The #5 Pick Conundrum

Mitch

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The Cardinals are---in one sense---in an envious position because they will draft early at the top of the draft and in every round, save the 7th, but---not in another sense---in that the draft is not deep or especially talented in their need areas (QB, OLB, T).

Anytime you don't know for sure who your starting QB is going to be and you are picking in the top 5 of the draft, it behooves you to think QB with that pick. Mike Mayock said it best this past week. He is high on Blaine Gabbert---thinks that Gabbert can be compared to Sam Bradford and Matt Ryan.

But then you go and look at the breakdown of Gabbert's play and his stats at Mizzou...and numerous concerns emerge. His stats are not anywhere near comparable to the college stats and successes of Bradford's and Ryan's---and Gabbert threw the ball much more often than they did.

There's plenty to like about Gabbert's arm and his physcial size---but then again the same could be said about Ryan Leaf, Alex Smith and David Carr.

Meanwhile---the Cardinals defense lacks the big-time edge rusher it has needed for the past four years---and there ARE some good options there---which---by closer examination also presents a conundrum of sorts.

The Cardinals drafted two undersized LBers last year in Daryl Washington and O'Brien Schofield. Do they risk drafting a third in speed freak edge maniac Von Miller?

If Ray Horton thinks that Schofield can play the strong side (seems small by the typical standards)...and that Washington will fill out perfectly for the WILB position, then adding Miller would be a boon.

The great news about Miller beyond his uncanny speed and quickness is that this kid's character and leadership are impeccable---these are two areas that the Cardinals need to improve significantly in, as the current group of defensive players seem to think they can take certain Sundays and Monday nights off.

When you think about it---how many top ten prospects like Von Miller would have abided by his commitment to play in the Senior Bowl?

The fact that he took the difficult route---just taking on a week of hard practices and constant media scrutiny when all he really had to do is conduct his own private workout for scouts and while in gym shorts blaze that superior speed and quickness of his---and he would still secure a top spot in the draft.

Von Miller added a special dignity to this year's Senior Bowl. And he did it with class---he didn't grandstand or flaunt his wares...he just showed up and kicked butt.

If there's ever a time when the Cardinals need a defensive player to come in, show up and kick butt, it is now...especially at such a position of utter and crucial need.

However, when Keith Butler outlined the Steeler criteria for OLBers he was adamant in pointing out you need guys who can bull rush and show a burst around the corner.

Von Miller is not a bull rusher---he doesn't have the upper or lower body makeup or the strength. He's a speed guy all the way.

Which leads to yet another conundrum...most of the time in passing situations the Cardinals will be in a 4-2-5 defense. Can Von Miller be effective as a RDE in a four man rush?

Note: It's imprtant for RDEs in a four man rush to keep strong in his lane...because if he gets tossed way too wide it leaves a gaping hole in the pocket that the QB can easily avoid or escape pressure through.

If you ascribe to Butler's philosophy---and there's great wisdom in it...you want a bigger, stronger, thicker player a la Woodley and Harrison...who provide the team with the ultimate luxury as edge players who you don't ever have to take off the field and will always generate pressure on the QB either at OLB or at DE.

The OLB/DE first round propects who fit that bill in this draft are Robert Quinn, Ryan Kerrigan, Aldon Smith and Justin Houston...and beyond---to a lesser extent for one reason or another---are Akeem Ayers, Sam Acho, Jeremy Beal, Jabaal Sheard, Mark Herzlich, Brooks Reed, Donte Moch, Cliff Matthews and Wayne Daniels.

I left Da'Quan Bowers out of this mix because it would be surprising if he wasn't taken in the first 4 picks (could well be the #1 or #2 pick)...and Bowers, at his size, is a 43 DE, not a 34 OLB.

That said, because Bowers could be a monster rusher in your 4 man rush (which these days teams play more often than not), if he is available, he's well worth the pick.

But let's take a look at the 4 top candidates:

Robert Quinn: Has the physcial package you want---can speed and bull rush---plays the run well---etc. But---hasn't played competitive football in well over a year because of a season-long suspension. Just because of that---is this a guy you can risk paying top 5 money to?

