The Ayton Plan

[GatorAZ]

Robinson won a scoring title so he was definitely a force to be reckoned with but he wasn’t Hakeem. Sean Elliott was a pretty lukewarm #2 guy.

 

[Cheesebeef]

He's got the keys already, I just don't see that changing for at least another season.

Same.

 

[Muggz]

There’s David Robinson “soft” at 10 FTs per game as a rookie and then there’s actual soft (Ayton’s < 3 FTs per game over every period of his career). So let’s maybe not try that silly comparison.

Hard to catch a foul when your first priority is to pass the ball out for a 3pt shooter. Hard to rebound when you have to defend the 3 point line and the little guy who drives to the rim and anyone who gets by Paul and Booker. Get the man some help he will prosper. Hes the 3rd maybe 4th option on the team atm. If you want him to be the 2nd option treat him like that.

 

[Raindog]

Yeah… there’s such a stark difference in great coaches and good coaches. Just last night, Kerr realized how much Draymond was killing them and sat him the majority of the 4th quarter and then did offense/defense substitutions with him.

Monty would never do that.

Yeah, I had the precise same reaction when that happened. Monty would have just sat on his hands and watched the game (most likely) escape from his grasp.

He's got the keys already, I just don't see that changing for at least another season.

Also, very likely true... unfortunately.

 

[Big Al]

Name a soft goofball he’s been successful with. Can’t name Rodman, that guy was a dawg’s dawg. Robinson, Duncan were pro’s pros. They came to work every day. No motivation issues. No shying away from contact.

As well I don't know what's in heart or desire of a player like Ayton or even a player like Dario Saric until how they perform on the court consistently, or if they are run of the mill or if they are inconsistently bad. Pop worked it well enough to win several championships banters with the talent he had. I coached high school varsity basketball which is way down the ladder compared to the NBA but I know all coaches do have a great responsibility as well as players to help develop those players to reach their ceiling or get as close as possible. Pop has been successful with the talent he was given. Now I'm not going call out what you repeatedly describe as soft goofballs because to reach this level of competition these players are or have a special talent. And the fact is Coach Pop has 5 championships to his credit.

Name a soft goofball he’s been successful with. Can’t name Rodman, that guy was a dawg’s dawg. Robinson, Duncan were pro’s pros. They came to work every day. No motivation issues. No shying away from contact.

Name a soft goofball he’s been successful with. Can’t name Rodman, that guy was a dawg’s dawg. Robinson, Duncan were pro’s pros. They came to work every day. No motivation issues. No shying away from contact.

Name a soft goofball he’s been successful with. Can’t name Rodman, that guy was a dawg’s dawg. Robinson, Duncan were pro’s pros. They came to work every day. No motivation issues. No shying away from contact.

Hard to catch a foul when your first priority is to pass the ball out for a 3pt shooter. Hard to rebound when you have to defend the 3 point line and the little guy who drives to the rim and anyone who gets by Paul and Booker. Get the man some help he will prosper. Hes the 3rd maybe 4th option on the team atm. If you want him to be the 2nd option treat him like that.

Exactly.

In David Robinson WORST season in terms of FTAs he averaged 3.3 per game or almost an ENTIRE free throw per game (0.8) better than any season of Ayton. And that was when Robinson was 37 years old.

When does free throws attempts make you tough center especially for a center(Ayton) whose 1st job is to set a hard pick for a sometimes hero ball playing Booker and other jump shooters. And I'm not totally critizing Booker because we need him to score consistently as 1st option as a offensive creator which the Suns don't have enough of. As Shamet's performance or lack of will tell you that.. The Suns sometimes will go to Ayton early on offense but will not continue and everyone in arena knows that so the opposition certainly does. Ayton can't pass to himself. The Suns love their 3's point shots but you got to have a mixture. If James Jones would have ever gotten Ayton a competent power forward to play next to him they could mix things up played physical & that would have been great. That would have forced the opponets to aggressively defend on the two of them and Ayton's free throw attempts would have increased. And on defense Ayton is backing up the guards playing so far out yet you want him rebounding. It is a wonder Ayton gets 10-11 boards a game. Crowder & Bridges never will rebound any where close to that. And now the Suns are wanting & drooling over Jermani Grant another 6-7 210 pound wing who can create his own shot but will never rebound as well at 4.1 rebounds this past season but 19 point per. Go figure.

