Taking emotion out of it...

[TucsonDevil]

1. Suns lost this game due to poor shooting by Bell, LB and Nash. If either one of the three made a couple of more shots behind the arc, it would have been enough to put them over the top.

2. Manu is just a smart player. He is a gamer, and as much as I hate to play against him, I respect him. He had a horrible first half, and made some big shots in the second to help them pull out the win. How he continues to miss the All-Star team is a mystery to me - Shawn Marion thinks he got snubbed, Manu is the second best player on the Spurs 3-time championship team... zero appearances.

3. LB needs to learn one thing - against the Spurs, he can't drive into the lane. They know what he is about, and he gets into trouble nearly every time. LB is a talented, fast guard, however he still lacks the court vision and maturity to play big against tough defense. Unless the lane is open, I wish they would make it a rule for him not to cross into the paint with the ball.

4. Nash is still clutch. I really thought after his 3-pt shot with 2 min to go we would be able to hang onto the lead. He has a superstar quality that the team relies on in big games. Marion and Amare could learn a lot from Nash. I trust Nash to make the right plays - and so do the Spurs. That is why you see Bowen in his shorts in the last 3 min of each game.

5. I was disappointed in Grant Hill's lack of production. He seemed to be the missing piece to beat the Spurs. When the pace slowed down in the past, we needed a person to be able to create their own shot besides Nash. Grant did that a couple of times, but not as much as I would have liked to have seen. Instead, the ball stayed in LBs hands during those stretches. That was disappointing.

6. Why isn't Sean Marks seeing floor time in this type of game? Oberto saw 18+ min - surely Marks can negate his length and outperform him on the boards. Right? Isn't that was D'Antoni and Kerr promised this off season?

All-in-all, just a poor shooting night against the best team in the league (I don't care what the records say). Phoenix played good defense at times, but the Spurs also missed open shots. If the 'undersized' Suns hope to beat the Spurs in 7 games, the backcourt must shoot at least 40% from 3-pt land, and 48%+ for all players.

 

[Rab]

1. Suns lost this game due to poor shooting by Bell, LB and Nash. If either one of the three made a couple of more shots behind the arc, it would have been enough to put them over the top.

Agreed. I didn't really think SA played that well defensively. We just didn't shoot well at all. Barbosa was awful, and he really needs to learn how to adjust to playing the Sterns swarming inside defense. They seem to funnel him all the time.

2. Manu is just a smart player. He is a gamer, and as much as I hate to play against him, I respect him. He had a horrible first half, and made some big shots in the second to help them pull out the win. How he continues to miss the All-Star team is a mystery to me - Shawn Marion thinks he got snubbed, Manu is the second best player on the Spurs 3-time championship team... zero appearances.

Manu is a gamer, but I can't really say I totally respect his game. The lengths he'll go to to get a foul is beyond infuriating. Tonight he didn't even get bumped yet crumpled to the ground holding his knee to get the call. Then moments later, he's running around like nothing ever happened. I can't respect players who will resort to faking injuries. Bell flops, but rarely will he lay there and pretend he's hurt. As far as Manu and ASG's go, he did make the 04-05 game I believe, and the previous two years he's struggled with injury before turning it on later in the year. He didn't really earn a spot over the other west guards IMO.

3. LB needs to learn one thing - against the Spurs, he can't drive into the lane. They know what he is about, and he gets into trouble nearly every time. LB is a talented, fast guard, however he still lacks the court vision and maturity to play big against tough defense. Unless the lane is open, I wish they would make it a rule for him not to cross into the paint with the ball.

Agreed. Like I said earlier, they funnel LB to middle of the floor and their bigs are great at contesting his drives. He needs to learn how to pass out of trouble. He draws enough attention that he should be able to find an open passing lane to a wing or cutter.

4. Nash is still clutch. I really thought after his 3-pt shot with 2 min to go we would be able to hang onto the lead. He has a superstar quality that the team relies on in big games. Marion and Amare could learn a lot from Nash. I trust Nash to make the right plays - and so do the Spurs. That is why you see Bowen in his shorts in the last 3 min of each game.

We kind of saw the best/worst of both worlds from Nash tonight. That 3 he hit was huge, but he did have two bad turnovers in the last minute of the game. But, I'd want the ball in his hands everytime in close games like this.

