Tale of the Tape

[john h]

TALE OF THE TAPE
Thomas
Height 6-7
Weight 311
40 time 4.92
Short shuttle 4.85
3-cone 7.88
Vertical 33"
Broad jump 9'2"
Arm 32½"
Hand 9¾"
225lb bench 28 reps

Brown
Height 6-5
Weight 328
40 time 5.32
Short shuttle 4.82
3-cone 7.81
Vertical 28.5"
Broad jump 8'7"
Arm 34 3/8"
Hand 10¼"
225lb bench 31 reps

PROS
Thomas: Thomas, a tight end and defensive end at the start of his career, grades out as an above-average athlete for the position. However, his stock rose as he was able to increase his weight by nearly 20 pounds while rehabbing from a knee injury that occurred at the Capital One Bowl in 2006. His added strength helped him become a more effective blocker at the point of attack. His strong hands allow him to create a violent punch off the snap, but his signature trademarks are his footwork and athleticism, which allow him to adjust and handle edge pass rushers. For a player of his stature, he is able to stay low and fires off the ball with a good amount of power, though he could stand to get more consistent in this area. A very bright guy in the classroom, he works as hard in the film room as he does in the weight room. He plays with both patience and aggression as he does not get penalized and is rarely beaten with the same move. His makeup and all-around skill level gives him a very attractive package for a team with a high draft choice as he would appear to be an extremely "safe" choice. Brown: Few scouts would argue that when Brown plays his "A" game, he is a force to be reckoned with as both a drive blocker and when handling most outside pass rushers. His natural size makes him a hard guy to beat in one-on-one situations. He also displays good footwork and blocking downfield, but needs to keep a close eye on his weight and conditioning. He shows the flexibility to stay with defenders that use a lot of stunts and twists, though he's still more of a mauler type. Although he played the majority of his college downs on the left side, his size and aggressiveness could allow for an initial move to the right side for a team that has a veteran starting left tackle. He’s a smart kid who graduated in 3½ years, so he should be able to learn to cut down on the mental mistakes that led to four pre-snap penalties as a senior.
CONS
Thomas: Thomas has two things working against him right now. First, the Detroit Lions and Arizona Cardinals, who were thought to be top contenders for his services, have made free agent moves along the offensive line. Second, he does not have really long arms (32 ½ inches) which, when compared to a similar-sized tackle like Doug Free (36") or even an under-sized guard/center like Josh Beekman (32"), raises concerns. Although a few inches seem minor, a shorter-armed tackle can struggle with allowing pass rushers to get into his body. The fact that he is a naturally right-handed person, which is not his outside or lead hand when lined up at left tackle, is a further cause of concern. He made much better use of his hands as a senior, but that will be a critical area in terms of creating a consistent jolt/impact. His right knee injury passed all postseason examinations, so that does not seem to be a real issue with teams. Brown: His detractors see a bit of an underachiever who may never live up to the vast natural ability he possesses. This stems from the fact that he takes off too many plays, gets high in his stance off the snap and fails to produce ideal results when there is a lapse in concentration on the field. He had a total of seven penalties the past two seasons. He also missed a pair of games after suffering a torn meniscus in his left knee, the same knee that he sprained two years earlier, and was out of shape for several more weeks after his return last season. There are still some that feel he could eventually need a cleanout procedure on that knee. On the field, he can over-extend and get sloppy with his technique when he starts to wear down, so playing for an up-tempo position coach that is more of a motivator than pacifier would really help aid in the development of his game. The wear and tear of the NFL concerns me some when evaluating his overall potential as he seems vulnerable to a slow return from an injury and showing up to training camp at 350 one year.
CONCLUSION
Thomas: Though he still has a chance to go in the top 5, he could also become a victim of circumstances. He could be hurt by the fact that this draft features two potential franchise signal callers (JaMarcus Russell and Brady Quinn) and a top-overall choice that could be a receiver (Calvin Johnson). Furthermore, the struggles of recent highly touted tackle prospects Jordan Gross and Robert Gallery hurt Thomas' chances of going in the top 3. There is a group of evaluators that believe Thomas compares more with an Adam Meadows or Jeff Backus in their prime than a Jonathan Ogden. In fact, there's talk that Central Michigan's Joe Staley has impressed evaluators so much that some teams have explored the idea of dropping down or trading up for him instead of using a high pick on Thomas. Brown: Brown impressed teams by showing up at the Senior Bowl, while Thomas opted to pass on that event. He has closed the gap on some teams' draft boards, but also has Staley breathing down his neck for the No. 2 ranking. There are other teams that see Brown strictly as a mauler-type right tackle and fail to believe he will ever reach his full potential. However, should the light bulb ever go to full wattage, he has the natural skill level to become similar to young All-Pro tackle Jamaal Brown. If not, he will play up and down for a team that has likely expended a high pick for his services.