 

[Big Al]

David Robinson had a huge reputation for being soft. Shaq would bring it up every chance he got. For some reason Shaq really didn’t like him and would just kill Robinson.

Then there’s the year he won the MVP and Dream embarrassed him in the playoffs. He’s really toyed with him.

And Rodman flamed out in SA if I remember right. Rodman also went out of his way to call Robinson soft and not a leader

Shaq and Hakeem both kicked Robinson's rear. Robinson scored but he was soft. But Duncan & him work well together.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Hard to catch a foul when your first priority is to pass the ball out for a 3pt shooter. Hard to rebound when you have to defend the 3 point line and the little guy who drives to the rim and anyone who gets by Paul and Booker. Get the man some help he will prosper. Hes the 3rd maybe 4th option on the team atm. If you want him to be the 2nd option treat him like that.

So many excuses. Now it’s not his fault he goes up soft and can’t average 3 FTs a game at any time in his career? Cmon, the eye test AND the stats back up the fact he’s soft in attacking the basket and drawing contact.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I don't about you but I don't know everything that goes on within the NBA coach's practices or the agendas he has to follow from his boss, what's the motivating factors for this player or that player as I'm not privy to all the ins and outs of the organization. As well I don't know what's in heart or desire of a player like Ayton or even a player like Dario Saric until how they perform on the court consistently or if they are inconsistent. I don't know for a fact and neither do you that Robinson or Duncan came to work every day, or if they had no motivational issues or if they never shied away from contact. Pop worked it well enough to win several championships banter with the talent he had. You make it sound that these two came in polished to the max and didn't need any instruction at all. I coached varsity basketball which is way down the ladder from the NBA but coaches have great responsibilities as well as players to help develop the players to reach their ceiling or get as close as to






Exactly.

When does free throws attempts make you tough center especially for a center(Ayton) whose 1st job is to set a hard pick for a sometimes hero ball playing Booker and other jump shooters. And I'm not totally critizing Booker because we need him to score consistently as 1st option as a offensive creator which the Suns don't have enough of. As Shamet's performance or lack of will tell you that.. The Suns sometimes will go to Ayton early on offense but will not continue and everyone in arena knows that so the opposition certainly does. Ayton can't pass to himself. The Suns love their 3's point shots but you got to have a mixture. If James Jones would ever get Ayton a competent power forward to play next to him they could mix things up & that would be great. That would force the opponets to aggressively defend on the two of them and Ayton's free throw attempts would increase. And on defense Ayton is backing up the guards playing so far out yet you want him rebounding. It is a wonder Ayton gets 10-11 boards a game. Crowder & Bridges never will rebound any where close to that. And now the Suns are wanting & drooling over Jermani Grant another 210 pound wing who can create his own shot but will never rebound as well at 4.1 rebounds this past season but 19 point per. Go figure

Go look at robinson and Duncan’s rookie years. Whatever coaching they had wasn’t what made them studs. They came in as studs. Superstar studs. And maybe you’re too young, or didn’t watch as much nba, when they were entering the league but no one, no one ever, questioned their work ethic. Can’t say that about Ayton. Do we know everything about these players? Of course not. Do see, read about, and are shown a ton about them? Yep. Certainly enough to put together portraits that speak broadly about them.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Shaq and Hakeem both kicked Robinson's rear. Robinson scored but he was soft. But Duncan & him work well together.

All four of them would’ve destroyed Ayton.

 

[Muggz]

All four of them would’ve destroyed Ayton.

Robinson, Yao Ming, Mourning and Embid all came into the league 2 to 4 years older than DA. That's a lot of dev time. Hakeem was older by a year a well.
He will never be as good as most of those guys but he not far off. Suns have never had a better center and probably wont again.
If you do compare the numbers he really isn't to far off from some of the best to do it.
Yes we expect more from him as a number 1 pick. But I haven't heard you or anyone give 1 single example of a trade that would make us better and or is even possible.
If he stays fine if he leaves fine I'm not gonna be here crying about it.
I still support the team

 

[Phrazbit]

Robinson gets a really unfair rap, the dude was not soft. Up until Duncan joined him he was stuck carrying some really iffy Spurs teams, surrounded by bad supporting talent and in an era loaded with super star big men. Even then, the only big who really gave him trouble was Hakeem, and he gave EVERYONE trouble.