Ryan Kerrigan: Best bull rusher in the draft...but is not a speed threat, although his redirection quickness to the ball is superb. High character player and leader who plays his heart out every play. Recorded 33.5 sacks and 14 forced fumbles at Purdue and often had to beat double teams to do so. But, the questions are whether he can play standing up as a 34 SOLB...does he have the lateral quickness and agility? He certainly has the tenacity. And...because of the 34 OLB questions and the fact that he's not a speed rusher, no pundit will grade or project him as a top ten pick, let alone top 5. So, if you stay put and take him, the choice will be met with scrutiny...not that this should be a factor, but sometimes it is.

Aldon Smith: Young, raw and absolutlely explosive. He too will have to learn how to be a standup OLB...but can slide immediately into the role of a hand down RDE in the 4 man rush---and get this---at Mizzou, at times they even kicked him down to RDT in the 4 man rush where his quickness was at times unstoppable. In terms of the total package physcially, this kid is the best of the batch---but the questions are how fast can he learn and adapt to the NFL game and can he hold up physically and avoid the injury bug which cost him a number of games last year?

Justin Houston: Also young and somewhat raw (not nearly as raw as Smith), but has an amazingly quick first step. Gets off the ball with a flash. Has good strength holding his edge. Doesn't get pushed too wide of the pocket---like Miller does quite frequently. Played standing up at Georgia this past year and thrived in that role. Led the SEC in sacks...in one game he had 2 sacks, a forced fumble, a fumble recovery and a game sealing interception pick six. If he doesn't come out early this year, he could have positioned himself to be a top ten pick next year. Do the Cardinals realize that and take him at #5, when most mocks will have him going in the late teens at the earliest?

Here are the potential 5 OLB studs in this draft...if the Cardinals wait to take an OLB instead in the second round, as they tried to do two years ago with Cody Brown, they may be able to take a solid player...but not one who likely will ever threaten the sack leaders in the NFL.

The conundrum does not stop here obviously...because of the what ifs...

The players who might slide to #5:

QB Cam Newton
DT Nick Fairley
CB Patrick Peterson
WR A.J. Green

Newton is loaded with talent---but is he a fit for Whiz's offense? I think he is---but would Whiz? However, there are the character concerns---and everyone is leery of Vince Young's situation in Tennessee.

Fairley also is loaded with talent---but he clashed with coaches at Auburn and he had off the field issues. He may have more bust potential than any player in this draft---especially when he gets his hand on all the money that comes with being a top 10 pick.

Peterson is dynamic in press coverage and on punt returns. He's a potential game changer. But---several scouts are convinced he's an NFL safety, not a CB. The Cardinals have been there, done that and bought the t-shirt, albeit with a less talented player athletically who did not make the STs explosive---but a top 10 pick none-the-less.

And Green is the one WR in this draft that is totally electrifying. With the WR situation suddenly in flux...taking Green wouldn't have anyone scratching their heads...especially if the coaches state prior to the draft that they think John Skelton is the young QBOF and that the intention is to sign a veteran and play him until Skelton is ready.

But you take any of these potential BPAs...and you are likely looking at another inadequate pass rush...especially now that the Raiders have the option for this year on Kamerion Wimbley.

Therein lies the conundrum.

In your opinion what's the best solution?

I think that if the Cardinals go in a different direction than OLB at #5, they need to do all they can to trade up back into the first round to take one of the stud edge pass rushers. Doing that in this draft may not be very easy at all and it would cost a couple of very high picks.
 
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Buckybird

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Thanks for all your thoughts Mitch.

Mitch, I too am worried about the size factor in our LB corp if we add Miller to Shoefield & DWash. The formula in Pittsburgh, Baltimore, GB, SD, etc says you must have a stout OLB group & those guys have been running that D for years. I like Miller as an athlete just not as a complete 3-4 OLB & think we're asking for trouble if we draft him. If he's there at #5 I do think he will be the pick though. :bang:

I like Houston at #5 & IMO he will get even better with more time standing up. If the Cards like him & believe in him pick the guy you want regardless if scouts and insiders have him going 15 or 25...I really believe the Pats will be all over this guy. IMO Houston has the speed & first step that Quinn lacks even though I would take Quinn too. Houston, has LaMarr Woodley written all over him.