John Murphy's 6th annual NFL Draft Bible is now available. Learn more at www.nfldraftbible.blogspot.com

John Murphy is Yahoo! Sports' NFL personnel and college prospect evaluator. Murphy's sixth annual NFL Draft Bible is now available. Learn more at www.nfldraftbible.blogspot.com.

Updated on

 

[john h]

TALE OF THE TAPE
Thomas
Height 6-7
Weight 311
40 time 4.92
Short shuttle 4.85
3-cone 7.88
Vertical 33"
Broad jump 9'2"
Arm 32½"
Hand 9¾"
225lb bench 28 reps

Brown
Height 6-5
Weight 328
40 time 5.32
Short shuttle 4.82
3-cone 7.81
Vertical 28.5"
Broad jump 8'7"
Arm 34 3/8"
Hand 10¼"
225lb bench 31 reps

PROS
Thomas: Thomas, a tight end and defensive end at the start of his career, grades out as an above-average athlete for the position. However, his stock rose as he was able to increase his weight by nearly 20 pounds while rehabbing from a knee injury that occurred at the Capital One Bowl in 2006. His added strength helped him become a more effective blocker at the point of attack. His strong hands allow him to create a violent punch off the snap, but his signature trademarks are his footwork and athleticism, which allow him to adjust and handle edge pass rushers. For a player of his stature, he is able to stay low and fires off the ball with a good amount of power, though he could stand to get more consistent in this area. A very bright guy in the classroom, he works as hard in the film room as he does in the weight room. He plays with both patience and aggression as he does not get penalized and is rarely beaten with the same move. His makeup and all-around skill level gives him a very attractive package for a team with a high draft choice as he would appear to be an extremely "safe" choice. Brown: Few scouts would argue that when Brown plays his "A" game, he is a force to be reckoned with as both a drive blocker and when handling most outside pass rushers. His natural size makes him a hard guy to beat in one-on-one situations. He also displays good footwork and blocking downfield, but needs to keep a close eye on his weight and conditioning. He shows the flexibility to stay with defenders that use a lot of stunts and twists, though he's still more of a mauler type. Although he played the majority of his college downs on the left side, his size and aggressiveness could allow for an initial move to the right side for a team that has a veteran starting left tackle. He’s a smart kid who graduated in 3½ years, so he should be able to learn to cut down on the mental mistakes that led to four pre-snap penalties as a senior.
CONS
Thomas: Thomas has two things working against him right now. First, the Detroit Lions and Arizona Cardinals, who were thought to be top contenders for his services, have made free agent moves along the offensive line. Second, he does not have really long arms (32 ½ inches) which, when compared to a similar-sized tackle like Doug Free (36") or even an under-sized guard/center like Josh Beekman (32"), raises concerns. Although a few inches seem minor, a shorter-armed tackle can struggle with allowing pass rushers to get into his body. The fact that he is a naturally right-handed person, which is not his outside or lead hand when lined up at left tackle, is a further cause of concern. He made much better use of his hands as a senior, but that will be a critical area in terms of creating a consistent jolt/impact. His right knee injury passed all postseason examinations, so that does not seem to be a real issue with teams. Brown: His detractors see a bit of an underachiever who may never live up to the vast natural ability he possesses. This stems from the fact that he takes off too many plays, gets high in his stance off the snap and fails to produce ideal results when there is a lapse in concentration on the field. He had a total of seven penalties the past two seasons. He also missed a pair of games after suffering a torn meniscus in his