The 2019-2020 Around the NBA thread

[CardsSunsDbacks]

It was not an efficient performance but on the season he’s averaging 15 more points than shots. There’s never been a gap that wide by a guard.

They’re 1st in PPG and 3rd in ORtg. Without him they’re one of the worst teams in the league. He’s incredible.

Sure, but it’s not because he is shooting well from the field. It’s because he continuously seeks fouls and continuously gets them. It’s not terribly difficult to do that when you are averaging like 15 free throw attempts per game. Though he is a very good free throw shooter.

 

[GatorAZ]

Sure, but it’s not because he is shooting well from the field. It’s because he continuously seeks fouls and continuously gets them. It’s not terribly difficult to do that when you are averaging like 15 free throw attempts per game. Though he is a very good free throw shooter.

Okay so does anyone then? Free throws are part of the game...

Take the highest scoring season from Kobe and MJ; 1987 and 2006

Subtract points from FT’s away from their PPG. They’re both averaging more shots than points. They both manipulated the refs... It’s a skill... Play better defense...

 

[Dr. Jones]

But drafts are crap shoots. It was perfectly reasonable to pick Ayton over Doncic.

I would argue that it wasn't reasonable. If you allow for the future of the league to win out.

It's always BPA.

I keep having to say this......We needed a PG or a Center! BPA yes... but we needed one as well.

This still seems so crazy to me. In this era...... this century....... this decade...... this NBA (or the NFL for that matter) YOU ALWAYS TAKE THE BALL HANDLER OVER THE BIG GUY!!!!!

Especially when the big guy hasn't shown even a modicum of defensive talent or killer aggression.

Luka was an 18 year old in a league KNOWN for not allowing teenagers to get big minutes and he led them to the EURO LEAGUE TITLE. Afte leading his country to the EURO CHAMPIONSHIP.

So stupid.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Okay so does anyone then? Free throws are part of the game...

Take the highest scoring season from Kobe and MJ; 1987 and 2006

Subtract points from FT’s away from their PPG. They’re both averaging more shots than points. They both manipulated the refs... It’s a skill... Play better defense...

Dude, I'm not suggesting that he sucks or anything, but it is a poopy style to watch. Sure he is more efficient than Jordan and Kobe in their highest scoring seasons, but their style of play was much more entertaining than just watching a guy jack up 15 threes and get to the free throw line with very little of anything else.

 

[SirStefan32]

I would argue that it wasn't reasonable. If you allow for the future of the league to win out.


I keep having to say this......We needed a PG or a Center! BPA yes... but we needed one as well.

This still seems so crazy to me. In this era...... this century....... this decade...... this NBA (or the NFL for that matter) YOU ALWAYS TAKE THE BALL HANDLER OVER THE BIG GUY!!!!!

Especially when the big guy hasn't shown even a modicum of defensive talent or killer aggression.

Luka was an 18 year old in a league KNOWN for not allowing teenagers to get big minutes and he led them to the EURO LEAGUE TITLE. Afte leading his country to the EURO CHAMPIONSHIP.

So stupid.

But it's not that simple. I was very high on Doncic, but I would have picked Ayton too. There was no question that Doncic would be a good player, but he had questions surrounding him too. There was no guarantee that he could get into the lane in the NBA, there was no guarantee that he'd be able to get that step-back three against the NBA competition, there was no guarantee that he would have been able to play the primary ball handler role against the NBA competition, and the list goes on. Nobody questioned his work ethic, his "motor", or anything like that, but there were legitimate questions around his lack of speed, quickness, etc.

Ayton is a prototypical modern center. He has the size, his body is incredibly well-developed for someone his age and height. He has inside game and he can hit a mid-range jumper. He can guard the perimeter as well. There were no questions regarding his size, athleticism, ability to score, rebound, etc. Concerns around him had to do with his "motor" and work ethic.