In Robinson's first 7 seasons he had 6 head coaches... despite the Spurs winning 55 games per season. Really insane to look at. And a real wild mix at that, Tarkanian (for 20 games), John Lucas, the wildly hated Bob Hill and the mercurial Larry Brown.

His best teammate in that stretch was Sean Elliot. I love Arizona basketball, and Sean Elliot was a really solid pro, but if he is your second best player that is a problem. After Elliot it was... Avery Johnson? Yikes.

The instant Robinson got an elite teammate the Spurs were a title contender year after year.

This has been a message from the David Robinson Reputation Rehabilitation Society.

 

[Big Al]

Robinson, Yao Ming, Mourning and Embid all came into the league 2 to 4 years older than DA. That's a lot of dev time. Hakeem was older by a year a well.
He will never be as good as most of those guys but he not far off. Suns have never had a better center and probably wont again.
If you do compare the numbers he really isn't to far off from some of the best to do it.
Yes we expect more from him as a number 1 pick. But I haven't heard you or anyone give 1 single example of a trade that would make us better and or is even possible.
If he stays fine if he leaves fine I'm not gonna be here crying about it.
I still support the team

Muggz, when we lose Ayton for probably the garbage we'll get in return which will probably be another 205 pound 3 point shooting small forward who again like all our other forwards don't rebound this Ouchie Z Clown will be happy but I'm sure his negatively will continue on this board. Ayton had a recruiter as a college coach not a legimate coach in Sean Miller and with only 1 year of at that and that was his choice. He came to Suns again no great mentor or coach in place. The player's development is needed by the team & player by work they put in. Robinson wasn't a 19 raw with potential talent his rookie year comming into the league instead he was a 24 year Naval serviceman. Mourning had what 4 years of college experience. Embid only went 1 year to U of Kansas but was injured more often early in his career and it looked like he was going to be a bust but he got it together and is a top notch NBA Center now. It sometimes just takes Time, Work & Patience I'm just saying. GO SUNS!!!

 

[Big Al]

Robinson, Yao Ming, Mourning and Embid all came into the league 2 to 4 years older than DA. That's a lot of dev time. Hakeem was older by a year a well.
He will never be as good as most of those guys but he not far off. Suns have never had a better center and probably wont again.
If you do compare the numbers he really isn't to far off from some of the best to do it.
Yes we expect more from him as a number 1 pick. But I haven't heard you or anyone give 1 single example of a trade that would make us better and or is even possible.
If he stays fine if he leaves fine I'm not gonna be here crying about it.
I still support the team

That's it. You got it Muggz

 

[Western Font]

One of my favorite David Robinson stories is that during the 1999 finals he was eating at a restaurant in New York, and when he got up to leave the patrons applauded him. I don’t know if it’s apocryphal but I heard it in New York not too long after.

 

[Hoop Head]

It's virtually impossible to improve the team in terms of raw talent with the returns one usually gets from a sign and trade. There's just not enough leverage to get equal return. If Ayton is dealt by S&T, the Suns won't be as talented on paper. That's just the reality of it. If he's traded, I expect a lot of people to be angry because of fhat.

That's not to say they can't make the most of it and get a good return that helps them improve in various ways. Ayton is not some irreplaceable stud like Giannis. The Suns can get someone who produces the 15 points, 10 boards, and rim protection. This team didn't crumble when Ayton missed time due to various injuries this past season.

I can understand JJ and the Suns reluctance to pay DA max money because we don't need max production from the Center position and he's not giving us that either. I believe he's capable of doing so but for various reasons, he doesn't.

I don't envy their position this off-season. Odds are their best move would have been dealing him at the deadline. Hindsight is 20/20 though and we all thought we were on a championship run. The team would have had more leverage and it would have been easier to get talent in return.

 

[Ronin]

Hawks’ pursuit of Deandre Ayton in free agency gets major update

<p>Phoenix Suns star center Deandre Ayton was recently reported as a target for the Atlanta Hawks in free agency. Bleacher Report’s Jake Fischer put out that report, and

www.prosportsdaily.com

 

[GatorAZ]

Bill Duffy and Jake Fischer must have a text chain longer than this thread. He’s thrown out just about every team that could realistically acquire him. Maybe he’s right.

If Jones is smart he’s looking for a third team that could take Capela. Maybe OKC would take him for nothing because they need salary on their books to reach the cap floor and Capela isn’t a scrub. Atlanta sends us Collins for Ayton. The Hawks would need to take back roughly $30m.

