The $12M is going to be spent so stop worrying

[ASUCHRIS]

This may be a stupid question, but what has any of these players you are naming done to deserve a contract extension?

 

[conraddobler]

Just a quick comment on the signing bonus part I think you could easily get away with using the money if just before the last game you rewrite the deal so that the player gets like 7 million this year no prorated you just did that very thing in effect.

It's 100% legit because it is all accounted for in the salary cap just not next years.

It's pretty crafty but usually not used because teams are so busy worrying about getting under the cap from previous years.

 

[jon_nyaz]

Re: Re: The $12M is going to be spent so stop worrying

Originally posted by Cardiologist
Meanwhile 12.5% of the season is gone and that $12 million that will be spent have not helped. The average score of the games have been 12-40 -- not for us. And in order to have a chance at a playoff spot we have to win 9 of our final 14 games -- that's a 64.3% percentage. Do you really think it matters to me that the $12 million that will be spent this season when it will be too little too late?

You're missing the point. Ask yourself this question, "Would you sacrifice being mediocre THIS YEAR in favor of sucking THIS YEAR, to be extremely competitive TWO YEARS FROM NOW?". I know I would, if I had a crystal ball and could see the future and know that we'd be competing for the NFC crown.

 

[RedStorm]

Re: Re: Re: The $12M is going to be spent so stop worrying

Originally posted by jon_nyaz
You're missing the point. Ask yourself this question, "Would you sacrifice being mediocre THIS YEAR in favor of sucking THIS YEAR, to be extremely competitive TWO YEARS FROM NOW?". I know I would, if I had a crystal ball and could see the future and know that we'd be competing for the NFC crown.

Yes. But, we have been mediocre at best. You say in possibly two years we can be in the playoffs? It has not happened yet why two years from now?

Although, yes, if someone could guarantee it, I would care less if we went 0-16.

 

[JasonKGME]

Re: Re: The $12M is going to be spent so stop worrying

Originally posted by Russ Smith
If I understand you and the rules correctly your scenario doesn't work. Shelton's bonus would still count prorated over the 4 years(5 actually if we extend him during this season) so the caphit this year from his bonus would only be 1 million. The rest of the bonus is prorated. If it's legal you could frontload the deal with a big first year salary this year but I believe there are NFL rules on how much a deal can increase or decrease year to year so we can only do that to a certain extent.

Did some research on the NFLPA.ORG web site checking out the CBA. From what I read everywhere you have to pro-rate the signing bonus (which would be over 5 years if signed before the end of the year)

Here is where you can get tricky in your contracts tho:

What you have to do is when you sign the extension for your player, you include a incentive clause in THE CURRENT YEARS contract and make it an "likely to be achived" incentive. I.E. If you resign shelton and he has allready played in 200 snaps this year, you include an incentive clause that states if he plays 201 snaps this year he gets a bonus of $2 million dollars. The leagues marks it as a likely to be made incentive and it counts against the current years cap.

Yes it is a loophole, but it is a legal loophole.

 

[jon_nyaz]

Re: Re: Re: Re: The $12M is going to be spent so stop worrying

Originally posted by Cardiologist
No, I don't think you are right. For three straight years the Cardinals have had the youngest roster. There is only one reason for that to happen. The team lets go of it's expensive or soon to be expensive players so they can keep the younger, less expensive players. What makes you think this pattern will change any time soon?

If I had to guess, I would say that specifically you are referring to:

Garrison Hearst
Eric Hill
Eric Swann
Mark Smith
Lomas Brown
Jamir Miller
Simeon Rice
Aeneas Williams
Larry Centers
David Boston
Michael Pittman
Frank Sanders
Jake Plummer
and maybe a few others... So let's take a quick run down...

Garrison Hearst - Major knee injury. Fairly ineffective as a Cardinal. Poor attitude. Needed a change of scenery. Would you have resigned him and taken the financial risk? In hindsight maybe, but the man didn't want to be here.

Eric Hill - Left us for the Rams thinking they would be a better team than us. We went to the playoffs the very next year and the Rams sucked. Hill ends up coming back, and retiring as a Cardinal. Now works in the media booth on the radio.

Eric Swann - Perpetually injured and rotten attitude. Retired from the game.

Mark Smith - Rotten attitude. Only performed well when Eric Swann was next to him taking on double teams. Didn't want to be here and gave up a seven figure contract offer to go to the Bengals as I recall. Last seen flipping burgers in a Seattle Fuddruckers restaurant that Bob Ferguson likes to frequent.