It would have been perfectly reasonable to pick Luka, and it was perfectly reasonable to pick Ayton. Nobody thought that Luka would be as good as he is. I am 99% sure that 90% of the teams would have picked Ayton with the first pick. It's easy to say they should have drafted Luka now, but at the time, either pick was perfectly reasonable. You are gambling either way- you are counting on Luka to be able to do in the NBA what he did in Europe, or you are gambling that Ayton is going to develop into an unstoppable big man. Another thing to consider is that while Luka has been amazing, Ayton has been pretty damn good too. It's not like they passed on Luka to pick Chriss, Bender, or Josh Jackson. Ayton had a historically great season for a rookie Center of his age. Luka is obviously better, but it's not like Ayton sucks.

It's not always clear as to who the best player available is. Suns made the wrong choice, but it was a perfectly reasonable choice.

 

[gimpy]

Refs won't let you play defense.

 

[JCSunsfan]

But it's not that simple. I was very high on Doncic, but I would have picked Ayton too. There was no question that Doncic would be a good player, but he had questions surrounding him too. There was no guarantee that he could get into the lane in the NBA, there was no guarantee that he'd be able to get that step-back three against the NBA competition, there was no guarantee that he would have been able to play the primary ball handler role against the NBA competition, and the list goes on. Nobody questioned his work ethic, his "motor", or anything like that, but there were legitimate questions around his lack of speed, quickness, etc.

Ayton is a prototypical modern center. He has the size, his body is incredibly well-developed for someone his age and height. He has inside game and he can hit a mid-range jumper. He can guard the perimeter as well. There were no questions regarding his size, athleticism, ability to score, rebound, etc. Concerns around him had to do with his "motor" and work ethic.

It would have been perfectly reasonable to pick Luka, and it was perfectly reasonable to pick Ayton. Nobody thought that Luka would be as good as he is. I am 99% sure that 90% of the teams would have picked Ayton with the first pick. It's easy to say they should have drafted Luka now, but at the time, either pick was perfectly reasonable. You are gambling either way- you are counting on Luka to be able to do in the NBA what he did in Europe, or you are gambling that Ayton is going to develop into an unstoppable big man. Another thing to consider is that while Luka has been amazing, Ayton has been pretty damn good too. It's not like they passed on Luka to pick Chriss, Bender, or Josh Jackson. Ayton had a historically great season for a rookie Center of his age. Luka is obviously better, but it's not like Ayton sucks.

It's not always clear as to who the best player available is. Suns made the wrong choice, but it was a perfectly reasonable choice.

This. IMO still, Ayton was the more sure thing. And when you have the #1 pick, you take the sure thing. Doncic was more of a gamble, but Dallas hit the numbers and he has paid off in a big way, but it does not mean the reasoning was unsound by the Suns at the time.

 

[GatorAZ]

As bad as a franchise altering miss it could likely be I’m not mad. I liked Doncic but my final vote was Ayton. Nobody saw this... It wasn’t like the Cardinals taking Levi over AD and me screaming **** you dumb mother **** at my television. We’ll live with it and be fine.

 

[95pro]

Watching some Melo highlights...TJ Warren reminds me a lot of Melo, except Warren doesn't or can't finish with contact.

 

[Hoop Head]

Did everyone that's pro-Luka forget that he wasn't willing to travel to the US to work out for the Suns or anyone pre-draft? When you have the #1 overall pick and someone won't come work out for you, it's not unreasonable to go with a different selection. It's not that he held out with the Suns specifically, he did that for all NBA teams. That raised some questions as to how much he wanted to be in the NBA and if he would come over right away. Selecting a player #1 overall and having to wait a year for them to finally come over could have been catastrophic, especially with talent like Ayton, Young, Bagley, and Jackson all on the board.

I know he had a long year of Euro-basketball and that's primarily why he didn't travel but a player not coming over to workout for a team with the #1 overall pick hasn't happened before, as far as I know, and understandably caused the Suns to move on. You certainly don't select the one guy who didn't work out for you when you have a pick like the Suns did.