I wouldn't mind Green be the pick either because he's the speed guy this offense will need once Breaston walks this year. But...I sure would like to see Justin Blackmon from OSU playing WR for the Cards next year...WOW he's good!!!
 
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Rats

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IMO, if you pass on the Qb then you take the DB Peterson. Does anyone think it is possible we could take Jake Locker with our 1st pick in the second rd as BPA? That would make for an exciting top of the draft with talent on both sides of the ball. Locker may be gone though and if you take DB you probably need to take the best LB or OT at the top of the 2nd rd. If Skelton is indeed the future and we grab a vet until he is ready then Green would not be a terrible pick at #5. Hard to ignore that we need a pass rushing LB but not sure we get one in the early part of the draft. Goes without saying that with holes at QB, LB, OL, and possibly Cb whomever we select will be an upgrade over what we had last season.
 
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Mitch

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Thanks for all your thoughts Mitch.

Mitch, I too am worried about the size factor in our LB corp if we add Miller to Shoefield & DWash. The formula in Pittsburgh, Baltimore, GB, SD, etc says you must have a stout OLB group & those guys have been running that D for years. I like Miller as an athlete just not as a complete 3-4 OLB & think we're asking for trouble if we draft him. If he's there at #5 I do think he will be the pick though. :bang:

I like Houston at #5 & IMO he will get even better with more time standing up. If the Cards like him & believe in him pick the guy you want regardless if scouts and insiders have him going 15 or 25...I really believe the Pats will be all over this guy. IMO Houston has the speed & first step that Quinn lacks even though I would take Quinn too. Houston, has LaMarr Woodley written all over him.

I wouldn't mind Green be the pick either because he's the speed guy this offense will need once Breaston walks this year. But...I sure would like to see Justin Blackmon from OSU playing WR for the Cards next year...WOW he's good!!!

Bucky, if Horton thinks like Butler, and Horton has a say in whom the Cardinals pick, Miller most likely won't be the #5. He doesn't fit the mold when other OLB prospects like Houston do.

However, it's possible that Butler could have a special plan for a player like Miller (that is if he thinks he's head and shoulder the best OLB in the draft)...and if Horton's on board with the pick, then we can feel all the more great about it.
 

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Mitch-----my biggest fear this 2011 off-season, is that the same conundrum that we face with the #5 pick will be what we face in each round of the draft, (and in free-agency if there is such a thing). I can forsee a situation wherein each position coach strives to sell the HC on the idea of taking this person, or that person, each seeming to tout that person as the one to strengthen that position, (yet no one aspiring to have an overall workable plan to fix what really needs to be fixed as a team). I almost hope that there is either a huge effort to fix the offense, or a huge effort made to fix the defense, because fixing both may be too far out of the range of possibility for one off-season.

In any event, I hope that Whizenhunt is able to set down with the position coaches, the Co-ordinators, and the Front-Office, and establish a plan that REALLY does fix at least one part of our game. We have great special teams, and it would be really nice to come into this next season with great special teams, and a great defense, (or great special teams and a greatly improved offense).

I just don't want to see everyone pushsing for players that, (while they may be very formidable as individuals), do not make real and solid contributions to either improve the scoring, or to cut down on scores allowed.
 

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You "conundrum-ed" us real good, Mitch.

It's the CBA and its effect on planning that creates the confusion for me. If a new agreement is in place, we'll have a better idea as to where the team stands on its QB future. That said; I'll take my chances on hitting the lottery with Heisman Newton if available, and Butkus Miller if not.
 
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ARodg

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Thanks for all your thoughts Mitch.

Mitch, I too am worried about the size factor in our LB corp if we add Miller to Shoefield & DWash. The formula in Pittsburgh, Baltimore, GB, SD, etc says you must have a stout OLB group & those guys have been running that D for years. I like Miller as an athlete just not as a complete 3-4 OLB & think we're asking for trouble if we draft him. If he's there at #5 I do think he will be the pick though. :bang:

I like Houston at #5 & IMO he will get even better with more time standing up. If the Cards like him & believe in him pick the guy you want regardless if scouts and insiders have him going 15 or 25...I really believe the Pats will be all over this guy. IMO Houston has the speed & first step that Quinn lacks even though I would take Quinn too. Houston, has LaMarr Woodley written all over him.

