died. They began to act like a wanna-be defensive team. If you are going to be a wanna-be defensive team, the least you can do is hire a center taller than 6 foot 9 Kurt.

If Suns could not play Kurt more than 18 minutes and seldom use him in the season, what makes you think he or PJ would work again this season? Time for speed. Super speed. Suns did a nice thing of letting Kurt's 8 million go. For what he was getting paid and for the amount of time he was playing, it was not worth it.

azirish:

You say you wanted two big men. One defender and one athletic scorer, correct?

Suns will never sign two players this season. They are only looking for one last 13th piece because of money issues - even if it's for the minimum on both guys.

However, to satisfy your two criteria above, I bring in Skinner (defense) and Croshere (offense) to fit your bill.

Knowing Sarver, he will only bring in one of them. And you can forget PJ. Sources near PJ say he is leaning towards retirement - or at least that's what I heard on a satelite Chicago radio station 670AM.

 

[Covert Rain]

None of this changes the fact that Kurt is still the best big man defender on this team. Period. We are better with him then without him. No scrub big man we pick up is going to be as good or better then Kurt. So at the end of the day if you think he was overpaid or to often hurt or whatever, the team is still worse off without him.

 

[Sunsman44]

None of this changes the fact that Kurt is still the best big man defender on this team. Period. We are better with him then without him. No scrub big man we pick up is going to be as good or better then Kurt. So at the end of the day if you think he was overpaid or to often hurt or whatever, the team is still worse off without him.

Nobody is saying Kurt is a bad defender.

In fact, Kurt may very well be God of all defenders. Heck, call him the greatest defensive player in basketball history if you like.

However, as great as he is, he doesn't fit the Suns system. Why? Ask D'Antoni and he will lecture you on this topic greatly. Simply slowed the team down.

You need to understand that a faster Suns team with worse defense has a better chance of winning than a slower Suns team with great defense.

Kurt was an apple that the Suns were hoping could taste like an orange. Just doesn't work buddy.

Kurt's gone. Let's move on. Bring in another wing or speedster. Don't need slow centers anymore.

Just zap thru the legs of your opponents this season, baby!

 

[Cheesebeef]

Nobody is saying Kurt is a bad defender.

In fact, Kurt may very well be God of all defenders. Heck, call him the greatest defensive player in basketball history if you like.

However, as great as he is, he doesn't fit the Suns system. Why? Ask D'Antoni and he will lecture you on this topic greatly. Simply slowed the team down.

You need to understand that a faster Suns team with worse defense has a better chance of winning than a slower Suns team with great defense.

Kurt was an apple that the Suns were hoping could taste like an orange. Just doesn't work buddy.

Kurt's gone. Let's move on. Bring in another wing or speedster. Don't need slow centers anymore.

Just zap thru the legs of your opponents this season, baby!

I'd like DA to explain to me how Kurt slowed us down in 2005 when we were the best offensive team in the league and amongst the top 5 defensively before he went down.

 

[mathbzh]

I am wondering:
- How long Boris career will last if he must guard bigs?
- Amare is already foul prone, how many time will he be fouled out if we don't have a defensive big next to him?
- We didn't outrun the Spurs. Will we be able to do it without Kurt "slowing us"?

I understand the salary issue 16 millions for Kurt is way to high. But this move make us weak inside and could make Amare completely ineffective in playoff. Even if we keep running faster and faster... we need a defensive big on the bench (even if he is slow). Without this, if Amare or Diaw (or Nash obviously) goes hurt (unfortunately it is very likely given their past) the season is over. Actually if any player in the rotation is hurt we are in big trouble. This is not a very safe management.

 

[dodie53]

live and die with the small ball..

i think DA will stick to that until he gets fired..

 

[azirish]

The Suns rarely played KT and Amare together prior to the Spurs series. KT was used as Amare's backup.

Amare is foul prone, but at least part of it is due to inadequate coaching. This is why a defense oriented coache should be the target of their replacement plan for Iavaroni. Amare's problems at the low post are less important than his attempts to block shots when he should be focused on positioning.

This year Boris will play center rather than SF. He's not strong enough to defend the low post, but he's OK from the weak side. He did suffer from inadequate conditioning last year, but seems to be more focused this off season.

Mostly the Suns double the low post, which is why speed is so crucial. KT could play it straight but still gave up a lot of points to Duncan. Doubling Duncan was a problem because Duncan is a good passer and the Suns don't do a very good job of playing denial on the targets - once again a coaching issue. Most of the season, Marion would simply front the low post guy and create problems for the offense by stealing the entry passes. Against the Spurs this did not work, but it worked against everybody else.

