The Ayton Plan

[Finito]

Imagine not being able to dominate the paint vs the likes of Maxi Kleber and Davis Bertans. Even Luka outrebounded this dude who is self-proclaimed Shaq 2.0 and “patterns his gave after KG”. The Suns can bring him back but just remember that he’ll never leave you feeling like you didn’t want more.

Luka had
more points than Booker
more rebounds than Ayton
more assist than Paul
more steals than Bridges

Luka is generational

 

[Superbone]

Luka had
more points than Booker
more rebounds than Ayton
more assist than Paul
more steals than Bridges

Luka is generational

It hurts, man. We had a shot at a generational talent and we blew it. Even when his coach was our coach. I'll always wonder who made the decision to pass on him. Was it McDonough? Sarver? Even possibly Jones?

 

[GatorAZ]

It hurts, man. We had a shot at a generational talent and we blew it. Even when his coach was our coach. I'll always wonder who made the decision to pass on him. Was it McDonough? Sarver? Even possibly Jones?

I don’t put much stock into the Igor connection because he was our third choice after Budenholzr and Fizdale. They weren’t making decisions based on a coach they settled on. As long as McD was making the pick it was going to be the highest physical upside guy.

 

[Superbone]

I don’t put much stock into the Igor connection because he was our third choice after Budenholzr and Fizdale. They weren’t making decisions based on a coach they settled on. As long as McD was making the pick it was going to be the highest physical upside guy.

That makes sense. You're probably right that it was McD. I remember him being giddy when we got the #1 overall and I'm pretty sure he was thinking Ayton at the time.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Ayton is simply our best shooter and you can never have enough shooters. If anything, a lack of shooters (or shooters that can get their own shots) has been our weakest area all season long.

The problem with DA isn't his ability to make the shot, it's his occasional lack of focus which too often leads to having to re-set the offense when it doesn't lead outright to a turnover. It's a problem that needs addressing but it wouldn't be enough to make me go away from feeding him - apparently either Monty or Chris Paul felt otherwise.

And we were a great defending team until the playoffs, top 3 most of the season. Also, despite a huge decline late in the season, we finish tied for 8th in rebounds per game with the Raptors and the Spurs.

The problem isn't that we weren't good enough in any area. It's that we, for whatever reason, stopped being the team that led the league most of the season.

I don't believe it was arrogance or laziness or quitting on the coach but whatever it was, all you had to do was watch a Suns game from February and then compare it to a Suns game from April - they were two different teams.

Yup. All this.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I’ll maintain forever talent wasnt our problem we have a ton of talent but somewhere along the line our chemistry went left.

Which is so weird bc we seemed to be a perfect chemistry team.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I would LOVE Lauri Markkanen on this team. He’s a 6’11 legit stretch 4.

He would be a huge upgrade over Crowder in every single category. I’m done with Crowder

Agreed. When markkanen became available I was bummed we couldn’t figure out a way to land him.

 

[Yuma]

Via sign-and-trade, Ayton’s potential max deal comes with a big asterisk.

According to Marks, only the Detroit Pistons, Indiana Pacers, Orlando Magic and San Antonio Spurs project to have more than the $30.5 million in cap space needed to max out Ayton, while the Portland Trail Blazers could easily maneuver to do the same. Sign-and-trades to those teams would allow the Suns to take back approximately the equal amount of salary.

That short list of teams, of course, already has the power to sign Ayton straight up and would see if Phoenix wanted to match the restricted free agent.

But otherwise, any trade that puts the team receiving Ayton over the salary cap would only be allowed to send back salaries as if Ayton’s contract was 50% of the amount of his actual first year of his new deal.



In other words, for the Suns, dealing Ayton to most teams would put that team over the tax and therefore be as if Phoenix were trading a player only making $15.7 million next season (50% of his actual deal). By the standard trade rule, the Suns could take on 125% — of the 50% — of Ayton’s first year of his new deal, plus $100,000. The return would not be close to trading a player making $30.5 million.

Of course, including a third team could help get a deal through with more money (i.e. better players) coming to the Suns.

So if a team goes over the cap in a sign and trade with us, we only get half that value back in returning players. Only about 5 teams can give us full value. No wonder our GM is looking to return the same team. We can go over the salary cap by resigning players that we have their bird rights.

A question I have, is how many guys would want to leave after what happened with Dallas, which no one is talking about. Something happened behind closed doors.

 

[elindholm]

At this moment, my preference is to keep DA. We're simply not going to get a good return if we try to sign and trade him.

I've been an Ayton detractor, but seeing the Suns' collapse against Dallas puts me in the keep-Ayton camp as well.

The Suns' window with Chris Paul has closed. The question now is whether it's possible to retool for another run before Booker's career is over, or before Booker gets fed up and asks to leave. So the Suns need to make personnel decisions with a view to building a contender three or four years from now.

Given that, Ayton is the best option at center. He's limited and probably won't get significantly better, but he's still a credible presence on both ends of the floor, and it's rare that the Suns have been able to say that about their center.