left knee, the same knee that he sprained two years earlier, and was out of shape for several more weeks after his return last season. There are still some that feel he could eventually need a cleanout procedure on that knee. On the field, he can over-extend and get sloppy with his technique when he starts to wear down, so playing for an up-tempo position coach that is more of a motivator than pacifier would really help aid in the development of his game. The wear and tear of the NFL concerns me some when evaluating his overall potential as he seems vulnerable to a slow return from an injury and showing up to training camp at 350 one year.
CONCLUSION
Thomas: Though he still has a chance to go in the top 5, he could also become a victim of circumstances. He could be hurt by the fact that this draft features two potential franchise signal callers (JaMarcus Russell and Brady Quinn) and a top-overall choice that could be a receiver (Calvin Johnson). Furthermore, the struggles of recent highly touted tackle prospects Jordan Gross and Robert Gallery hurt Thomas' chances of going in the top 3. There is a group of evaluators that believe Thomas compares more with an Adam Meadows or Jeff Backus in their prime than a Jonathan Ogden. In fact, there's talk that Central Michigan's Joe Staley has impressed evaluators so much that some teams have explored the idea of dropping down or trading up for him instead of using a high pick on Thomas. Brown: Brown impressed teams by showing up at the Senior Bowl, while Thomas opted to pass on that event. He has closed the gap on some teams' draft boards, but also has Staley breathing down his neck for the No. 2 ranking. There are other teams that see Brown strictly as a mauler-type right tackle and fail to believe he will ever reach his full potential. However, should the light bulb ever go to full wattage, he has the natural skill level to become similar to young All-Pro tackle Jamaal Brown. If not, he will play up and down for a team that has likely expended a high pick for his services.


John Murphy's 6th annual NFL Draft Bible is now available. Learn more at www.nfldraftbible.blogspot.com

John Murphy is Yahoo! Sports' NFL personnel and college prospect evaluator. Murphy's sixth annual NFL Draft Bible is now available. Learn more at www.nfldraftbible.blogspot.com.

Updated on

 

[slanidrac16]

The more I read about these 2 guys , the more I'm leaning toward Brown. I just heard that Thomas will not attend the draft. Instead he is going fishing.

I thinks it's rediculous to say Brown doesn't warrant the 5th pick. If he is a better fit than Thomas then it shouldn't matter because we are comparing two guys at the same position that talent wise are about the same. The question should not be "is he worth the 5th pick" but rather who is left when we select. Should Brown be picked ahead of a guy like Peterson or Johnson? No. But when we are talking about a group of guys that include Adams, Branch, any QB(as far as we are concerned), Thomas, or Brown then I say take the guy that fits your program best ala the New England Patriots. If the staff believes Levi Brown is a better fit than Joe Thomas then I say to hell with the grading system or critics. I don't care if Thomas grades out at 6.70 and Brown grades out at 6.50 per say.

Eleven teams past on Merriman 2 years ago. ELEVEN! And why? Because he didn't "warrant" being picked any higher. As it turns out he may very well be the best player in the draft that year. If the draft combine was a perfect science Merriman should have been the highest rated player in the draft in 2005.

It looks more and more like Thomas will be available when we select. If the Cards are going to select a OT at that point, then it would not bother me in the least if they select Brown instead. Many will scream and complain that we should trade down if thats the case but remember, it takes 2 teams to make a deal.

