Taking a Shaq step back - would like lakers input on this question

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

given these facts:

the suns are the worst rebounding team in the league
opposing big men consistently have a field day against the suns
suns opponents get a huge disparity in offensive rebounds
suns opponents have no fear of driving the lane

if i told you the suns could add a player who:

averages roughly 14 - 16 pts
averages roughly 8 - 9 rebs
averages roughly 2 blocks
shoots roughly 60%

plays around 25 - 30 mins

takes up space in the paint in the form of a legit 7 footer.

helps cut down on the offensive rebounds by not allowing players to literally rebound OVER him.

moves amare to pf

all for marion who is not the most clutch player in the league and may bolt at the end of the year along with a cap-strapping useless player as banks.

wouldn't you pull that trigger? remove the name shaquille o'neal from the equation. if i told you the trade was for a player that would give the suns those numbers and have an effect from a defensive standpoint (won't be backed down in the paint) and rebounding standpoint (won't allow players to rebound over him and will box out larger rebounders), wouldn't you make the trade?

i think everyone is clouded by what shaq can't do anymore, but aren't concentrating on what he can do.

if i told you we were trading for Jared Tomlinson(fictional character), a 15/9/2 7-foot 300lber, everyone would be ecstatic. but b/c it's shaq and we know what he USED to be able to do, and can't do THAT anymore, everyone is calling him washed up. well, he might not be the diesel any longer, but he's still largely an effective player for what he CAN STILL do.

and you just have to consider two other items:

1. shaq's motivations - reprove himself - everytime he's been prodded to do this his teams either make the finals or win the championship, and - upstage kobe bryant - and here he gets the stage again in kobe's division.

2. suns' training staff - not many have mentioned that the suns are reknowned for having a cutting edge top notch training staff. they resurrected mcdyess' career. a dude that was thrown on the trash heap before they got hold of him. by grant hill's statements they worked miracles on him at the beginning of the year. he said he felt 10 years younger and we saw the effects this year, he doesn't look out of place running with the suns and he's dunking regularly, even on some people. if they can work with shaq to have him ready for the playoffs, shaq may surprise more than some here are even expecting.

 

[D-Dogg]

I don't think so man. If you had gotten Camby, I'd be afraid and it would be ON in the pacific.

It isn't what Shaq used to do that he can't do now...it is what he actually DOES do. Yes, those stats are nice, but you are also tossing out Marion's stats too. Which are 15-9-2. You lose a three point shooter (jacker, what have you).

Net effect there, IMO, is a wash.

Then you add Shaq is a lumbering player to the mix, and that D'Antoni is going to have to adjust his precious system to him, it complicates it further.

If Jared Tomlinson could run the floor, I'd say you got a decent deal. If he runs like Shaq and had the same lazy attributes, I'd say the same thing about him that I do Shaq.

Perhaps I'm jaded by Shaq in general and his attitude, but I was very happy the Lakers moved him when they did because of his money grubbing, cancerous tendancies, ego, laziness and declining skills.

People have mentioned Kareem as an older player who was successful...and Wilt too. However, Shaq is not in their caliber. He does not have a finesse move around the paint to score. The Skyhook was unstoppable and it extended Cap's career for years. Shaq's game is predicated on his size and strength...both of which are on the decline. And then with D'Antoni's short bench style, how many minutes is Shaq going to play? In a running offense? He's going to be sucking wind, and Mike D might end up killing him if he tries to put him out there for 35 minutes.

Shaq saves it for the playoffs, and you definitely have improved in the half court set for the playoffs...but in doing so you took away the element of your offense that I think is what makes you dangerous.

Again, if this deal was for Camby I'd be really worried.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Great Post Ouchie.

Now add in that Lebron is coming here in 2010 and maybe this will start to make sense to Laker fans

 

[abomb]

I don't think so man. If you had gotten Camby, I'd be afraid and it would be ON in the pacific.

It isn't what Shaq used to do that he can't do now...it is what he actually DOES do. Yes, those stats are nice, but you are also tossing out Marion's stats too. Which are 15-9-2. You lose a three point shooter (jacker, what have you).