The Suns will be restricted financially as long as Paul is on the books, but, looking beyond that, the contracts given to Booker and Bridges aren't that bad, and even a maximum extension for Ayton will look relatively affordable by the time Paul hangs it up or is bought out. So it's a long-term investment for a second-tier center -- an overpayment, yes, but not a tragic one, given the tightness of the market.

To me the more difficult question is what to do with Cameron Johnson. Like any sixth or seventh man on a good team, he has his strengths, and replacing his skill set won't be easy. But the reality is that he'll turn 27 in the middle of next season and has pretty well established that he'll never be a consistent impact player. In the four losses against Dallas, when the Suns needed him to step up, he averaged 8.5 points, 3.8 rebounds, and 1.8 assists, in a fairly generous 22 minutes per game. Does anyone really think that Johnson is going to have a crucial role on a championship team a few years from now, as he rounds into his 30s?

 

[TJ]

I would LOVE Lauri Markkanen on this team. He’s a 6’11 legit stretch 4.

He would be a huge upgrade over Crowder in every single category. I’m done with Crowder

Nice stretch 4 but doesn’t solve our rebounding issues. Plus, he’s always hurt.

 

[TJ]

James Jones pigeon holed himself. He should’ve given DA the Max last season to avoid this mess. Now, he has a disgruntled player who everyone knows wants out for a multitude of reasons (on and off the court) and now seemingly has a rift with the head coach. The Suns aren’t going to get equal compensation in a trade without attaching Mikal, Saric, and/or Cam Johnson to a deal.

Unless Jones has a rabbit’s foot in his ass and can swing a superstar in a deal, this is a lose-lose situation for the Suns.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Nice stretch 4 but doesn’t solve our rebounding issues. Plus, he’s always hurt.

I'm a fan but yeah, it's always something with him.

 

[nashman]

Ayton is simply our best shooter and you can never have enough shooters. If anything, a lack of shooters (or shooters that can get their own shots) has been our weakest area all season long.

The problem with DA isn't his ability to make the shot, it's his occasional lack of focus which too often leads to having to re-set the offense when it doesn't lead outright to a turnover. It's a problem that needs addressing but it wouldn't be enough to make me go away from feeding him - apparently either Monty or Chris Paul felt otherwise.

And we were a great defending team until the playoffs, top 3 most of the season. Also, despite a huge decline late in the season, we finish tied for 8th in rebounds per game with the Raptors and the Spurs.

The problem isn't that we weren't good enough in any area. It's that we, for whatever reason, stopped being the team that led the league most of the season.

I don't believe it was arrogance or laziness or quitting on the coach but whatever it was, all you had to do was watch a Suns game from February and then compare it to a Suns game from April - they were two different teams.

Ayton is not our best shooter wtf? His % may be highest but that’s because he is spoon fed easy baskets and he’s 7 ft tall let’s be serious. He is what he is at this point, everyone keeps saying he can get better but he’s been doing the same **** since college. Floats around lost in space, not aggressively going to basket, or even try to get position half the time. You pay a guy like that he thinks he’s the best center already, he’s not gonna work harder to become better, in his mind he’s already arrived. If you can get good pieces for him do it!

 

[AzStevenCal]

Ayton is not our best shooter wtf? His % may be highest but that’s because he is spoon fed easy baskets and he’s 7 ft tall let’s be serious. He is what he is at this point, everyone keeps saying he can get better but he’s been doing the same **** since college. Floats around lost in space, not aggressively going to basket, or even try to get position half the time. You pay a guy like that he thinks he’s the best center already, he’s not gonna work harder to become better, in his mind he’s already arrived. If you can get good pieces for him do it!

Go back and watch those games without CP3 spoon feeding him, he was incredible on his own. His efficiency stats are good for a reason. The problem has to do with the possessions he ruins that don't show up in his shooting stats.

It would take a serious bidding war for us to get "good pieces" for him and I can't see that happening. Other teams are excited about the possibility of getting him on a discounted "max" deal without having to waste assets to make it happen. I suspect that market will dry up quickly though if it turns out that it will take near equal value to get him.

 

[Raindog]

James Jones pigeon holed himself. He should’ve given DA the Max last season to avoid this mess. Now, he has a disgruntled player who everyone knows wants out for a multitude of reasons (on and off the court) and now seemingly has a rift with the head coach. The Suns aren’t going to get equal compensation in a trade without attaching Mikal, Saric, and/or Cam Johnson to a deal.

Unless Jones has a rabbit’s foot in his ass and can swing a superstar in a deal, this is a lose-lose situation for the Suns.

I feel like that probably wasn't on Jones, but more likely the guy above him... although he's the one who has to publicly take the heat for it.