Lomas Brown - Not sure why we didn't keep him for another couple years. I think letting Lomas go was a big mistake.

Jamir Miller - Jamir gave up more money from the Cardinals to go to Cleveland and be a blitzing OLB. He had one pro-bowl season and has been unimpactful ever since. Guy just didn't want to be here.

Simeon Rice - Ugh! I guess we could have franchised him again, but the bottom line is the guy didn't want to be here ("armpit of the NFL"). He's in a better situation now that he has the most dominating inside d-linemen on the planet to play next to. Simeon isn't as dumb as everyone thinks.

Aeneas Williams - Had enough of the losing and the nickel and diming ways of the Bidwills. Didn't want to be here. At least we got a 2nd rounder for him.

Larry Centers - This is another one that I think was a big mistake, but I am biased because Larry is my favorite Cardinal of all time.

David Boston - LOL. Somebody needs to stand there and watch this guy pee in a cup. He came into the league weighing 210lbs soaking wet. He's up to 260 with no end in sight. NO ONE puts on 50 lbs of muscle unless they are on the sauce. He's a ticking time bomb.

Michael Pittman - Another ticking time bomb. The Cardinals have this thing that they don't want off-field liabilities hanging around the clubhouse. Pittman was a monster on the field, but he was fumble prone and averaged more domestic felonies than he did TDs.

Frank Sanders - Frank is another guy we possibly could have kept, but he needs a dominating guy at split end to draw the double team and with Boston gone, it made sense to jettison his big contract. Besides, he's lost a step and had this maddening habit of dropping the easy catches and making the impossible ones. Love ya Frank, but you needed to go.

Jake Plummer - Books have been written about this one. Suffice it to say that hardly anyone here believes that Jake isn't better off in Denver and we're not better off without him.

So in my opinion, the Cardinals in general only want guys that want to be here - - to actually be here. Yes, we have to over pay to attract top talent and the Cardinals need to understand that if they want to compete. The Bucs, Colts, Rams and Titans all started by over-paying to attract top talent. Now they sign guys for less because players want to win. We could get ourselves in the same situation over time. But if a guy doesn't want to be a Cardinal, then he needs to go away.

 

[jon_nyaz]

Re: Re: Re: Re: The $12M is going to be spent so stop worrying

Originally posted by RedStorm
Yes. But, we have been mediocre at best. You say in possibly two years we can be in the playoffs? It has not happened yet why two years from now?

Although, yes, if someone could guarantee it, I would care less if we went 0-16.

Well we were there in 1998. What happened since then? We made the mistake of letting clubhouse leaders like Lomas Brown and Larry Centers walk away when we could have had both of them back. Way more than our share of injuries. A QB who underperformed. Some terrible drafts. 40% of our cap wasted on players that weren't here anymore, and a terrible front-office "process" for getting guys signed (i.e. - letting free agents get on a plane and fly to another city while Bidwill Sr. was slopping at the trough somewhere and unavailable to give the final approval on contracts). So that's why we sucked since '98.

So what's different now and two years from now? I see a talented QB in Jeff Blake, a top three draft pick in the upcoming draft which we'll use on the QB of the future, tons of cap space, a nucleus of guys that seem to want to be here, a more streamlined front-office process, a tremendous new playing facility on the horizon and some good role players at some key positions. Sure a lot can happen and I can't guarantee that we'll be a serious contender in two years, but if you compare the facts of the last few years to where we are now, it seems a lot more plausible to me.

 

[Sandan]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The $12M is going to be spent so stop worrying

Originally posted by jon_nyaz
Well we were there in 1998. What happened since then?

One thing that happened was devasting injuries for the next couple of years

 

[Russ Smith]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The $12M is going to be spent so stop worrying

Originally posted by jon_nyaz
So what's different now and two years from now? I see a talented QB in Jeff Blake, a top three draft pick in the upcoming draft which we'll use on the QB of the future, tons of cap space, a nucleus of guys that seem to want to be here, a more streamlined front-office process, a tremendous new playing facility on the horizon and some good role players at some key positions. Sure a lot can happen and I can't guarantee that we'll be a serious contender in two years, but if you compare the facts of the last few years to where we are now, it seems a lot more plausible to me.

