The 2019-2020 Around the NBA thread

[Finito]

How many Warriors games have you seen over the last couple of years? Green is the heart of that team, he's also their primary playmaker on offense, and their best defender. Doing all of that allowed Steph, Klay, and KD to concentrate on scoring. KD's gone but that just means they'll need Green to step it up a bit more.

There was talk of the Warriors having to choose between KD or Draymond this offseason when they were feuding early in the season. That idea isn't even discussed if Draymond was just their Rodman.

Comparing him to Rodman is ridiculous. Rodman was a great piece for the Bulls but the Bulls proved they could win championships without him, he just made the path easier. Green is much more the Pippen of Warriors than Rodman. He often guards the opposing teams best player, handles the ball a lot, and is relied on to get the offense going when Steph's having trouble getting it going. Green isn't asked to score in place of Steph but he is asked to get buckets somehow, and he usually does that by finding the open man for an easy basket.

You don't have to like Green, most people don't, but to discount what he does for the Warriors only shows that you haven't watched many Warriors games. I'd say he's overpaid if he got that much from another team but to the Warriors, that's what he's worth, perhaps even more.

I live in the Bay Area and have for the last 4 years because of work(Sunnyvale 10 minutes from the 49er stadium)

I’ve seen plenty of Warrior games and trust me when the talk was Durant or Green not one single person here was saying keep Green. I would say Durant and Thompson are both better defenders.

Not a GM in the NBA would choose Green over Durant.

I love the “heart and Soul” guys online. I live in the real world and am gonna go ahead and say Kevin Durant is more important on any team ever when it’s between him and Draymond Green.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Lol no he is not the most important player on the team. He’s a nice role player. Durant and Steph are generational talents. That’s like saying Rodman was more important than Pippen and Jordan.

“A nice role player” - cmon. That’s a ridiculous statement. As a role player he’s likely one of the very best to have ever been pegged in that role.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I live in the Bay Area and have for the last 4 years because of work(Sunnyvale 10 minutes from the 49er stadium)

I’ve seen plenty of Warrior games and trust me when the talk was Durant or Green not one single person here was saying keep Green. I would say Durant and Thompson are both better defenders.

Not a GM in the NBA would choose Green over Durant.

I love the “heart and Soul” guys online. I live in the real world and am gonna go ahead and say Kevin Durant is more important on any team ever when it’s between him and Draymond Green.

You’re living in the past. Durant is gone. It never became a green or Durant choice. This is about green’s current contract and the value to the warriors moving forward.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The Warriors have some nice players but it is Curry's team. They do not win all those championships without him.

While it is absolutely Curry’s team, I doubt they win those championships without green either.

 

[Mainstreet]

While it is absolutely Curry’s team, I doubt they win those championships without green either.

It goes without saying. The same with Klay Thompson. However, Curry makes it possible.

 

[Finito]

You’re living in the past. Durant is gone. It never became a green or Durant choice. This is about green’s current contract and the value to the warriors moving forward.

Not really that’s what we are talking about. I’m not talking about green and Durant moving forward why would I do that Durant isn’t there?

I thought this was about me and him talking about who was more important to GS’s championship run Durant or Green silly me

 

[Finito]

“A nice role player” - cmon. That’s a ridiculous statement. As a role player he’s likely one of the very best to have ever been pegged in that role.

I agree he’s up there with the best role players of all time. Right guy right place.

 

[Raze]

Interesting discussion on Green and Co. So what do you guys think was the order of importance for all 4 on last year's team? To be even more specific, what do you guys think the share percentage breakdown is?

My order of importance goes:

1. Kevin Durant
2. Klay Thompson
3. Steph Curry
4. Draymond Green

My share percentage breakdown for value (100 total, every player is at least a 1):

30 Durant
20 Klay
19 Steph
18 Green
13 to essentially the rest of the team.

This was actually tough for me to do. I'm not mega confident on it. That said, I value defense about equal to offense, which is why I value Klay and Green so much. KD is easily 50% more than the value of the others, but I took a conservative estimation.

 

[Phrazbit]

They were like .500 when Curry didn’t play and they won virtually all their games without Durant. There is no way Durant was more important than Curry.

I feel like finto is only arguing about who is more talented, and obviously Durant is a better player than Green. But Green does stuff that no one else does on that team and at an elite level. They won 73 games and a title without Durant, they didn’t need him at all.

Durant is the better player to build a team around but the Warriors were already an all time great team and if Green is removed then a lot of what makes that team great is gone.