 

[General Chaos]

I have been more impressed watching Brown. Thomas seems to get all the hype but I personally haven't seen him dominate like a top 5 OT should.

 

[john h]

I have been more impressed watching Brown. Thomas seems to get all the hype but I personally haven't seen him dominate like a top 5 OT should.

I have been a strong advocate of Thomas but reading this gives me pause. Can Thomas maintain the weight he put on while sick? In the NFL he could easily lose that weight. Is the other guy meaner? I need to reevaluate these two guys. Even on the stats Brown beat Thomas in some of the main events. Longer arms and bigger hands. He had 31 reps. Maybe Brown is undervalued and teams are hyping Thomas with the idea of taking Brown. This is really a sticky choice where once I thought it was a no brainer. This info was off the lead page on Yahoo by a decent writer.

 

[kerouac9]

Levi Brown = Leonard Davis

Joe Thomas = Levi Jones

Whom would you rather have?

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Thomas everyday and twice on Sunday.

I would much rather spend a late teens pick on Staley, than a 10 or so on Brown. Something about Brown just doesn't click with me.

K9, You're right about comparing Brown with Davis. Including this doozy:

Will get too high in his stance moving to the second level, but shows good knee bend when changing direction … Smart player who recognizes schemes, but he will lose concentration and jump the snap count, resulting in more than a handful of false start penalties.

Can we really deal with another high draft pick that will false start at a crucial time of the game?

 

[JeffGollin]

The more I rewatch Senior Bowl drills, the more impressed I am with Brown - specifically the power with which he drives defenders backward. But I also was impressed with Thomas' speed and follow through getting to the second level and making blocks 30 yards down field.

Funny thing, though. There is a pecking order of stuff we need to know about a player.

- You find out his measurables at the Combine, but the workout numbers in shorts don't reflect what a guy can do in real games where there is real hitting. So you go to the highlight reels.

- The highlight reels (including Senior Bowl practices) show you what the guy has done (and can do) in a handful of circumstances (i.e. where he mauled an opponent or in turn was undressed). We need to know if the player is consistent and what other things about him (like the non-stoppedness of his motor) are revealed in other isolated games. For that you need to watch as many snaps in as many of his college games as possible.

- Unless you're even more obsessive complusive than we are, you're not likely to have collected a few dozen tapes of any of these young men in action. But the scouts have. And what they're likely to know - from game tapes and interviews - that we don't know is consistency of play (including toughness and physicality) and the size of the young man's heart.

I believe any decision between Thomas and Brown will boil down to (a) game tape and interview stuff we fans aren't privy to and (b) which guy best fits the position-profile. Will it be Mr. Consistent Dancing Feet? or Mr. Inconsistent Smashmouth?

 

[kerouac9]

Yeah, surprising the Levi Brown looks good when money is at stake and not the team winning games, when the only thing at stake is dollars. If being able to be good at Senior Bowl drills scored TDs, that would be a convincing argument.

Levi Brown may be more physically talented than Joe Thomas, but the Arizona Cardinals need someone who can consistently be good even if he's not always great. That player is Joe Thomas.

 

[kerouac9]

TALE OF THE TAPE
Thomas
Height 6-7
Weight 311
40 time 4.92
Short shuttle 4.85
3-cone 7.88
Vertical 33"
Broad jump 9'2"
Arm 32½"
Hand 9¾"
225lb bench 28 reps

Brown
Height 6-5
Weight 328
40 time 5.32
Short shuttle 4.82
3-cone 7.81
Vertical 28.5"
Broad jump 8'7"
Arm 34 3/8"
Hand 10¼"
225lb bench 31 reps

PROS
Thomas: Thomas, a tight end and defensive end at the start of his career, grades out as an above-average athlete for the position. However, his stock rose as he was able to increase his weight by nearly 20 pounds while rehabbing from a knee injury that occurred at the Capital One Bowl in 2006. His added strength helped him become a more effective blocker at the point of attack. His strong hands allow him to create a violent punch off the snap, but his signature trademarks are his footwork and athleticism, which allow him to adjust and handle edge pass rushers. For a player of his stature, he is able to stay low and fires off the ball with a good amount of power, though he could stand to get more consistent in this area. A very bright guy in the classroom, he works as hard in the film room as he does in the weight room. He plays with both patience and aggression as he does not get penalized and is rarely beaten with the same move. His makeup and all-around skill level gives him a very attractive package for a team with a high draft choice as he would appear to be an extremely "safe" choice.