I don't think there's a QB yet in the draft who's worth the top 3 pick and the money.
The draft as always depends on who comes out, if guys like Andrew Walter and Greene from Georgia are in the draft I would consider either(I think Greene won't go in round 1 but should).
Walter is big with a gun and very talented, Greene is one of those guys who plays better than he looks. Roethlisberger from Miami of Ohio is highly rated but I have never seen him play. I wouldn't be stunned if Brock Berlin came out too a talented but inconsistent guy who just needs to play which he is doing this year at Miami.

There is no sure thing QB in this draft. Maybe there's a soon to be ex baseball player we could pursue (-:

 

[AZCB34]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The $12M is going to be spent so stop worrying

Originally posted by Russ Smith
I don't think there's a QB yet in the draft who's worth the top 3 pick and the money.
The draft as always depends on who comes out, if guys like Andrew Walter and Greene from Georgia are in the draft I would consider either(I think Greene won't go in round 1 but should).
Walter is big with a gun and very talented, Greene is one of those guys who plays better than he looks. Roethlisberger from Miami of Ohio is highly rated but I have never seen him play. I wouldn't be stunned if Brock Berlin came out too a talented but inconsistent guy who just needs to play which he is doing this year at Miami.

There is no sure thing QB in this draft. Maybe there's a soon to be ex baseball player we could pursue (-:

Russ, I am not sure there is a QB that can cause the Cards to take one that early and pay the QB premium that will be demanded. The Cards will shop for QBs outside of round 1 whenevr possible...not that I disagree. The Cards would try like hell to trade down again. That is how they have the best chance of signing guys on time...again, that is a good thing in the long run. They will miss out on some serious players to be had early but they get the benefit of having giys in camp close to if not outright on time.

Henson won't come here...unless he goes back into the draft. No matter what he could have been he is closer to Josh Booty right now than Brett Favre

 

[Russ Smith]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The $12M is going to be spent so stop worrying

Originally posted by AZCB34

Henson won't come here...unless he goes back into the draft. No matter what he could have been he is closer to Josh Booty right now than Brett Favre

I agree, he won't want to be here. I still can't figure why the Yankees brought him up, they said they can use him as a pinchrunner, he's not that fast.

Basically he said he wanted to take 7-8 weeks off to think over his future, I guess they decided he was leaving baseball and called him up because of that. Rumor is the Yankees wanted him to leave. I have a pet theory of my own, they called him up so they could put him in a game or 3 down the stretch and let him see for himself that he can NOT hit major league pitchers. I think they figure put him in, let him whiff over and over, and he'll decide to go back to football. Otherwise it makes no sense to me.

NFL draftblitz predicts he'll announce he's going to play football, refuse to sign, and be a first round pick next year.

There are 4-5 guys who may be good enough to take really high, if this draft comes down as projected moving down this year might be ideal, this is supposed to be a much better draft.

 

[AZCB34]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The $12M is going to be spent so stop worrying

Originally posted by Russ Smith
I agree, he won't want to be here. I still can't figure why the Yankees brought him up, they said they can use him as a pinchrunner, he's not that fast.

Basically he said he wanted to take 7-8 weeks off to think over his future, I guess they decided he was leaving baseball and called him up because of that. Rumor is the Yankees wanted him to leave. I have a pet theory of my own, they called him up so they could put him in a game or 3 down the stretch and let him see for himself that he can NOT hit major league pitchers. I think they figure put him in, let him whiff over and over, and he'll decide to go back to football. Otherwise it makes no sense to me.

NFL draftblitz predicts he'll announce he's going to play football, refuse to sign, and be a first round pick next year.

There are 4-5 guys who may be good enough to take really high, if this draft comes down as projected moving down this year might be ideal, this is supposed to be a much better draft.

I don't think that 7-8 week "thinking" period is a coincidence. I believe that would fall right around the time he would have to be signed or go back into the draft next year (McKinnie last year had to be signed by early November).

I just wonder if he can just pick right back up and go at QB again. I almost wonder if he should pull a Chris Weinke and go back and play one more year in college...although he risks faceplanting and getting no money in the NFL.

I think that history says he will not be all that good in the NFL based on other recent players who have followed his career path...Booty, Weinke. I guess Q Carter would change that a little but he hasn't done anything with consistency yet to not lump into the same grouping

 

[Shane]

Jon,

Clement is here at a minimum for 3 more years. It comes from memory and is sill a fact. Im sorry you arent willing to take another fans memory on this. Im surprised that as a fan you dont remember the team locking him up long term.

It happened I dont need to show you any further proof because I know its a fact!