I'm fully aware that the Suns could have traveled to Europe to see him but that would have put them behind schedule with everything else. The Suns had more than just that #1 overall pick and had more to do than figure out who was being picked there. Taking all the decision makers to Europe to watch Luka for a day would actually take 3 days, most likely, when travel is factored in and the Suns would have been torn apart by the media for spending so much time on a player that wasn't that serious about being drafted and coming to the NBA. That's the narrative that would have been pushed, regardless of the accuracy. It's easy to say a player doesn't want to come to the US and play in the NBA if he won't travel to work out for a team.

 

[SirStefan32]

Wasn't he in the middle of winning the Euroleague title?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Did everyone that's pro-Luka forget that he wasn't willing to travel to the US to work out for the Suns or anyone pre-draft? When you have the #1 overall pick and someone won't come work out for you, it's not unreasonable to go with a different selection. It's not that he held out with the Suns specifically, he did that for all NBA teams. That raised some questions as to how much he wanted to be in the NBA and if he would come over right away. Selecting a player #1 overall and having to wait a year for them to finally come over could have been catastrophic, especially with talent like Ayton, Young, Bagley, and Jackson all on the board.

I know he had a long year of Euro-basketball and that's primarily why he didn't travel but a player not coming over to workout for a team with the #1 overall pick hasn't happened before, as far as I know, and understandably caused the Suns to move on. You certainly don't select the one guy who didn't work out for you when you have a pick like the Suns did.

I'm fully aware that the Suns could have traveled to Europe to see him but that would have put them behind schedule with everything else. The Suns had more than just that #1 overall pick and had more to do than figure out who was being picked there. Taking all the decision makers to Europe to watch Luka for a day would actually take 3 days, most likely, when travel is factored in and the Suns would have been torn apart by the media for spending so much time on a player that wasn't that serious about being drafted and coming to the NBA. That's the narrative that would have been pushed, regardless of the accuracy. It's easy to say a player doesn't want to come to the US and play in the NBA if he won't travel to work out for a team.

I’m sorry, I think the take that the suns moved on from doncic bc his not coming here inconvenienced them is (a) most likely inaccurate; and (b) a bit silly. No franchise passes on a player who could be the best because of your alleged facts. That would be the dumbest franchise ever (not that suns under Sarver couldn’t qualify for that title).

 

[Hoop Head]

Wasn't he in the middle of winning the Euroleague title?

That finished a couple weeks before the draft. From what I can find, it looks like May 20th is when all that wrapped up and the draft was June 21st. He officially left Real Madrid June 29th. Wiki link

 

[Hoop Head]

I’m sorry, I think the take that the suns moved on from doncic bc his not coming here inconvenienced them is (a) most likely inaccurate; and (b) a bit silly. No franchise passes on a player who could be the best because of your alleged facts. That would be the dumbest franchise ever (not that suns under Sarver couldn’t qualify for that title).

Do you hire the candidate that won't come in for an interview or select the best candidate who did come in?

It's not like Luka was head and shoulders above everyone else prior to the draft. He was viewed as one of the top prospects but not THE top prospect.

I'm not trying to look at things how they are today but how they were pre-draft.

You can bump one of the many threads from that draft, that Luka wouldn't come over for an interview or workout is something that was mentioned then as a reason to lean towards Ayton. Especially when you consider he wasn't coming in and the narrative Gambo was pushing about how his teammates didn't like him and he was a primadonna. I know Gambo was called into question for that but little things like Luka not coming over for a workout didn't help dispel that narrative.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Wasn't he in the middle of winning the Euroleague title?

Yes but don’t let facts get in your way

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Do you hire the candidate that won't come in for an interview or select the best candidate who did come in?

It's not like Luka was head and shoulders above everyone else prior to the draft. He was viewed as one of the top prospects but not THE top prospect.

I'm not trying to look at things how they are today but how they were pre-draft.

You can bump one of the many threads from that draft, that Luka wouldn't come over for an interview or workout is something that was mentioned then as a reason to lean towards Ayton. Especially when you consider he wasn't coming in and the narrative Gambo was pushing about how his teammates didn't like him and he was a primadonna. I know Gambo was called into question for that but little things like Luka not coming over for a workout didn't help dispel that narrative.