Brown: Few scouts would argue that when Brown plays his "A" game, he is a force to be reckoned with as both a drive blocker and when handling most outside pass rushers. His natural size makes him a hard guy to beat in one-on-one situations. He also displays good footwork and blocking downfield, but needs to keep a close eye on his weight and conditioning. He shows the flexibility to stay with defenders that use a lot of stunts and twists, though he's still more of a mauler type. Although he played the majority of his college downs on the left side, his size and aggressiveness could allow for an initial move to the right side for a team that has a veteran starting left tackle. He’s a smart kid who graduated in 3½ years, so he should be able to learn to cut down on the mental mistakes that led to four pre-snap penalties as a senior.

CONS
Thomas: Thomas has two things working against him right now. First, the Detroit Lions and Arizona Cardinals, who were thought to be top contenders for his services, have made free agent moves along the offensive line. Second, he does not have really long arms (32 ½ inches) which, when compared to a similar-sized tackle like Doug Free (36") or even an under-sized guard/center like Josh Beekman (32"), raises concerns. Although a few inches seem minor, a shorter-armed tackle can struggle with allowing pass rushers to get into his body. The fact that he is a naturally right-handed person, which is not his outside or lead hand when lined up at left tackle, is a further cause of concern. He made much better use of his hands as a senior, but that will be a critical area in terms of creating a consistent jolt/impact. His right knee injury passed all postseason examinations, so that does not seem to be a real issue with teams.

Brown: His detractors see a bit of an underachiever who may never live up to the vast natural ability he possesses. This stems from the fact that he takes off too many plays, gets high in his stance off the snap and fails to produce ideal results when there is a lapse in concentration on the field. He had a total of seven penalties the past two seasons. He also missed a pair of games after suffering a torn meniscus in his left knee, the same knee that he sprained two years earlier, and was out of shape for several more weeks after his return last season. There are still some that feel he could eventually need a cleanout procedure on that knee. On the field, he can over-extend and get sloppy with his technique when he starts to wear down, so playing for an up-tempo position coach that is more of a motivator than pacifier would really help aid in the development of his game. The wear and tear of the NFL concerns me some when evaluating his overall potential as he seems vulnerable to a slow return from an injury and showing up to training camp at 350 one year.

CONCLUSION
Thomas: Though he still has a chance to go in the top 5, he could also become a victim of circumstances. He could be hurt by the fact that this draft features two potential franchise signal callers (JaMarcus Russell and Brady Quinn) and a top-overall choice that could be a receiver (Calvin Johnson). Furthermore, the struggles of recent highly touted tackle prospects Jordan Gross and Robert Gallery hurt Thomas' chances of going in the top 3. There is a group of evaluators that believe Thomas compares more with an Adam Meadows or Jeff Backus in their prime than a Jonathan Ogden. In fact, there's talk that Central Michigan's Joe Staley has impressed evaluators so much that some teams have explored the idea of dropping down or trading up for him instead of using a high pick on Thomas.

Brown: Brown impressed teams by showing up at the Senior Bowl, while Thomas opted to pass on that event. He has closed the gap on some teams' draft boards, but also has Staley breathing down his neck for the No. 2 ranking. There are other teams that see Brown strictly as a mauler-type right tackle and fail to believe he will ever reach his full potential. However, should the light bulb ever go to full wattage, he has the natural skill level to become similar to young All-Pro tackle Jamaal Brown. If not, he will play up and down for a team that has likely expended a high pick for his services.