The Spurs present a major problem for the Suns which is why they need to get a solid low post defender. But for the most the season, their standard lineup will simply force opponents to play small to avoid getting run off the court.

 

[Errntknght]

I'm in the camp that believes the Suns shot themselves in the foot in ridding themselves of KT but its now history - so why think in terms of how we replace Kurt. If there is somebody available that can do a decent job against TD, thats the guy we need.

As far as a rotation player, it appears he is going to have to come from among Tucker, Strawberry, Banks, Marks and 'Ski. If they all bomb, in D'Antoni's estimation, he won't be very bothered by going with seven guys, as ridiculous as that is. You'd think he'd learn that this is not a Euroleague, where seven players is enough (barely), but he's one stubborn Italian.

 

[arwillan]

Just zap thru the legs of your opponents this season, baby!

so, d'antoni DOES come to these boards!

 

[dreamcastrocks]

The only thing wrong with KT had NOTHING to do with his foot speed. It had nothing to do with his shooting. It had nothing to do with his defense. It had ALL to do with how much money he made. THAT was the only thing wrong with KT.

 

[Mainstreet]

The only thing wrong with KT had NOTHING to do with his foot speed. It had nothing to do with his shooting. It had nothing to do with his defense. It had ALL to do with how much money he made. THAT was the only thing wrong with KT.

It all starts with the Suns moving Q to New York. The Suns now lose out on (3) first round draft picks plus KT.

 

[TucsonDevil]

Chap and Cheese are correct... To say that KT is gone for ANY other reason than simply budgetary, is inaccurate and disingenuous. KT provided this team with what was needed from his position AND was a good locker room guy (at least he appeared to be).

We couldn't afford him, it's that simple. See "Law of Diminishing Returns"... http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/diminishing returns

 

[Covert Rain]

I'd like DA to explain to me how Kurt slowed us down in 2005 when we were the best offensive team in the league and amongst the top 5 defensively before he went down.

I agree. Kurt DID fit in our system. He didn't hamper us at all. We have seen enough games with Kurt in them to dispel that notion.

I'm in the camp that believes the Suns shot themselves in the foot in ridding themselves of KT but its now history - so why think in terms of how we replace Kurt. If there is somebody available that can do a decent job against TD, thats the guy we need.

As far as a rotation player, it appears he is going to have to come from among Tucker, Strawberry, Banks, Marks and 'Ski. If they all bomb, in D'Antoni's estimation, he won't be very bothered by going with seven guys, as ridiculous as that is. You'd think he'd learn that this is not a Euroleague, where seven players is enough (barely), but he's one stubborn Italian.

I agree but I really don't think there is anything out there. I have read some of the names people keep bringing up and none of those guys get off the bench in the regular season or playoffs on this team. Aside from the team making a trade to make room or bring in a higher caliber big man... the Suns might have to solely depend on small ball next year...which I say doesn't get it done.

The only thing wrong with KT had NOTHING to do with his foot speed. It had nothing to do with his shooting. It had nothing to do with his defense. It had ALL to do with how much money he made. THAT was the only thing wrong with KT.

 

[Joe Mama]

The only thing wrong with KT had NOTHING to do with his foot speed. It had nothing to do with his shooting. It had nothing to do with his defense. It had ALL to do with how much money he made. THAT was the only thing wrong with KT.

That is the post of the week as far as I'm concerned. We can argue all day whether the Phoenix Suns were justified in unloading Kurt Thomas's contract but this stuff about him not fitting the Phoenix Suns style is nothing but spin and BS.

I would not go so far as to say "nothing". Obviously money was the defining reason why he was traded, but it was not the only reason. He played only 18 minutes a game during the regular season and only 11 minutes per game against the Lakers.

Last year during the regular season the minutes were:

Marion 37.6
Bell 37.4
Nash 35.3
Stoudemire 32.8
Barbosa 32.7
Diaw 31.1
Jones 18.1
Thomas 18.0

Diaw played 31 minutes and Thomas played only 18. I'm not sure I understand the reasons, but it seems clear that there was something about Diaw's play that D'Antoni preferred. Considering that Diaw will cost more than Thomas this year, this suggests that there must have been some basketball issue. (Admittedly, it may have been the extra years on Diaw's contract).

Why wasn't KT playing more? I can only guess that D'Antoni wanted more speed and ball handling. You can say he's wrong and I'm inclined to agree. But the minutes allocation had nothing to do with KT's contract size.