 

[Russ Smith]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The $12M is going to be spent so stop worrying

Originally posted by AZCB34
I don't think that 7-8 week "thinking" period is a coincidence. I believe that would fall right around the time he would have to be signed or go back into the draft next year (McKinnie last year had to be signed by early November).

I just wonder if he can just pick right back up and go at QB again. I almost wonder if he should pull a Chris Weinke and go back and play one more year in college...although he risks faceplanting and getting no money in the NFL.

I think that history says he will not be all that good in the NFL based on other recent players who have followed his career path...Booty, Weinke. I guess Q Carter would change that a little but he hasn't done anything with consistency yet to not lump into the same grouping

He can't go back the 5 years to play 4 will have expired on him.

The difference with him is he played football before leaving for baseball, Booty and Weinke didn't IIRC.

I guess it's a reach but a pretty fair QB by the name of Roger Staubach sat out several years because of the military and still made it.

I think if he keeps wavering he's going to piss off a lot of NFL people for the final time and his options will decrease.

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by Shane H
Jon,

Clement is here at a minimum for 3 more years. It comes from memory and is sill a fact. Im sorry you arent willing to take another fans memory on this. Im surprised that as a fan you dont remember the team locking him up long term.

It happened I dont need to show you any further proof because I know its a fact!

Here is some assistance Shane:

Cardinals | Breaking Down Clement's Deal - from www.KFFL.com
Sat, 16 Mar 2002 13:54:07 -0800

The breakdown of OT Anthony Clement's new five-year contract with the Arizona Cardinals is: the deal, as previously reported, is valued at $15 million and included a $3 million signing bonus. The base salaries are $2.4 million for all five years of the contract.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cardinals | More On Clement - from www.KFFL.com
Sat, 2 Mar 2002 20:10:45 -0800

Updating an earlier story, ESPN reports the five-year contract agreed to with the Arizona Cardinals by OT Anthony Clement is valued at $15 million and includes a $3 million signing bonus. All of last season's starters now are under contract -- T L.J. Shelton, guards Davis and Pete Kendall and C Matt Gruttadauria.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cardinals | Clement Agrees to 5-year Deal - from www.KFFL.com
Sat, 2 Mar 2002 14:39:59 -0800

Alan Schuster, of AZProSports.com, reports the Arizona Cardinals have agreed to terms on a new five-year deal with ORT Anthony Clement.

 

[Shane]

Thanks

 

[AZCB34]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The $12M is going to be spent so stop worrying

Originally posted by Russ Smith
He can't go back the 5 years to play 4 will have expired on him.

The difference with him is he played football before leaving for baseball, Booty and Weinke didn't IIRC.

I guess it's a reach but a pretty fair QB by the name of Roger Staubach sat out several years because of the military and still made it.

I think if he keeps wavering he's going to piss off a lot of NFL people for the final time and his options will decrease.

Didn't know that. Thanks.

I wonder if Henson has kept throwing footballs though. I know Staubach did on all his assignments in the Navy. Not that it will matter alot but mentally (although some may argue otherwise) he has been all baseball. I just wonder if he can make the switch back.

Good points on the timelines for Booty and Weinke.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Oh, for the old days when Alan had his current salary cap list that everyone could instantly refer to.

 

[JeffGollin]

Meanwhile 12.5% of the season is gone and that $12 million that will be spent have not helped.
There it is.

It's not just money - it's money utilized over a period of time. And it's what that money can do for you at any point in the offseason, preseason or regular season.

I'm sure the Cardinals will spend the money to extend and redo contracts, but hells bells! When we've wanted to make significant moves, the excuse was "no cap dollars." And now that we have cap money, we don't make significant moves anyway.

And meanwhile, instead of obtaining maximum benefit from that money in the form of players who'd have practiced with us in preseason and played for us in regular season, we'll wind up putting ourselves in better cap position for next year - so we can fail to spend the cap surplus once again.

I know I'm probably overstating the case, but I'm finding it difficult and frustrating trying to call a shipwreck a "treasure opportunity."

 

[jon_nyaz]

Originally posted by Shane H
Jon,

Clement is here at a minimum for 3 more years. It comes from memory and is sill a fact. Im sorry you arent willing to take another fans memory on this. Im surprised that as a fan you dont remember the team locking him up long term.

It happened I dont need to show you any further proof because I know its a fact!

Shane,

No, I do remember it now. It had slipped my mind. But I was asking if you knew of a place to get the info not as a challenge to you, but simply because I wanted to know if such a place existed. Sorry if I offended you.