5. I was disappointed in Grant Hill's lack of production. He seemed to be the missing piece to beat the Spurs. When the pace slowed down in the past, we needed a person to be able to create their own shot besides Nash. Grant did that a couple of times, but not as much as I would have liked to have seen. Instead, the ball stayed in LBs hands during those stretches. That was disappointing.

He still has some rust on him from missing those couple weeks IMO. I know they want to bring him back slowly, and they really could've used him at 100% tonight to help facilitate and create for others or himself. I still don't know why DA lets LB play so much PG when he and Hill are on the floor together without Nash.

 

[mojorizen7]

Agreed on Hill. He needs to be on the floor to help Nash create. I'm also of the opinion that he's not at or near 100% yet.
Against the STERNS and other big,slow it down teams,, Barbosa needs to re-aquaint himself with his mid-range game and as was said, become more aware of where his teammates are when he's going head first in a sea of 7 footers just waiting for him.
I'm not sure about Marks seeing any time against the SPURS. I'd like to see him get a shot at least but i'm afraid he'd get eaten up even by the likes of Umberto.

 

[cly2tw]

I watched on a bad feed from raptorsnation.net and missed a lot of actions. But from what I saw, several issues contributed to the loss, not hitting the open jumpers is not really a concern.

1. Nash and LB rushed to quick shots or bonehead drives, say about 5 times each. That's 10 possessions.

2. Amare was frenquently covered by Manu or another small player, and I guess Diaw too. But we couldn't exploit it, an issue that's been there all the time but we never seemed to have worked on it consistently. (Or is Amare really too dumb to learn it?)

3. Most importantly, at crunch time, we only have the Nash-Amare p&r, which proved to be turnover-prone despite its near perfection. Nash had to try/force those risky passes in the paint, cos we didn't have, weren't given, viable alternatives. (Sure, when it succeeds we watch those emphatic finishes Amare provided us. But the odd is not always good enough, depending on game situations.)

Missed FT or open jumpers are normal risk of fluctuation in the game. But the above issues are something we could work on and improve.

One thing is for sure. The Spurs seem to be capable of forcing their style on us in the games. Often, some 1-on-1 offense is all what's left out there, particularly late in the game. Actually, middle of the 4th we got a couple good 1-on-1 scores with Hill. But after that, we lived and died with Nash-Amare. And Bowen like in most 4th q., defended Nash with an extreme positioning to the right, so that the pick would not result in an immediate good chance. It's a time when we needed some other ways to get an open shot, but there were no.

Also, double-teaming TD got us exactly where we were without KT manning him up in single coverage.

If we don't improve, we'd be again at a low odd to win in a series vs. them.

 

[mojorizen7]

Also, double-teaming TD got us exactly where we were without KT manning him up in single coverage.

Bingo.
Although i've got to give some credit to Boris for showing some nuts on defense tonite.

 

[msdundee]

Two comments from Coro's article:

"Steve Nash had two turnovers down the stretch, and Amaré Stoudemire missed a free throw to tie the score with 8.7 seconds to go after missing two others with 2:01 go.............

"I normally make those type of free throws," Stoudemire said. "Just fell short tonight. No biggie."

"We just didn't have a great energy about us offensively and I don't know why," Nash said. "We just never broke into our rhythm. It happens from time to time, but it's disappointing because we could have won regardless. At the end of the games, we made some mistakes when it counted most."

The Spurs are good at closing out games in the fourth, even when they have to come from behind. The Suns shots weren't falling -- including the open looks -- and the problem got contagious in the second half. Nash's two turnovers were costly. Nobody defends free throws.

Reading the media quotes can lead to misinterpretation, granted. But Nash's "WE made some mistakes when it counted most" sounds like a team captain sharing the responsibility for a meltdown. Amare's "No biggie" sounds more like the title of this thread.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Amare also missed 2 free throws with about 2 minutes to go.

I had a feeling Amare was going to miss that FT.

On Nash's 3 point attempt, he faded to far causing his shot to hit the back of the rim.

 

[Louis]

I finally got to a watch a Suns game for what seems like ages.

I completely forgot Shawn Marion was on the team in that 2nd half.

Amare had a couple of idiotic fouls. Ticky tack type stuff that he needs to overcome.

I was very disappointed that Skinner didn't play more. This was one of those games where it would've been great to see Banks or Strawberry out there on JV.

The Spurs have the best bench in the NBA. Everybody knows what they are supposed to do. And most importantly they are given that chance. I've never heard Pop say that he is happy with the Spurs that no other moves (trades or rotation) are going to be made. And to top it off, Mighty Mouse will be taking the reins.