Not just that. Marion averaged 36 minutes this season. What current Suns bench player is going to pick up the extra quarter lost between Marion and Shaq? What is that output going to look like?

 

[abomb]

Now add in that Lebron is coming here in 2010 and maybe this will start to make sense to Laker fans

BTW, LeBron's contract isnt up until 10/11 (player option).

 

[Renz]

If I was a Suns fan and I was told that the team was moving Marion for a 35-year-old C whose scoring average this season is nearly 11 1/2 points below his 25.6 career mark and who had missed 4 of the past 5 weeks with a hip injury, I wouldn't be too happy.

PHX's new center also missed much of the 2006-07 season with a knee injury and finished 2007 with career-lows in games (40), scoring (17.3 points), rebounds (7.4), minutes (28.4) and free-throw percentage (.422).

If you look at the last 1 1/2 seasons, it's hard to argue that O'Neal has anything left in the tank.

 

[SO91]

You sure abomb? He signed a 3 year deal which kicked in this year. They made a big deal about it when he, along with Wade and Bosh signed short term deals instead of the long (5 years I think) that Melo signed.

 

[abomb]

You sure abomb? He signed a 3 year deal which kicked in this year. They made a big deal about it when he, along with Wade and Bosh signed short term deals instead of the long (5 years I think) that Melo signed.

I think hoopshype is right. They are usually right.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/cleveland.htm

 

[SO91]

Right I forgot about the player option, thanks for the clarification. The thought when he signed was he would opt out unless Cleveland improved the team around him.

 

[AsUdUdE]

BTW, LeBron's contract isnt up until 10/11 (player option).

exactly... these players make these player options so they can opt out and get a better deal....

I think we can all assume he will do just that...

Though I think LeBron coming to phoenix is about as likely as Me stealing Chris Cooleys Girlfriend (which I am still holding out for)....

But
i would LOVE to see us get CP3... or Bosh... we can DREAM can't we...

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

If I was a Suns fan and I was told that the team was moving Marion for a 35-year-old C whose scoring average this season is nearly 11 1/2 points below his 25.6 career mark and who had missed 4 of the past 5 weeks with a hip injury, I wouldn't be too happy.

PHX's new center also missed much of the 2006-07 season with a knee injury and finished 2007 with career-lows in games (40), scoring (17.3 points), rebounds (7.4), minutes (28.4) and free-throw percentage (.422).

If you look at the last 1 1/2 seasons, it's hard to argue that O'Neal has anything left in the tank.

lol, you just said he's averaging 17pts 7 1/2 rebs, what are those, 1pt and 1reb less than your savior gasol averages? it doesn't matter what he's producing compared to his past, it only matters what he does produce.

in addition, you can't consider him wash with marion (this is for you donald) as they play different positions and thus have different impacts. d, you correctly point out that we're losing marion's ability to fly, but you neglect to note that we're acquiring a presence in the middle that won't be backed down. we're losing in one area (speed) in which we have some depth (barbs, bell, and hill, and heck, even amare now that he's not the center can all run the break) but gaining in an area in which we had a need (size and strength).

is this the best possible deal in the world? no. but if (and it's a big if) dantoni is not so stubborn to figure out how to most effectively use shaq, i think it may be a real boon.

 

[D-Dogg]

lol, you just said he's averaging 17pts 7 1/2 rebs, what are those, 1pt and 1reb less than your savior gasol averages? it doesn't matter what he's producing compared to his past, it only matters what he does produce.

in addition, you can't consider him wash with marion (this is for you donald) as they play different positions and thus have different impacts. d, you correctly point out that we're losing marion's ability to fly, but you neglect to note that we're acquiring a presence in the middle that won't be backed down. we're losing in one area (speed) in which we have some depth (barbs, bell, and hill, and heck, even amare now that he's not the center can all run the break) but gaining in an area in which we had a need (size and strength).

is this the best possible deal in the world? no. but if (and it's a big if) dantoni is not so stubborn to figure out how to most effectively use shaq, i think it may be a real boon.