He’s just finished winning the euro league and he didn’t come over for anyone. Honestly, to think this is just flat out insane.

and no I wouldn’t eliminate someone who could be t best candidate for a high profile position due to that. Not for a position as important as that. Entry level? Sure. Higher level (like number one pick)? No way. That’s just being stupidly stubborn.

 

[Hoop Head]

Yes but don’t let facts get in your way

Yeah, like the fact that the Euroleague ended a month prior to the draft.

He’s just finished winning the euro league and he didn’t come over for anyone. Honestly, to think this is just flat out insane.

and no I wouldn’t eliminate someone who could be t best candidate for a high profile position due to that. Not for a position as important as that. Entry level? Sure. Higher level (like number one pick)? No way. That’s just being stupidly stubborn.

I really don't get why you're disputing this so much. Go back and look at the talk before the draft. There were questions whether Doncic was coming over right away, questions about his attitude, and it was also viewed as a red flag that he wouldn't come over to work out for anyone.

Here's a link to the post where talk of him staying in Europe started being discussed here...
https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/forum/posts/3709962/

Here's a link to that article directly, it's from May 17th 2018.

https://www.eurohoops.net/en/eurole...-in-europe-we-have-yet-to-make-this-decision/

I'm not disputing whether he's a great player now, he is, but the way you're trying to twist this is like Doncic should have been taken #1 and the Suns picking Ayton was against the grain.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Yeah, like the fact that the Euroleague ended a month prior to the draft.



I really don't get why you're disputing this so much. Go back and look at the talk before the draft. There were questions whether Doncic was coming over right away, questions about his attitude, and it was also viewed as a red flag that he wouldn't come over to work out for anyone.

Here's a link to the post where talk of him staying in Europe started being discussed here...
https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/forum/posts/3709962/

Here's a link to that article directly, it's from May 17th 2018.

https://www.eurohoops.net/en/eurole...-in-europe-we-have-yet-to-make-this-decision/

I'm not disputing whether he's a great player now, he is, but the way you're trying to twist this is like Doncic should have been taken #1 and the Suns picking Ayton was against the grain.

I thought the stay in Europe speculation was supposedly done to keep the Kings away on draft night? It never crossed my mind that he wasn't coming to the NBA, he was made for it and smart enough to know it. Besides, he clearly loved the big stage. Maybe because of the Bender fiasco they were concerned about not being able to work him out but unlike Dragan, they had all the footage they needed.

 

[Mainstreet]

I thought the stay in Europe speculation was supposedly done to keep the Kings away on draft night? It never crossed my mind that he wasn't coming to the NBA, he was made for it and smart enough to know it. Besides, he clearly loved the big stage. Maybe because of the Bender fiasco they were concerned about not being able to work him out but unlike Dragan, they had all the footage they needed.

Also I thought Sarver had traveled to Europe to watch Doncic play.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Also I thought Sarver had traveled to Europe to watch Doncic play.

He did. Ryan was over there too I believe. I think we had the info we needed, we just decided Ayton was the better pick. I guess it's much easier to project a top pick from NCAA ball than it is a player straight from Europe but I suspect we didn't pay enough attention to the fact he wasn't just another player. He dominated that league as a teenager. Even if the league was a little watered down, that's a real accomplishment.

 

[Mainstreet]

He did. Ryan was over there too I believe. I think we had the info we needed, we just decided Ayton was the better pick. I guess it's much easier to project a top pick from NCAA ball than it is a player straight from Europe but I suspect we didn't pay enough attention to the fact he wasn't just another player. He dominated that league as a teenager. Even if the league was a little watered down, that's a real accomplishment.

Exactly. It's not that the Suns didn't scout him.

 

[Hoop Head]

I thought the stay in Europe speculation was supposedly done to keep the Kings away on draft night? It never crossed my mind that he wasn't coming to the NBA, he was made for it and smart enough to know it. Besides, he clearly loved the big stage. Maybe because of the Bender fiasco they were concerned about not being able to work him out but unlike Dragan, they had all the footage they needed.