 

[Raze]

They were like .500 when Curry didn’t play and they won virtually all their games without Durant. There is no way Durant was more important than Curry.

I feel like finto is only arguing about who is more talented, and obviously Durant is a better player than Green. But Green does stuff that no one else does on that team and at an elite level. They won 73 games and a title without Durant, they didn’t need him at all.

Durant is the better player to build a team around but the Warriors were already an all time great team and if Green is removed then a lot of what makes that team great is gone.

You could easily argue that the compilation of Steph/Klay/Green>Durant. However, there's just absolutely no way that you could argue that Steph or any other of those individuals is better than Durant. Even to the GS team.

If you separated the 4 to 4 cruddy teams like NY, PHX, Memphis, and Cleveland: which player wins the most games? Answer: Whoever gets Durant. Durant makes any team an instant contender. The other three barely move the needle. Those three are the quintessential example of "the whole is greater than the parts".

And to be more accurate about their first title, they were gifted it with the losses of Kyrie and Love (which was proven the following year). Lebron almost single handedly beat that 2016 GS team. Like Toronto this year, they still are the champs, but the title has more asterisks than majority of the other 72 titles in NBA history. (All Title have asterisks. Some are just bigger than others).

 

[Hoop Head]

They were like .500 when Curry didn’t play and they won virtually all their games without Durant. There is no way Durant was more important than Curry.

I feel like finto is only arguing about who is more talented, and obviously Durant is a better player than Green. But Green does stuff that no one else does on that team and at an elite level. They won 73 games and a title without Durant, they didn’t need him at all.

Durant is the better player to build a team around but the Warriors were already an all time great team and if Green is removed then a lot of what makes that team great is gone.

I'd add to this that it was when Green was suspended for game 5 in the 2016 finals is when the Cavs were able to rally and turn that series around. Most basketball analysts and fans have mentioned that if Green doesn't get suspended in that series the Warriors would have closed it out. Instead he got suspended, the Cavs won game 5, making it 2-3 at the time, and they had momentum in their favor heading back to Cleveland for game 6, where they evened things up. The Cavs then won game 7 but there probably wouldn't have been a game 7 if Green didn't get suspended.

 

[Phrazbit]

You could easily argue that the compilation of Steph/Klay/Green>Durant. However, there's just absolutely no way that you could argue that Steph or any other of those individuals is better than Durant. Even to the GS team.

If you separated the 4 to 4 cruddy teams like NY, PHX, Memphis, and Cleveland: which player wins the most games? Answer: Whoever gets Durant. Durant makes any team an instant contender. The other three barely move the needle. Those three are the quintessential example of "the whole is greater than the parts".

But that isn't the question. You're arguing about Durant being a great player and it makes him more important... meanwhile the stats don't lie. They were WAAAAY worse when Curry went out and when Durant was out they were fine. You remove Green from the equation and now they've lost their best defender, their best rebounder and arguably their best playmaker.

Durant was more important than Klay Thompson, I'll give you that, but I think if you remove EITHER, Curry or Green from those Warriors teams and Durant is still there that they don't win squadoosh.

Furthermore... you're underrating Curry big time, saying he would barely move the needle is nuts. He's had a better career than Durant and will likely continue to do so.

So... again, this isn't about "who is the most talented?", this is about the Warriors and we've actually SEEN the answer. The Warriors are an all-time great team WITHOUT Durant, but when Curry or Green have been removed from the equation they have struggled mightily.

 

[Raze]

But that isn't the question. You're arguing about Durant being a great player and it makes him more important... meanwhile the stats don't lie. They were WAAAAY worse when Curry went out and when Durant was out they were fine. You remove Green from the equation and now they've lost their best defender, their best rebounder and arguably their best playmaker.

Durant was more important than Klay Thompson, I'll give you that, but I think if you remove EITHER, Curry or Green from those Warriors teams and Durant is still there that they don't win squadoosh.

Furthermore... you're underrating Curry big time, saying he would barely move the needle is nuts. He's had a better career than Durant and will likely continue to do so.

So... again, this isn't about "who is the most talented?", this is about the Warriors and we've actually SEEN the answer. The Warriors are an all-time great team WITHOUT Durant, but when Curry or Green have been removed from the equation they have struggled mightily.

In the last three years including playoffs they are:

6-12 without Klay (.333)
29-24 without Steph (.547)
24-10 without Green (.706)
35-13 without KD (.729)

*I unofficially tallied them, they could be off.