I wouldn't mind Green be the pick either because he's the speed guy this offense will need once Breaston walks this year. But...I sure would like to see Justin Blackmon from OSU playing WR for the Cards next year...WOW he's good!!!

Green Bay has only been running the 3-4 for 3 years and I don't think that Jones/Walden/Zombo is good against the run.
 

Buckybird

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Green Bay has only been running the 3-4 for 3 years and I don't think that Jones/Walden/Zombo is good against the run.

I would take those guys plus Matthews over our stickmen LB corp anyday. Yeah they were middle of the Pack :D but where did our clowns end up? I'd take Capers over Horton anyday too, they will only get better after 3 years.
 

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I would take those guys plus Matthews over our stickmen LB corp anyday. Yeah they were middle of the Pack :D but where did our clowns end up? I'd take Capers over Horton anyday too, they will only get better after 3 years.

You give Walden and Zombo too much credit. They were the stand out performers at two open tryouts held at Lambeau the Wednesday before their debut. they weren't middle of the pack.

They're one of the reasons that I pray nightly that Justin Houston falls to pick #32.

Back on topic though the Packers D in terms of stopping the run is predicated on teams having to run through our D-Line which for my money is the best in the NFL.

Jenkins is one of if not the best 3-4 DE, and Pickett is a NT, that is quick enough to play DE. Both are impossible to move off the ball, and if it wasn't for Capers love of the 2 D-Lineman and Matthews on the LOS, the Packers probably would have been one of the best run defenses like they were last year.
 
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Mitch

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You "conundrum-ed" us real good, Mitch.

It's the CBA and its effect on planning that creates the confusion for me. If a new agreement is in place, we'll have a better idea as to where the team stands on its QB future. That said; I'll take my chances on hitting the lottery with Heisman Newton if available, and Butkus Miller if not.

Hey, CC. I would be OK with your scenario as well. There's a lot of upside in both players.

BTW...what do you think of the Bruins' chances to win the Stanley Cup?

I trust your expert opinion.
 

john h

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You "conundrum-ed" us real good, Mitch.

It's the CBA and its effect on planning that creates the confusion for me. If a new agreement is in place, we'll have a better idea as to where the team stands on its QB future. That said; I'll take my chances on hitting the lottery with Heisman Newton if available, and Butkus Miller if not.

The #1 conundrum our team has is to find a starting QB. How and where I do not know. I think we all know that was our largest problem last year and nothing has been done to fix it. Until we have a real QB we are destined for mediocrity no matter who we draft. No one position player can turn a team around other than a QB. Warner did it for us but I do not see any Warners out there.
 

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I would think in the 4-2-5 sets that Washington and Miller (if he were to be the draftee) would make a wonderful LB tandem. Both has the speed to cover a lot of ground in a 3rd and long situation, allowing for different pre and post snap looks.
 

Buckybird

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I would think in the 4-2-5 sets that Washington and Miller (if he were to be the draftee) would make a wonderful LB tandem. Both has the speed to cover a lot of ground in a 3rd and long situation, allowing for different pre and post snap looks.

they might not be in too many 3rd & longs against that run D :D

...Wait a minute teams convert them on that situation anyway :D
 

Broseph

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we have to wait for the combine as well. a lot of mock drafts will change post combine. i'm interested in seeing if von miller can continue his monster-like athletic ability into the combine. i've heard rumblings that VM may even go as early as #3 to buffalo.
 

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However, when Keith Butler outlined the Steeler criteria for OLBers he was adamant in pointing out you need guys who can bull rush and show a burst around the corner.

Von Miller is not a bull rusher---he doesn't have the upper or lower body makeup or the strength. He's a speed guy all the way.

Which leads to yet another conundrum...most of the time in passing situations the Cardinals will be in a 4-2-5 defense. Can Von Miller be effective as a RDE in a four man rush?
No he won't be. And since we use a 4-2-5 using Wilson as a hybrid LB on passing downs, he won't be valuable enough. He would pretty much start out as a specialist 3rd down guy and he just wouldn't fit in here.

If you ascribe to Butler's philosophy---and there's great wisdom in it...you want a bigger, stronger, thicker player a la Woodley and Harrison...who provide the team with the ultimate luxury as edge players who you don't ever have to take off the field and will always generate pressure on the QB either at OLB or at DE.