You could be right about trying to stay away from Sacramento but the Suns weren't exactly an ideal landing spot either, at least until Igor was hired. I would say the Kings had the more dysfunctional front office but he would have fit better on their roster than the Suns, who already had Booker and Jackson locked in at SG and SF. The Kings just had Fox, who hadn't made his leap yet and was more of a defensive PG.

I don't remember the reasoning behind some of the smoke screens put out there but the smoke screens were there. That's all I'm trying to convey. It wasn't an open and shut case, there was a lot of posturing being done and since Luka wasn't coming over for interviews or workouts, it would be hard to know what were legit concerns and what were just smoke screens.

All I'm saying now is the idea that the Suns passed on the clear cut best player available is being blown out of proportion. Luka is the best player from that draft class right now, there's no doubting that, but at the time of the draft it was not that clear. Luka had a number of warts and question marks surrounding him, just like Ayton and everyone else did. Since Luka wouldn't work out for any teams or come over for interviews or workouts that didn't help clear up any misconceptions about him. If anything it hurt his chances of being selected before someone like Ayton.

I know the Suns saw him at other times, just like other teams did, but seeing someone play and being able to actually take time to sit down with them and talk about their future and have them participate in a workout where the Suns, or any other team, controls what is being done is quite different. To select someone #1 overall when you don't have the ability to test them as thoroughly as everyone else has to raise some red flags.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yeah, like the fact that the Euroleague ended a month prior to the draft.



I really don't get why you're disputing this so much. Go back and look at the talk before the draft. There were questions whether Doncic was coming over right away, questions about his attitude, and it was also viewed as a red flag that he wouldn't come over to work out for anyone.

Here's a link to the post where talk of him staying in Europe started being discussed here...
https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/forum/posts/3709962/

Here's a link to that article directly, it's from May 17th 2018.

https://www.eurohoops.net/en/eurole...-in-europe-we-have-yet-to-make-this-decision/

I'm not disputing whether he's a great player now, he is, but the way you're trying to twist this is like Doncic should have been taken #1 and the Suns picking Ayton was against the grain.

No that’s not what I’m saying AT ALL. I’m saying it would be stupid to pass in a player, or to not do your total due diligence and potentially miss on the best player as a result, just bc he won’t come to the US. I’m not saying we should’ve drafted him. I don’t move goalposts. I was firmly behind drafting Ayton. But I’m not an nba team tasked with making the right decision with the resources to uncover who was the right choice. If they passed in him just bc he didn’t come here or bc it was in inconvenient for them, they’re idiots.

 

[BC867]

No that’s not what I’m saying AT ALL. I’m saying it would be stupid to pass in a player, or to not do your total due diligence and potentially miss on the best player as a result, just bc he won’t come to the US. I’m not saying we should’ve drafted him. I don’t move goalposts. I was firmly behind drafting Ayton. But I’m not an nba team tasked with making the right decision with the resources to uncover who was the right choice. If they passed in him just bc he didn’t come here or bc it was in inconvenient for them, they’re idiots.

It doesn't take the Ayton/Doncic debate to realize that the Suns leadership have
indeed been idiots, in every decision that has been made since Jerry put the team
in the hands of Robert Sarver, but his billion dollar windfall wasn't enough.

Sarver became the de facto General Manager and the GM was his assistant. The same
with his Head Coach. The guy calling the shots is indeed an NBA "idiot". The one who
met with Doncic in Europe. And came back empty handed.

 

[Mainstreet]

The Rockets have filed a protest over Harden's dunk that was not counted against the Spurs.

I'm with the Rockets on this one because the referees blew it. How do you not count a legitimate basket.

The protest is based on the misapplication of the rules regarding that a made basket is worth two points and the score was not recorded correctly, sources said. The Rockets contend that this does not involve a judgment call by officials.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28232954/rockets-file-protest-loss-spurs-james-harden-dunk