Taking a Shaq step back - would like lakers input on this question

[nowagimp]

And this one is a shove-in fit, but we missed the playoffs the year after trading him, and in that year we drafted Bynum.

So I give half credit of bynum in the Shaq deal.

Biggest laker management *****:

Caron Butler and Chucky Atkins for Kwame Brown and Laron Profit



Caron Butler is one of the top 3's in the NBA, behind lebron, but ahead of melo(caron is a stud defender, melo is a dud defender). To trade him for kwame was just a brain fart. Yet in spite of management stupidity, the lakers are there. They found someone(memphis) to play dumber to their dumb. I still dont know how the league could allow that kind of "tanking" deal, all star forward for a dud backup with a BBall IQ of 10, and some worthless picks.

 

[jbeecham]

I agree with LakeShowMan, a lot of this is riding on Shaq's health. People need to understand that at the age of 36 he's just not the same player he was 5-10 years ago. He's not even the same player he was 2 years ago.

Being one of the few here who has actually watched Shaq play this year I would say that offensively he can still dominate in the post. When Shaq gets the ball 3ft from the basket it's pretty much an automatic dunk unless you hack him. However, defensively he has gotten significantly worse (and this has to be the main reason why you picked him up!). He moves slow and doesn't challenge shots that aren't right in front of him. Quicker players were able to get by him nearly every single time. On rebounding, if the ball wasn't coming directly towards him he wasn't making an effort.

And now you want to throw Shaq into a run-n-gun offense? He can't play 40+ minutes a game, at best he'll give you 20-30. With all the running he'll have to do I'd put that estimate on the lower end of 20. Couple all of this with the fact that he is severely injury prone this season. There are so many IF's in question here for this to have any sort of positive impact for your team. And nobody here is even questioning what the loss of Marion is going to mean, who I think is arguably your #2 player behind Nash.

This move was made of out of complete desperation and will go down as the single worst trade of the season.

The Suns have been a lot less run-and-gun this season and have become much more of a half-court oriented team. With Marion gone, no one on our team averages more than 34.5 mpg (Bell). If Shaq can play 25-30 (averaging 28.5mpg this season) then the other guys can pick up the extra 6-11 minutes that Shawn played more than Shaq will without a problem. The big issue will be Shaq's health. I'm not worried about him not being able to run with the Suns, because we don't run as much and not every guy has to run on the fast break. As long as he's grabbing the rebound and getting the outlet pass out there then he'll be fine.

 

[oneofthesedays]

Nobody here is questioning what the loss of Shawn Marion will mean for the Suns

 

[abomb]

Biggest laker management *****:

Caron Butler and Chucky Atkins for Kwame Brown and Laron Profit



Caron Butler is one of the top 3's in the NBA, behind lebron, but ahead of melo(caron is a stud defender, melo is a dud defender). To trade him for kwame was just a brain fart. Yet in spite of management stupidity, the lakers are there. They found someone(memphis) to play dumber to their dumb. I still dont know how the league could allow that kind of "tanking" deal, all star forward for a dud backup with a BBall IQ of 10, and some worthless picks.

Had you watched any Lakers games, it was clear the Lakers needed a big man and Kwame was a nice, low-risk experiment.

Hindsight is 20/LuolDeng.

 

[LakeShowMan]

Sorry LSM, you know I have nothing but respect for you, but there is one thing you are forgetting in your post here.

Amare

What am I forgetting about Amare?

He can't cover both post guys. Shaq will have to cover either Bynum or Pau. Whichever one he covers the Lakers will run high post pick and rolls with them all game. Hell, Andrew was already getting 4-5 lobs a game in the first two matchups with Amare on him.

Bynum has shown an ability to be very productive in a screen roll, and so has Pau. Shaq has to cover one of them. If he plays the pick and roll like he did on LA, we will have scoring opportunities all day long.

Amare will be able to play help defense, but then that leaves either Bynum or Pau open on the backside. Not to mention Lamar Odom, who is a great offensive rebounder in his own right.

Don't get me wrong, a healthy and motivated Shaq scares me. However, from what I have seen of him lately, and what I know of him by watching every single game he played as a Laker, we will be able to take advantage of some of his weaknesses on D.

 

[LakeShowMan]

Biggest laker management *****:

Caron Butler and Chucky Atkins for Kwame Brown and Laron Profit



Caron Butler is one of the top 3's in the NBA, behind lebron, but ahead of melo(caron is a stud defender, melo is a dud defender). To trade him for kwame was just a brain fart. Yet in spite of management stupidity, the lakers are there. They found someone(memphis) to play dumber to their dumb. I still dont know how the league could allow that kind of "tanking" deal, all star forward for a dud backup with a BBall IQ of 10, and some worthless picks.

I'll say this. If we had Caron Butler and was offered Pau Gasol, I would have made that trade as well.

Did that original trade set the Lakers back a little? Yes. However, I am quite happy with the way it turned out.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Exactly. if the Suns got Miamis 1st rounder next year, I'd be able to live with this. Then they'd have both that pick and Atlantas pick to build for an Amare/Barbosa centric future. What do we have to build for the future with now? You better all pray to God they don't make a mistake w/ AtLs pick. They've sold future picks down the river w/ the KT deal.

At least if they had AtL/Miamis picks, then once Nash and Shaq expire, they would either have 2 young guys to build around, or could go after a big free agent class. Now the Suns future COMPLETELY hinges on other teams hopefully not resigning their players .Do you all think LeBron, Wayde, Bosh, et cetera will leave their teams? its very unlikely.

if the trade involved picks it wouldn't be one-sided. we'd never end up with BOTH the ATL and MIA picks. it would be ATL for the MIA pick. regardless, at the end of this run we'll have amare, barbs, and whatever we get with the ATL pick, then a ton of cap room to go shopping, and everything i've heard is that bron and wade will likely leave if their teams are unable to successfully build around them.

 

[HooverDam]

if the trade involved picks it wouldn't be one-sided. we'd never end up with BOTH the ATL and MIA picks. it would be ATL for the MIA pick. regardless, at the end of this run we'll have amare, barbs, and whatever we get with the ATL pick, then a ton of cap room to go shopping, and everything i've heard is that bron and wade will likely leave if their teams are unable to successfully build around them.

Even swapping picks would make me happy. That Atl pick is looking less and less appetizing. While this draft seems like its got a lot at the top, I don't know how deep it is. I just it wasn't that Kerr didn't have the balls to insist on swapping picks.

 

[Ballamania]

IMO, i think this could be a good movie ONLY if shaq can play decent minutes. shawn was shawn as always but shawn didnt help the suns advance to conference championships. he helped win a lot of regular season games no doubt, but the suns have been criticized for not winning anything other than the division. a different approach had to be taken at some point. what you lose with marion is what you gain with shaq.

excitement-marion
energy-marion championship experience-shaq
speed-marion shot blocking-shaq
steals-marion intimidation-shaq
defending 3-4 positions-marion post defense-shaq
hustle-marion leadership-shaq
ability to draw double teams-shaq


TO ME it boils down to which of these groups of things are more important to the suns chance at a title. they all are important but which ones are THE MOST important to playoff success.