The OLB/DE first round propects who fit that bill in this draft are Robert Quinn, Ryan Kerrigan, Aldon Smith and Justin Houston...and beyond---to a lesser extent for one reason or another---are Akeem Ayers, Sam Acho, Jeremy Beal, Jabaal Sheard, Mark Herzlich, Brooks Reed, Donte Moch, Cliff Matthews and Wayne Daniels.
Agree totally these should be the targets.
I left Da'Quan Bowers out of this mix because it would be surprising if he wasn't taken in the first 4 picks (could well be the #1 or #2 pick)...and Bowers, at his size, is a 43 DE, not a 34 OLB.

That said, because Bowers could be a monster rusher in your 4 man rush (which these days teams play more often than not), if he is available, he's well worth the pick.

Agree Bowers if he fell is well worth that pick. And fits our rush scheme perfectly.



In your opinion what's the best solution?

I think that if the Cardinals go in a different direction than OLB at #5, they need to do all they can to trade up back into the first round to take one of the stud edge pass rushers. Doing that in this draft may not be very easy at all and it would cost a couple of very high picks.

I think right now the top 4 could go.

1-Fairely
2-Peterson
3-Gabbart
4-Green

That leaves Bowers, Miller and Quinn as legitimate #5's who would be on the Cards' radar. To me the obvious choice should be Bowers.

Now if you substitute Bowers as one of the top 4 picks, then one of the other 4 along with Miller and Quinn drop to us. I think that pick would be one of the top 4 listed above.

So at 5, if the Cards are forced to make a choice there, IMO they should go with the any of the 5 BPA's available or trade out of that pick. If they absolutely can't trade it than - pick Fairely, Peterson, Gabbart, Green or Bowers. That's how I play it. One of those or trade out.

I think if it came to it, a four man line of Dockett , Fairley, Williams and Campbell could do some damage on a consistent basis. Maybe even Marcell Dareus if he starts to work into the mix with a superior combine.

But if it's Fairley who falls and we make the pick you'd need to commit again to a 4-3 and draft a legit MLB.

So there are multiple issues at work here, if indeed they stick to a predominantly 4-2-5 set on third and passing downs. That is the true conundrum.
 
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Cbus cardsfan

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I agree Mitch and have been sating that as well, this is the worst year for the Cards to have a top 5 pick because the positiions don't match the needs. There is no asure QB, no LT's at all, and DL, probably the one area where the Cards are set starting-wise, is the strength. OLB has question marks as well. Quinn hasn't played in a year, Smith is raw as can be, and as much as I like Miller, he was a mid-teen/early 20 pick before the Senior Bowl.

so here's my draft stratgey; instead of BPA, i'm going PPA and I'm sticking to it. That is my Cardinals draft for the first 3 rounds.

Peterson- most dynamic player in the draft. Who cares if he moves to safety. He could have a Polamalu type impact.

Ponder- Talent-wise he's as good as anyone. He's smarter than any other QB. His question is health. A year watching should get him healthy to take over.

Acho- Schoefield can man the rush position and Acho can take over for Haggans and become, hopefully, a Woodley type player.
 

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Good stuff Mitch.

I'm hoping that the combine helps clear up the muddied waters. If Mayock is still high on Gabbert after the combine then I'll drink a toast to drafting him with my crystal clear water.
 

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So there are multiple issues at work here, if indeed they stick to a predominantly 4-2-5 set on third and passing downs. That is the true conundrum.

The front four last season was normally Haggans,Dockett,Campbell,Porter.

More a 2-4-5 than a 4-2-5.

Teams ran on it for first downs several times.

Either way I like the idea of the 5 being DRC,Tolar,Rhodes,Johnson,and Peterson/Prince.
 

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The front four last season was normally Haggans,Dockett,Campbell,Porter.

More a 2-4-5 than a 4-2-5.

Teams ran on it for first downs several times.

Either way I like the idea of the 5 being DRC,Tolar,Rhodes,Johnson,and Peterson/Prince.


At such a valuable position as NFL CB, you could do a lot worse than adding Amakamura as a legitimate #5 option. He's a legit top 10 pick, and has been all along.

Most call him the top cover corner and that alone improves the pass rush.
 
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