They are a far worse team without Klay, which everyone in the world seems to ignore. (I'm admittedly a bigger Klay fan than most.) Plus, you could see in the Finals that Steph just couldn't do it without Klay. He got a good taste of what this upcoming year is going to be like.

They did quite a bit better than "squadoosh" without Green . But, I would also submit that Green's and Durant's numbers are weak due to the fact that they can somewhat compensate for the others loss due to their similar positions (which included Iggy), while Steph and Klay don't have a star sub behind them. This, of course, makes it impossible to see how valuable they really are as individuals to the whole.

Maybe I should clarify my point: as a ********* they are great. However if you remove one of them they are ordinary.

And we get to test this theory out. They are going into the season with JUST Steph and Green and we'll see how good they are. As is, I don't see them making the playoffs. (If they do, I WILL be very impressed)

 

[95pro]

They could stick another 3-5 starter in there and still win without Green. On the flip side the Raptors just proved how overrated he is. Without Klay or Durant, he did not elevate his game or anyone else, he actually looked worse out there.

 

[Carolinacacti]

three more years and Golden State will be saying he is an expiring contract. How old will he be and what shape will he be in?

 

[Phrazbit]

They could stick another 3-5 starter in there and still win without Green. On the flip side the Raptors just proved how overrated he is. Without Klay or Durant, he did not elevate his game or anyone else, he actually looked worse out there.

Huh? He posted a triple double in game 6, if Golden State had won that series (and it was a damn close series) Green probably would have been finals MVP.

 

[Mainstreet]

Some great stuff on Gregg Popovich coaching Team USA.

It seems preposterous, but Popovich might be the star of this Team USA roster. When a Chinese film crew told him that he will be the most recognized member of the team when he is in China for the World Cup next month, he naturally waved them off. But they weren't necessarily incorrect.

Without proven superstars, Team USA is probably going to have to be carried at times by a system. The Americans can't rely on the tremendous driving ability of LeBron James or world-class shot-creators such as Kevin Durant or James Harden in this cycle. The mega-stars are not here. They'll lean on a coach who believes in a style that tests players' aptitude, selflessness and sense of humor.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27343815/what-gregg-popovich-doing-coaching-team-usa

 

[GatorAZ]

I'd add to this that it was when Green was suspended for game 5 in the 2016 finals is when the Cavs were able to rally and turn that series around. Most basketball analysts and fans have mentioned that if Green doesn't get suspended in that series the Warriors would have closed it out. Instead he got suspended, the Cavs won game 5, making it 2-3 at the time, and they had momentum in their favor heading back to Cleveland for game 6, where they evened things up. The Cavs then won game 7 but there probably wouldn't have been a game 7 if Green didn't get suspended.

Speaking of that game 7-
Green: 32 pts / 15 rbs / 9 ast / .955 TS%
Curry: 17 pts / 5 rbs / 2 ast / .437 TS%
Klay: 14 pts / 2 rbs / 2 ast / .412 TS%

Dray actually went toe to toe with LBJ that night...

 

[Dr. Jones]

He would have gotten more than that on the open market. That is about what Dr. J wanted to pay Oubre.

Close. I was willing to go to 20 or 22.5 per year for KO. It's not the max, but does protect his interests, our long term cap and his attitude for the long haul. You pay the 4th best guy on a title team about that much IMO. 2 or 3 at the max, the third maybe a bit under max, and the 4th...... roughly 20mil. That's where the NBA is right now IMO. I see Booker & Ayton as our max guys, we just have to hope they grow. One more Max FA, and then Oubre and a bunch of solid role guys.

Draymond is a former defensive player of the year. One of the chief architects of their attitude and swag. And one of the scrappiest 4 (or 5) position defenders of the past decade. Plus, he is an above average passer and ball handler at his position as well.

I do think they are getting a home-team discount on this deal though. Even though the last two years look rough IMO, Draymond could have probably gotten a bit more on the opening market.

 

[Mainstreet]

I guess former Sun Sebastian Telfair picked the wrong jurisdiction to carry a loaded handgun in his vehicle.

A former Phoenix Suns player was sentenced Monday to more than three years in prison after being convicted earlier this year of carrying a loaded handgun in his pickup truck.