 

[TucsonDevil]

This question stemming from this game is this: Did the Suns just play poorly, or did the Spurs dictate their poor play?

If the first part is correct, then there is no need to panic. A few practice sessions to develop a couple of areas, and the Suns will be fine. However, if the second part is correct, a major change needs to occur - either in personnel or philosophy.

I think it is an even 40/60 split. The Spurs know how to play the Suns and do it very effectively. Most teams in the NBA don't have the stones to do it, certainly the Mavs lack the execution. I think the Spurs approach to the Suns is simple - keep it close, don't let them run away too much. By the time it reaches the 3rd quarter, we need to be within striking distance. Then in the last 2-4 min of the game, Bowen plays Nash (don't let him breath), the rest pack the lane. This is a very effective strategy for several reasons. The Suns don't have another creator than Nash. The Suns are afraid of physical contact and just look for whistles. The Spurs have large men down low to contest shots and grab all rebounds...

However, the biggest part is this... Popp has learned that the refs swallow their whistles at the end of games in order to preserve the idea of 'no referee influenced outcomes'. Therefore, Bowen can grab and hold Nash with few repercussions. Tim Duncan can hip-check players (like he did last night at the 2 min mark to Amare on his dunk) or have one arm on the hip pushing while trying to block with the other. And finally, the other bigs can molest any incoming player since TD is behind them protecting the basket. The refs are going to let it go. It works to perfection, and three rings.

Got to hand it to them, they are a good team. They know their strengths, and better yet, they know the Suns weaknesses.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

However, the biggest part is this... Popp has learned that the refs swallow their whistles at the end of games in order to preserve the idea of 'no referee influenced outcomes'. Therefore, Bowen can grab and hold Nash with few repercussions. Tim Duncan can hip-check players (like he did last night at the 2 min mark to Amare on his dunk) or have one arm on the hip pushing while trying to block with the other. And finally, the other bigs can molest any incoming player since TD is behind them protecting the basket. The refs are going to let it go. It works to perfection, and three rings.

Got to hand it to them, they are a good team. They know their strengths, and better yet, they know the Suns weaknesses.

Very good point.

 

[Chaplin]

I don't post much here anymore, but there are a few things to consider...

1) The Suns didn't really lose this game to the Spurs, they lost this game to themselves--when an entire team can't shoot, there's little you can do. Some of it can be attributed to the Spurs defense, but when Raja goes 0/7 before hitting his first 3 pointer, you can't blame that solely on the defense of Manu Ginobili.

2) The Shawn Marion thing was strange, because I remember a HUGE stretch of the 3rd quarter where DA never even inserted him into the lineup. I'm not as big a critic of him as everyone else here, but that really was confusing to me.

3) As for credit, I think a TON has to go to Boris Diaw, who did an AMAZING job on Tim Duncan. Our doubles helped immensely, but there were very few instances where Duncan got right next to the rim before receiving the pass.

4) I didn't have a lot of problems with the officiating last night--it was a rough game, but we appeared to handle it well, and our defense was stellar--much better than we usually play.

5) All in all, the Suns had chances for 40 minutes to put this team away, but their shots wouldn't fall. 40 minutes against the Spurs. That's a HUGE amount of time to have none of your shots falling, and it hurt us. But keep in mind, regardless of the opponent, that rarely, if ever, happens.

 

[Covert Rain]

Bottom line is that we lost to the Spurs AGAIN. I think this team bottom line has the mental edge on us. There bench is about to get deeper with DS and they are the defending champs.

We can say we lost it or they took it blah blah blah. Bottom line is that I am just not convinced we can beat the Spurs in a 7 game series. They will slow things down. They will probably hip check, flop, complain and do all the other things we always see from them.

I am convinced more then ever that unless we make a trade, there is no way we make it through the West to the finals.

 

[elindholm]

You can't blame the officiating when Stoudemire gacks three critical free throws in the final two minutes. All the zebras can do is call fouls; they can't actually put the ball in the basket.

I saw most of the second half and liked the Suns' defensive energy and commitment to defensive rebounding. It didn't look to me like they were missing easy shots, but instead that they just weren't getting squat out of their so-called "system." If these two teams played again I wouldn't expect the Suns to score many more points, because the Spurs know how to take away all of their easy chances. The fact that the Suns held their own defensively is promising, I guess, but it's pretty hard to envision the Suns winning four out of seven games when the scores are in the 80s.