There's a chance, yeah. I won't deny it. But the IFs are numerous and HUGE.

And when you mention Gasol, his stats are a MAJOR net addition from what Kwame brought. You can't laugh off that point that Marion and Shaq's stats are similar by saying that Gasol has similar stats. We gave up almost nothing for Pau.


And I do consider the two to be a wash because you lose things and gain things, albeit very different things. I'd be tempted to call it a net loss ONLY because of Mike D. IF you had a different coach, I think you could say, from a playoff perspective, that it would be a net add with Shaq. As it stands, I see it as a wash leaning to a loss because of Mike's stubborness to his system (as I see it as an outsider, of course...you know better than me).

 

[elindholm]

Holy crap, Jared Tomlinson was available?

 

[Renz]

lol, you just said he's averaging 17pts 7 1/2 rebs, what are those, 1pt and 1reb less than your savior gasol averages? it doesn't matter what he's producing compared to his past, it only matters what he does produce.

His numbers are down to about 14 ppg this season from 17 last season. That, plus all the games he's missing due to injury, would greatly concern me. Shaq can't score and rebound if he's on the bench in street clothes.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Holy crap, Jared Tomlinson was available?

lol. i have no idea from whence i pulled that name. i needed something to illustrate my point. take the "shaq" outta the equation and just look at the numbers and what he MIGHT ACTUALLY bring to the suns and it doesn't look quite as bad as what a lot of the lakers fans are banging.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

His numbers are down to about 14 ppg this season from 17 last season. That, plus all the games he's missing due to injury, would greatly concern me. Shaq can't score and rebound if he's on the bench in street clothes.

hasn't gasol missed a ton of games over the past few years? i understand he's younger, but so is mcgrady, and so is wade. missed games are missed games. just has to be healthy for the playoffs.

also, bet that 14pts a game can increase with an increase in talent and . . . STEVE NASH. just a thought.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Or we can look at it this way:

We traded a massive expiring contract for a $40 million dollar salary albatross and got no picks or young players to help out.

That's my whole problem with the deal. We got raked over the coals again.

Say it with me:

3 first round picks, Shawn Marion, Kurt Thomas, James Jones, and Marcus Banks for Shaq and cash.

Good job Kerr.

 

[abomb]

Or we can look at it this way:

We traded a massive expiring contract for a $40 million dollar salary albatross and got no picks or young players to help out.

That's my whole problem with the deal. We got raked over the coals again.

Say it with me:

3 first round picks, Shawn Marion, Kurt Thomas, James Jones, and Marcus Banks for Shaq and cash.

Good job Kerr.

Ugh. When you put it that way.

Shaquille O'Neal for Caron Butler, Lamar Odom, Brian Grant and a first-round draft pick (Jordan Farmar).

Caron Butler and Chucky Atkins for Kwame Brown and Laron Profit.

Kwame Brown, Javaris Critteton and Marc Gasol for Pau Gasol.

Net

Shaquille O'Neal for Jordan Farmar, Lamar Odom and Pau Gasol.

 

[D-Dogg]

Net

Shaquille O'Neal for Jordan Farmar, Lamar Odom and Pau Gasol.

And this one is a shove-in fit, but we missed the playoffs the year after trading him, and in that year we drafted Bynum.

So I give half credit of bynum in the Shaq deal.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Ugh. When you put it that way.

Shaquille O'Neal for Caron Butler, Lamar Odom, Brian Grant and a first-round draft pick (Jordan Farmar).

Caron Butler and Chucky Atkins for Kwame Brown and Laron Profit.

Kwame Brown, Javaris Critteton and Marc Gasol for Pau Gasol.

Net

Shaquille O'Neal for Jordan Farmar, Lamar Odom and Pau Gasol.

that's not exactly accurate. it comes out like this:

shaq, crittendon, marc gasol, and two first round picks for farmer, odom, and gasol and i think a 2nd.

 

[HooverDam]

Or we can look at it this way:

We traded a massive expiring contract for a $40 million dollar salary albatross and got no picks or young players to help out.