Kurt Thomas might have only averaged 18 minutes per game, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it made the team better to play him that little. I have no problem with those minutes because I just wanted him to get some time and stay healthy through the regular season.

however, in the playoffs, and especially against the San Antonio Spurs is team absolutely needed Kurt Thomas. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that without him the Phoenix Suns would have been swept in these past playoffs by San Antonio.

Even with Grant Hill the Phoenix Suns had better find someone to replace Kurt Thomas. If they don't, they better start praying that somebody else takes out San Antonio, or one of the key San Antonio players is injured.

Nobody is saying Kurt is a bad defender.

In fact, Kurt may very well be God of all defenders. Heck, call him the greatest defensive player in basketball history if you like.

However, as great as he is, he doesn't fit the Suns system. Why? Ask D'Antoni and he will lecture you on this topic greatly. Simply slowed the team down.

You need to understand that a faster Suns team with worse defense has a better chance of winning than a slower Suns team with great defense.

Kurt was an apple that the Suns were hoping could taste like an orange. Just doesn't work buddy.

Kurt's gone. Let's move on. Bring in another wing or speedster. Don't need slow centers anymore.

Just zap thru the legs of your opponents this season, baby!

You are just eating it up, but you aren't watching the team. Kurt Thomas doesn't slow down the Phoenix Suns. You don't need all five players running Mach 2 down the basketball court to be a great running team. You definitely need to be able to get stops and actually secure the rebound. That's what Kurt Thomas did. That's what the team struggled to do without him.

I know this will probably spark an argument, but I honestly believe the Phoenix Suns were a better starting 5 once Kurt Thomas got into the flow in 2005-06 than they would have been last season without Kurt Thomas.

With the Phoenix Suns be better if they had a guy who could rebound and play defense like Kurt Thomas but was much more athletic? Of course. Find me that player though. They don't grow on trees, and neither do the players who will adequately replace Kurt Thomas next season.

Joe

 

[Rab]

You are going to see how much value Kurt had to this team come next year, especially when you see how much Boris will struggle playing center behind Amare, and when you see Amare go to the bench with foul trouble. Overpaid? Of course, but no one you find for cheap besides PJ is going to give us what Kurt did.

These team did not suffer offensively with Kurt on the floor. The fact that the front office is trying to sell us the "Kurt slowed us down" garbage doesn't change that fact. In 05-06 when Amare was out, this team was great until Feb when he went down with his ankle injury. The team played .500 ball the rest of the season, and were only staying afloat because they were able to land Tim Thomas to help them out. This season I thought their best starting lineup was with Kurt and Amare playing up front, and going into the playoffs they were 7-0 with that lineup.

A big part of the reason Q was traded was to help Amare on the block with Duncan in the playoffs. There were other reasons, but this was certainly one of them. Now they are going to run the risk of playing that team again without ANY good post defense at all, and we're supposed to expect better results? I just don't see it happening. PJ would help, but I don't see him coming here for some reason.

Also, to me it's hard to ignore all of Steve Kerr's comments about the Suns lack of size and interior defense in the playoffs, and then hearing him try to say just 2 months later that the Kurt was slowing the Suns down, and that they wanted to get faster and smaller.

I don't really care that much for this team going into next season. It's amazing to me that trading Kurt Thomas off all people would leave me in such doubt in regards to championship hopes. Maybe we will get PJ Brown, maybe we won't have to face SA in the playoffs, maybe we make a trade to bring in someone else during the year...I don't know. I hope I'm wrong about all of this.

 

[elindholm]

Come to think of it, why did the Suns sign Richardson in the first place? He played well for them for one year, struggling only a bit in the playoffs. (This board is fond of saying his postseason was awful, but the numbers don't bear that out.) At the time, he seemed somewhat redundant with Johnson, I remember discussion about how he was "good value" for the contract and the Suns landed him as an asset while they were in a position to do so.

Well, he was such good value that it has now cost three first-round picks just to get rid of him. That's starting to look like one of the worst signings of all time.

 

[Chaplin]

Wow, people are giving up on this team faster than I ever thought possible. Must suck to lead such a negative existence.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Wow, people are giving up on this team faster than I ever thought possible. Must suck to lead such a negative existence.

chap, is your entire existence based around the Suns? I'm pretty sure just because people have doubts about the Suns doesn't mean the rest of their entire world's are mired in negative existences and if they are, they probably have mental problems and don't need you piling on.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Rule #1, dont bring real life up on the internet.