 

[Proteus]

I saw most of the second half and liked the Suns' defensive energy and commitment to defensive rebounding. It didn't look to me like they were missing easy shots, but instead that they just weren't getting squat out of their so-called "system." If these two teams played again I wouldn't expect the Suns to score many more points, because the Spurs know how to take away all of their easy chances. The fact that the Suns held their own defensively is promising, I guess, but it's pretty hard to envision the Suns winning four out of seven games when the scores are in the 80s.

We frequently do a lot better offensively against the Spurs than last night. We scored 100 or more points in 5 of the 6 playoff games against the Spurs last year. We also shot 46% or better from the field in 5 of the 6 games and 48% or better in 4 of the 6 games.

I can't believe Amare referred to missing those free throws as "no biggie". Ugh.

 

[nashman]

^ Yeah that! We usually don't shoot that bad ever! No one but Marion seemed to be on last night and even his second half disappeared. The fact the we only lost by one possesion when we shot as atrociously as we did is encouraging.

 

[Chaplin]

Bottom line is that we lost to the Spurs AGAIN. I think this team bottom line has the mental edge on us. There bench is about to get deeper with DS and they are the defending champs.

We can say we lost it or they took it blah blah blah. Bottom line is that I am just not convinced we can beat the Spurs in a 7 game series. They will slow things down. They will probably hip check, flop, complain and do all the other things we always see from them.

I am convinced more then ever that unless we make a trade, there is no way we make it through the West to the finals.

This is alarmist. Why? Because right now, the record is 1-1 this season. That is no way to gauge how we do against them. If it was 2-0 in favor of the Spurs, then yes, you have a beef. We missed shots. Period. The Spurs defense is good, but we beat ourselves by not being able to hit anything.

 

[Chaplin]

We frequently do a lot better offensively against the Spurs than last night. We scored 100 or more points in 5 of the 6 playoff games against the Spurs last year. We also shot 46% or better from the field in 5 of the 6 games and 48% or better in 4 of the 6 games.

I can't believe Amare referred to missing those free throws as "no biggie". Ugh.

What's he supposed to do? Dwell on them going into the next game? Gimme a break. The entire season doesn't revolve around a regular season game against the Spurs at the end of January.

 

[elindholm]

If it was 2-0 in favor of the Spurs, then yes, you have a beef.

Maybe, but you know full well that even if it were 2-0, most of this board would be saying "It's only one game" and "All that matters is the playoffs."

The bottom line is that the koolaid drinkers throw out any evidence that is inconvenient for them. Every bad loss is "only one game," and every win is proof that the team is on the right track.

 

[nowagimp]

However, the biggest part is this... Popp has learned that the refs swallow their whistles at the end of games in order to preserve the idea of 'no referee influenced outcomes'. Therefore, Bowen can grab and hold Nash with few repercussions. Tim Duncan can hip-check players (like he did last night at the 2 min mark to Amare on his dunk) or have one arm on the hip pushing while trying to block with the other. And finally, the other bigs can molest any incoming player since TD is behind them protecting the basket. The refs are going to let it go. It works to perfection, and three rings.

The spurs work the refs to perfection. Duncans 4th foul was protested vehemently with pops almost getting a T and duncan protesting that his arms were straight up. It actually held the game up and made a spectacle of the whole thing. Well the replay showed that Duncan did NOT have his arms straight up and made contact with his forearms while angling them towards amare, trying for the block. That was the last foul called on TD until a few seconds left in the game, in spite of substantial body contact within the circle on amare in the next possession. In another manipulation, Manu rolled his ankle and got a foul called on bell for tripping, he rolled around on the floor like he'd been fouled. the replay showed no trip, just an ankle roll when he made a cut. That play should have been a spurs turnover. Manu also had his shot blocked cleanly driving the lane and faked a foul that the refs ate up in the 4th. there was not contact at all(all ball) until the ball was cleanly out of his grasp,and that contact was initiated by manu AFTER he lost the ball. The spurs are a good team that executes well, and perhaps their most impressive skill last night was getting calls that should not have been made, or getting away with fouls that should have been called. Not much has changed there. I do not recall a team in recent memory that consistently gets the better of the officiating moreso than these spurs. Perhaps all Pops intelligence training comes in handy in this type of subterfuge(ref brainwashing).