Suns receive: Collins
Thunder receive: Capela
Hawks receive: Ayton, Craig, Favors

 

[AzStevenCal]

Bill Duffy and Jake Fischer must have a text chain longer than this thread. He’s thrown out just about every team that could realistically acquire him. Maybe he’s right.

If Jones is smart he’s looking for a third team that could take Capela. Maybe OKC would take him for nothing because they need salary on their books to reach the cap floor and Capela isn’t a scrub. Atlanta sends us Collins for Ayton. The Hawks would need to take back roughly $30m.

Suns receive: Collins
Thunder receive: Capela
Hawks receive: Ayton, Craig, Favors

Why would we want to make that deal? Collins is a step down from DA offensively and quite a step down defensively so all we're going to gain is a lesser salaried player. And between the two, even if Ayton gets the full max, he'll be less over compensated than Collins is IMO.

Collins and Capela might be fair trade value for Deandre but if we're giving Capela away, I just don't see the benefit of the deal.

 

[Cheesebeef]

What really blows here is that if Stix was still in fold, we’d probably be able to plunk him in at C next year and if Ayton really wanted out/we really didn’t want to pay him, coulda traded him to get a real PF/a another very good shot creator that would have really rounded out this team and not skipped much a beat.

 

[AzStevenCal]

What really blows here is that if Stix was still in fold, we’d probably be able to plunk him in at C next year and if Ayton really wanted out/we really didn’t want to pay him, coulda traded him to get a real PF/a another very good shot creator that would have really rounded out this team and not skipped much a beat.

Maybe he can eventually be more but right now I think Stix is a decent answer for a team in need of a backup center. I'm not sure we'd get enough for Ayton in a forced trade situation to compensate for the difference between Stix and DA.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Maybe he can eventually be more but right now I think Stix is a decent answer for a team in need of a backup center. I'm not sure we'd get enough for Ayton in a forced trade situation to compensate for the difference between Stix and DA.

I disagree. He looked fine the second he stepped on the court as a starter… as a second year guy who got zero PT before that point. In his 3rd year, I think he could be serviceable enough, if not outright solid, especially with a legit PF next to him from an Ayton trade.

The moment Monty actually gave him consistent minutes he ripped off a seven game run of 15/9, 11/14, 19/7, 19/12, 12/5, 19/14. While going 4-2, and almost beating Memphis in that run. That was with almost zero PT before. Would he put up those gaudy stats in perpetuity? Prob not, but he was immediately a great roll option for CP3 and a beast on the boards. Those skills weren’t going to disappear and didn’t when he got to the Pacers.

 

[Finito]

I disagree. He looked fine the second he stepped on the court as a starter… as a second year guy who got zero PT before that point. In his 3rd year, I think he could be serviceable enough, if not outright solid, especially with a legit PF next to him from an Ayton trade.

The moment Monty actually gave him consistent minutes he ripped off a seven game run of 15/9, 11/14, 19/7, 19/12, 12/5, 19/14. While going 4-2, and almost beating Memphis in that run. That was with almost zero PT before. Would he put up those gaudy stats in perpetuity? Prob not, but he was immediately a great roll option for CP3 and a beast on the boards. Those skills weren’t going to disappear and didn’t when he got to the Pacers.

He looked great in Indy. He was getting 13.4ppg/7.6rpg and shooting 37% from 3 in 24 minutes.

I think Stix is going to be really good. We could be on the verge of losing two of the best big men prospects we ever had.

 

[Cheesebeef]

He looked great in Indy. He was getting 13.4ppg/7.6rpg and shooting 37% from 3 in 24 minutes.

I think Stix is going to be really good. We could be on the verge of losing two of the best big men prospects we ever had.

Yup.

 

[GatorAZ]

Why would we want to make that deal? Collins is a step down from DA offensively and quite a step down defensively so all we're going to gain is a lesser salaried player. And between the two, even if Ayton gets the full max, he'll be less over compensated than Collins is IMO.

Collins and Capela might be fair trade value for Deandre but if we're giving Capela away, I just don't see the benefit of the deal.

I just like him more than the Grant/Poeltl/Nurkic types we talk about. I’d prefer Anunoby but I don’t think he gets moved.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I just like him more than the Grant/Poeltl/Nurkic types we talk about. I’d prefer Anunoby but I don’t think he gets moved.

Same.