That's my whole problem with the deal. We got raked over the coals again.

Say it with me:

3 first round picks, Shawn Marion, Kurt Thomas, James Jones, and Marcus Banks for Shaq and cash.

Good job Kerr.

Exactly. if the Suns got Miamis 1st rounder next year, I'd be able to live with this. Then they'd have both that pick and Atlantas pick to build for an Amare/Barbosa centric future. What do we have to build for the future with now? You better all pray to God they don't make a mistake w/ AtLs pick. They've sold future picks down the river w/ the KT deal.

At least if they had AtL/Miamis picks, then once Nash and Shaq expire, they would either have 2 young guys to build around, or could go after a big free agent class. Now the Suns future COMPLETELY hinges on other teams hopefully not resigning their players .Do you all think LeBron, Wayde, Bosh, et cetera will leave their teams? its very unlikely.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Actually I expect them to sell Atlanta's pick to help pay for Shaq.

 

[LakeShowMan]

I am already on record as saying I think it is a good move for the Suns. The fact is, they were not going to get out of the West as currently constructed, because they would not be able to win a 7 game series against a healthy SA or the Lakers with a healthy Bynum.

If, and that is still a big if, Shaq is moderately healthy, he will shore up a lot of issues. Unfortunately for Suns fans, no one knows, just how much he has left in the tank.

I will say this, if the Lakers are healthy, I think they will pick & roll Shaq to absolute death. The beauty of having two athletic post players is that the Suns will not be able to hide Shaq on defense. They will make him defend away from the paint and move his feet. He had enough problems doing it when he was younger in LA, and considering how many times he has fouled out this year, I assume he is even worse now.

All that said, if Shaq can bring it in the playoffs, the Suns just increased their abaility to win it all. By how much, I have no idea, and honestly I don't know how anyone would know it for sure.

 

[oneofthesedays]

I agree with LakeShowMan, a lot of this is riding on Shaq's health. People need to understand that at the age of 36 he's just not the same player he was 5-10 years ago. He's not even the same player he was 2 years ago.

Being one of the few here who has actually watched Shaq play this year I would say that offensively he can still dominate in the post. When Shaq gets the ball 3ft from the basket it's pretty much an automatic dunk unless you hack him. However, defensively he has gotten significantly worse (and this has to be the main reason why you picked him up!). He moves slow and doesn't challenge shots that aren't right in front of him. Quicker players were able to get by him nearly every single time. On rebounding, if the ball wasn't coming directly towards him he wasn't making an effort.

And now you want to throw Shaq into a run-n-gun offense? He can't play 40+ minutes a game, at best he'll give you 20-30. With all the running he'll have to do I'd put that estimate on the lower end of 20. Couple all of this with the fact that he is severely injury prone this season. There are so many IF's in question here for this to have any sort of positive impact for your team. And nobody here is even questioning what the loss of Marion is going to mean, who I think is arguably your #2 player behind Nash.

This move was made of out of complete desperation and will go down as the single worst trade of the season.

 

[Chaplin]

I am already on record as saying I think it is a good move for the Suns. The fact is, they were not going to get out of the West as currently constructed, because they would not be able to win a 7 game series against a healthy SA or the Lakers with a healthy Bynum.

If, and that is still a big if, Shaq is moderately healthy, he will shore up a lot of issues. Unfortunately for Suns fans, no one knows, just how much he has left in the tank.

I will say this, if the Lakers are healthy, I think they will pick & roll Shaq to absolute death. The beauty of having two athletic post players is that the Suns will not be able to hide Shaq on defense. They will make him defend away from the paint and move his feet. He had enough problems doing it when he was younger in LA, and considering how many times he has fouled out this year, I assume he is even worse now.

All that said, if Shaq can bring it in the playoffs, the Suns just increased their abaility to win it all. By how much, I have no idea, and honestly I don't know how anyone would know it for sure.

Sorry LSM, you know I have nothing but respect for you, but there is one thing you are forgetting in your post here.

Amare