Amare:C+
Amare passed up an open jumper inside the top of the circle at the end and gave Nash the ball with no time on the clock. I was disappointed in amares game last night. He didnt succeed in establishing position for an entry pass, even against smaller players. He passed up open shots with time winding down, and of course he missed critical foul shots at the end.

shawn: B
Without shawn marion the suns arent even in that game, 21/10 with 5 steals and numerous tipped passes as well as the best help D on TD.

the shooters outside Raja: D+
Amare was not alone and a bigger culprit was the suns not hitting open perimeter shots all game long. Contested shots are one thing, but you must hit your open shots or at least 50% of them when playing a defensive game against a competitive contender. Barbosa as stated in other posts was awful with the turnovers on the blind drives. If the suns insist on having him penetrate like that, maybe the suns should plan on having somebody follow leo to the rack so he can pass back out more easily without the TO instead of everyone waiting on the 3 pt line. Perhaps an amare trailer play would punish the collapsing defense around leo.

Raja: C+ played very good defrense against manu, so he did hustle even if he didnt hit his shots.

Boris: B
The encouraging thing was that Boris Diaw did a better job on TD than any sun since KT, certainly better than Shawn marion or amare has ever done. TD had 16 points on 16 shots with the last of them coming against amare, not boris. Boris hustled and fought for position with TD, frequently preventing him from getting to his favorite spots to receive an entry pass. I suspect next game against the spurs Boris will start the game on TD, which should prevent amare from getting into foul trouble early and having sit down. I think it hurt Boris' offensive game, all the banging, but he was a man on TD out there with decent position defense.

 

[Chaplin]

Maybe, but you know full well that even if it were 2-0, most of this board would be saying "It's only one game" and "All that matters is the playoffs."

The bottom line is that the koolaid drinkers throw out any evidence that is inconvenient for them. Every bad loss is "only one game," and every win is proof that the team is on the right track.

"Most of this board"? Are you kidding, Eric? 90% of this board thinks the team sucks, yourself included. And you're putting these labels on people as "koolaid" drinkers simply because they don't agree with your alarmist and negative views.

 

[Rab]

I am not ready to go doom and gloom on this loss. I have on other losses, but I don't think this game warrants it. Yes, in the end, it's another loss to the Spurs, and yes, I still think the Spurs are going to be the toughest obstacle in the Suns way, but I was very pleased with the defensive effort last night. I was impressed with Boris' man coverage on Duncan. I was very happy with how Raja stuck with Manu. I was overall happy with the defensive rotations of Duncan double teams (though this could much harder to pull off when Parker is back).

We just plain didn't hit shots, and there were times where we overpassed a lot. I don't think the Spurs defense was stellar like it usually is against us. I would've liked to have seen a little more Amare in the last 6 minutes. Duncan was having a tough time with him in the 4th, either getting to the hoop, or drawing fouls on him. I am actually pleased with the effort, and I do think it's something they can build on, and learn from. We were good defensively, and we did a decent job on the boards.

We need to remember that even though we lost this game at home, we beat them in their gym as well, so is it really that bad?

 

[jag7211]

3. Manu has been an all-star.

6. Sean Marks isnt the answer to your problems with the spurs...lets be honest here...

BTW: The loss of KT was huge...i still can't figure out why you guys got rid of someone that could go 1v1 with Tim on the D-end like he did.

 

[Rab]

3. Manu has been an all-star.

6. Sean Marks isnt the answer to your problems with the spurs...lets be honest here...

BTW: The loss of KT was huge...i still can't figure out why you guys got rid of someone that could go 1v1 with Tim on the D-end like he did.

$$$$

 

[Hat]

3. Manu has been an all-star.

6. Sean Marks isnt the answer to your problems with the spurs...lets be honest here...

BTW: The loss of KT was huge...i still can't figure out why you guys got rid of someone that could go 1v1 with Tim on the D-end like he did.

because the owner is cheap

 

[nowagimp]

because the owner is cheap

Sarver would have wasted that money for nothing. Since the lakers just acquired gasol, none of that matters now. The lakers weak spot, kwame , is gone and a 20ppg 7' PF who knows how to dish is in his place. When they get bynum back, the suns will look like a middle school team in size. The good thing is that I dont have to worry about whether the suns are talented enough to win anymore, they arent. Time to plan some outdoor activities, and prepare for the super bowl and march madness, the two sporting events of interest left in the near future.