 

[Wild Card]

Originally posted by JeffGollin
When we've wanted to make significant moves, the excuse was "no cap dollars." And now that we have cap money, we don't make significant moves anyway.

And meanwhile, instead of obtaining maximum benefit from that money in the form of players who'd have practiced with us in preseason and played for us in regular season, we'll wind up putting ourselves in better cap position for next year - so we can fail to spend the cap surplus once again.

I know I'm probably overstating the case, but I'm finding it difficult and frustrating trying to call a shipwreck a "treasure opportunity."

Jeff:

I don't think you're overstating anything.

Let's look at where the NFL week 2 division leaders were at against the salary cap, as of 9/09 (per ESPN.com):

Denver Broncos $1.825 million under
Indianapolis Colts $781,000 under
Pittsburgh Steelers $842,000 under
Buffalo Bills $2.49 million under
Seattle Seahawks $2.283 million under
Carolina Panthers $938,000 under
Minnesota Vikings $3.386 million under
Washington Redskins $4.089 million under

Those eight teams, combined, were $16.6 million under their total salary caps. The Cardinals were $12.2 million under theirs (before the Derrick Ransom signing, and the release of Goss and Moore). Unless Rod Graves is one of the best judges of bargain-priced talent in the league, and Dave McGinnis is a coach for the ages, how can we realistically expect them to compete?

WC

 

[pete]

Take a franchise QB? Like who? Eli Manning? Is he better than Leftwich? The Cards blew it when they traded the pick and the right to get a QB this year. They should have gotten either Leftwich or Boller in a strong QB class.

I'd rather have Andrew Walter than Manning. Unlike the last ASU QB the Cards drafted, this guy has a cannon for an arm.

 

[Wild Card]

Players Asking Questions

This is scary stuff.

Mike Jurecki, on KDUS, just reported that, since KVB and Starks went down with their season-ending injuries, he's had at least a half-dozen different veterans come up to him and ask, "What's going on? Are we bringing anyone in? Have you heard anything?"

The players don't know why this money isn't being spent. The players know they're undermanned. The players know that pieces are missing. The players are asking reporters for information, because they don't understand what management is doing--or not doing.

WC

 

[AZCB34]

Re: Players Asking Questions

Originally posted by Wild Card
This is scary stuff.

Mike Jurecki, on KDUS, just reported that, since KVB and Starks went down with their season-ending injuries, he's had at least a half-dozen different veterans come up to him and ask, "What's going on? Are we bringing anyone in? Have you heard anything?"

The players don't know why this money isn't being spent. The players know they're undermanned. The players know that pieces are missing. The players are asking reporters for information, because they don't understand what management is doing--or not doing.

WC

Hey WildCard, you think any of these players will talk to their fellow player brethren around the league and what they say may effect future FAs attitudes about signing here? I sure do and have been saying so for some time.

I understand Graves wants to spend his money wisely but what he is doing now is hurting the team now, himself in the future and the fans now and in the future.

So many on this board are touting the resigning of players but if players are asking these questions of Jurecki, why in God's name would they resign here when they are, basically, openly questioning the organizations will to field a proper team and win?

 

[Wild Card]

Re: Re: Players Asking Questions

Originally posted by AZCB34
Hey WildCard, you think any of these players will talk to their fellow player brethren around the league and what they say may effect future FAs attitudes about signing here? I sure do and have been saying so for some time...

So many on this board are touting the resigning of players but if players are asking these questions of Jurecki, why in God's name would they resign here when they are, basically, openly questioning the organizations will to field a proper team and win?

AZCB34:

I assume that those conversations have been going on for some time. I think that's why the Cardinals have had so much trouble signing top-tier FAs (e.g., Colvin, Holliday) and have to win bidding wars for the ones they get (Starks, Jackson). I believe that their best current players look around the league, see ex-Cards like Simeon Rice, Michael Pittman and Lomas Brown wearing Super Bowl rings, and plan accordingly.

After their interview with Chris Walsh yesterday on KDUS, Dale Hellestrae and Don DeBaca commented about many FAs' lack of interest in playing for the Cards, and that it was too bad "because this is such a great place to live." Sure, Walsh would "love to play for the Cardinals"; he's out of the league, already lives in the Valley, and wouldn't mind signing the league minimum contract for an 11-year veteran. Why not? (Sorta like John Fina, last year.)

WC