"The mandatory prison sentence he received today is required by law and he has now been held accountable for the unlawful conduct," Brooklyn District Attorney Eric Gonzalez said in a statement.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/spo...more-than-3-years-prison-gun-case/1996430001/

 

[Hoop Head]

I guess former Sun Sebastian Telfair picked the wrong jurisdiction to carry a loaded handgun in his vehicle.






https://www.azcentral.com/story/spo...more-than-3-years-prison-gun-case/1996430001/

I liked him when he was here. I know he had a bit of a bad reputation when he came here but he fell in line and played backup PG quite well, compared to what we had prior to him. He was never going to live up to the hype he had entering the league but it seemed like it clicked for him in his time as a Sun that he could have a decent career as a role playing backup but it seemed like his time in Phoenix was the exception as far as he resorted to thinking he was better than he was as soon as his deal was up.

In looking up more info on this incident though it appears he had a previous offense in 2007 for criminal possession of a weapon, which was him having a handgun during another traffic stop. He received 3 years probation for that so he should have known better. Here's a link to that, it says the same thing that article does but mentions the other arrest at the bottom. He doesn't deserve 3 years in prison but he also needs to learn not to be driving around with a gun, especially when he's smoking pot, which is apparently what he was doing during this recent arrest.

 

[Mainstreet]

I liked him when he was here. I know he had a bit of a bad reputation when he came here but he fell in line and played backup PG quite well, compared to what we had prior to him. He was never going to live up to the hype he had entering the league but it seemed like it clicked for him in his time as a Sun that he could have a decent career as a role playing backup but it seemed like his time in Phoenix was the exception as far as he resorted to thinking he was better than he was as soon as his deal was up.

In looking up more info on this incident though it appears he had a previous offense in 2007 for criminal possession of a weapon, which was him having a handgun during another traffic stop. He received 3 years probation for that so he should have known better. Here's a link to that, it says the same thing that article does but mentions the other arrest at the bottom. He doesn't deserve 3 years in prison but he also needs to learn not to be driving around with a gun, especially when he's smoking pot, which is apparently what he was doing during this recent arrest.

It's ironic with all the gun related violence in the United States there is such a disparity of gun enforcement laws around the country.

This is what caught my attention.

I'm not sure where the 2007 arrest occurred.

 

[Hoop Head]

It's ironic with all the gun related violence in the United States there is such a disparity of gun enforcement laws around the country.

This is what caught my attention.

I'm not sure where the 2007 arrest occurred.

I decided to do some digging and apparently he pled guilty to that in 2008 but the original arrest was in Yonkers, New York. So this latest charge is more than likely the same jurisdiction. I know Yonkers is a suburb of sorts to New York City.

The article is from a Boston newspaper because he played for the Celtics then.

https://www.boston.com/sports/celtics-blog/2007/04/20/telfair_arreste


Semi-related, it appears in 2006, a year before his first weapons charge, he was robbed outside of a nightclub. Apparently someone was shot outside of that same club that night so he is kind of lucky he was only robbed.

Here is some pieces by ESPN regarding that...
https://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=2630170
and
https://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=2632410


It appears he finds himself around trouble a fair bit. I'm still surprised he'll serve 3+ years in prison given that he's a semi-celebrity but apparently New York doesn't care with their mandatory minimums.

 

[Hoop Head]

@Mainstreet I found this piece on Telfair on Yahoo, it's quite good and I thought you might want to give it a read. Sort of a summary of his career and then it dives in depth to the latest charges that landed him in prison.


https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/hes...of-the-sebastian-telfair-story-020931278.html

 

[Mainstreet]

I decided to do some digging and apparently he pled guilty to that in 2008 but the original arrest was in Yonkers, New York. So this latest charge is more than likely the same jurisdiction. I know Yonkers is a suburb of sorts to New York City.

The article is from a Boston newspaper because he played for the Celtics then.

https://www.boston.com/sports/celtics-blog/2007/04/20/telfair_arreste


Semi-related, it appears in 2006, a year before his first weapons charge, he was robbed outside of a nightclub. Apparently someone was shot outside of that same club that night so he is kind of lucky he was only robbed.

Here is some pieces by ESPN regarding that...
https://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=2630170
and
https://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=2632410


It appears he finds himself around trouble a fair bit. I'm still surprised he'll serve 3+ years in prison given that he's a semi-celebrity but apparently New York doesn't care with their mandatory minimums.

The gun laws in New York are very strict. He should have known better especially after being placed on probation for the first gun violation after he was arrested in 2007.

What I found interesting is the variation of gun laws around the country. If the U.S. ever decides to get serious about gun regulation they should look at jurisdictions like New York.