 

[Mulli]

Can we please let up on the tales of the tape?

 

[kerouac9]

Can we please let up on the tales of the tape?

I was just trying to make it legible for everyone...

 

[Mulli]

I was just trying to make it legible for everyone...

thanks

 

[Shogun]

Haha. So the only knocks are that Joe is right handed and his arms are shorter than you would like? Oh yeah, must we forget that he decided not to go to NY for the draft to spend time with his father. What a total douche.

 

[Redsz]

I saw an astounding stat recently.

Joe Thomas recorded a 120 pan cake blocks during the year. Levi Brown recorded 60.

Thomas was dominate all year. This is just another example of people over thinking when it comes to the draft.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I saw an astounding stat recently.

Joe Thomas recorded a 120 pan cake blocks during the year. Levi Brown recorded 60.

Thomas was dominate all year. This is just another example of people over thinking when it comes to the draft.

 

[Mulli]

I saw an astounding stat recently.

Joe Thomas recorded a 120 pan cake blocks during the year. Levi Brown recorded 60.

Thomas was dominate all year. This is just another example of people over thinking when it comes to the draft.

How many were against Northwestern?

 

[BullheadCardFan]

He’s a smart kid who graduated in 3½ years, so he should be able to learn to cut down on the mental mistakes that led to four pre-snap penalties as a senior.

This is one area of concern with Brown for me ... what was the reason .. ?? was his opponent a quick DE and he was tryng to get an edge .. ?? or was it lack of focus .. ??

 

[perivolaki]

I saw an astounding stat recently.

Joe Thomas recorded a 120 pan cake blocks during the year. Levi Brown recorded 60.

Thomas was dominate all year. This is just another example of people over thinking when it comes to the draft.

If that's true why do guys that played both players think that Brown is more difficult to play against. A previous article said that Thomas just makes the block while Brown physically manhandles his opponents. These two don't seem to correspond. I think I am more confused than ever.

 

[earthsci]

I'll base judgement on who was the better tackle for the past four years, not on the Senior Bowl.

Please pick Joe Thomas if he's there.:ipray:

 

[joeshmo]

If that's true why do guys that played both players think that Brown is more difficult to play against. A previous article said that Thomas just makes the block while Brown physically manhandles his opponents. These two don't seem to correspond. I think I am more confused than ever.

That was one player I think, not multiple. And did that player get one huge block from Brown that made him think of Brown for ever or was he actually be manhandled the whole game.

As for Thomas not looking dominate its because he is so good that he makes it look easy, and the fact that he can go to the second level at will after destroying his first guy is the big difference between he and Brown IMO.

 

[Assface]

Does anyone have a tale of the tape for these two?

 

[perivolaki]

That was one player I think, not multiple. And did that player get one huge block from Brown that made him think of Brown for ever or was he actually be manhandled the whole game.

As for Thomas not looking dominate its because he is so good that he makes it look easy, and the fact that he can go to the second level at will after destroying his first guy is the big difference between he and Brown IMO.

If I remember the article it said players who had played against both. To me that says that it was more than one, how many players I don't know.

I got the impression from the article that some of those players experiences were backed up by some scouts observations. It seems from at least some of the scouting reports that it is believed that Brown is the more physical player while Thomas is the more polished refined player.

It just seems that we are getting contradictory information. What a surprise huh.

 

[Garthshort]

Thread

John H, thank you for starting this discussion. One minus about Thomas indicated that as a natural right hander, he is not completely comfortable playing on the left side. Well with us, because ML is a lefty, he'd probably be playing on his natural right side, thus turning a minus into a plus. And WTH does his going fishing have to do with anything.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Levi Brown = Leonard Davis

Joe Thomas = Levi Jones

Whom would you rather have?

Joe Thomas