 

[Muggz]

Here we are.
The DA saga will come full circle.
We knew this was gonna happen are any of you really surprised?
We should have traded that draft pick and picked up a few more shooting guards for our collection.
And to anyone bitching about DA, name anyone that we could get that's better or has more upside.
We tried to trade him, didn't want to pay him, used him at the expense of his game and as a scapegoat for poor team production.
Treat Me like that then ask me if I want to go back into a game 30 down? Id be more that happy to tell you to go f yourself.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I feel like that probably wasn't on Jones, but more likely the guy above him... although he's the one who has to publicly take the heat for it.

I know people post this stuff a lot, but I actually know a little bit about what was going on at the end of those negotiations and it was Jones. but everyone (coach/GM/owner) was pretty much in agreement.

Don’t ask how I know. Just ask if I’ve ever claimed to have inside info before. I haven’t.

Also, think about what went down and what we don’t even know went down with Ayton and Monty during Game 7 and Monty’s reaction after the game… and for days after. He was pissed… and as of mid-week still hadn’t talked to Ayton according to what he told the press.

That wasn’t a blowup just because of an epic bad Game 7. Monty didn’t have any reported beefs with anyone else. Telltale sign that something was brewing with them for a while and came to a head as they fell apart.

 

[Finito]

I know people post this stuff a lot, but I actually know a little bit about what was going on at the end of those negotiations and it was Jones. but everyone (coach/GM/owner) was pretty much in agreement.

Don’t ask how I know. Just ask if I’ve ever claimed to have inside info before. I haven’t.

Also, think about what went down and what we don’t even know went down with Ayton and Monty during Game 7 and Monty’s reaction after the game… and for days after. He was pissed… and as of mid-week still hadn’t talked to Ayton according to what he told the press.

That wasn’t a blowup just because of an epic bad Game 7. Monty didn’t have any reported beefs with anyone else. Telltale sign that something was brewing with them for a while and came to a head as they fell apart.

Well it’s been reported Paul and Monty have beef and that’s from credible media sources

Monty and Ayton have a problem, Paul and Monty have a problem. Now Ayton and Paul have very different personalities so honestly the guy I’m looking at is Monty

 

[95pro]

Well it’s been reported Paul and Monty have beef and that’s from credible media sources

Monty and Ayton have a problem, Paul and Monty have a problem. Now Ayton and Paul have very different personalities so honestly the guy I’m looking at is Monty

Ayton is the outlier on the personalities. Younger kid who’s not a professional as long as the other two.

 

[Finito]

Ayton is the outlier on the personalities. Younger kid who’s not a professional as long as the other two.

That’s what makes it worse Paul and Monty should know better and be better.

Honestly I think Monty told Paul to sit and Paul told him to F off. Paul has a strong personality that I can see kind of bullying passive Monty

 

[Bufalay]

Ayton is the outlier on the personalities. Younger kid who’s not a professional as long as the other two.

Paul is the outlier. Ayton doesn't have a 15 year track record of his teammates hating him.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I've been an Ayton detractor, but seeing the Suns' collapse against Dallas puts me in the keep-Ayton camp as well.

The Suns' window with Chris Paul has closed. The question now is whether it's possible to retool for another run before Booker's career is over, or before Booker gets fed up and asks to leave. So the Suns need to make personnel decisions with a view to building a contender three or four years from now.

Given that, Ayton is the best option at center. He's limited and probably won't get significantly better, but he's still a credible presence on both ends of the floor, and it's rare that the Suns have been able to say that about their center.

The Suns will be restricted financially as long as Paul is on the books, but, looking beyond that, the contracts given to Booker and Bridges aren't that bad, and even a maximum extension for Ayton will look relatively affordable by the time Paul hangs it up or is bought out. So it's a long-term investment for a second-tier center -- an overpayment, yes, but not a tragic one, given the tightness of the market.

To me the more difficult question is what to do with Cameron Johnson. Like any sixth or seventh man on a good team, he has his strengths, and replacing his skill set won't be easy. But the reality is that he'll turn 27 in the middle of next season and has pretty well established that he'll never be a consistent impact player. In the four losses against Dallas, when the Suns needed him to step up, he averaged 8.5 points, 3.8 rebounds, and 1.8 assists, in a fairly generous 22 minutes per game. Does anyone really think that Johnson is going to have a crucial role on a championship team a few years from now, as he rounds into his 30s?

This is the right game plan. I do think Johnson has the chance given where he rounded into form right before his injury. He had a 6 stretch where he averaged 22 points per game on crazy 3 point shooting. I think that was a glimpse into what he might be capable of. I don’t think he’s our PF of the future though, and if that’s what jones/monty think I think they’re crazy. Rather, I could see us eventually packaging bridges with another player and picks to get our third star and cam sliding in at starting SF.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I've been an Ayton detractor, but seeing the Suns' collapse against Dallas puts me in the keep-Ayton camp as well.

The Suns' window with Chris Paul has closed. The question now is whether it's possible to retool for another run before Booker's career is over, or before Booker gets fed up and asks to leave. So the Suns need to make personnel decisions with a view to building a contender three or four years from now.

Given that, Ayton is the best option at center. He's limited and probably won't get significantly better, but he's still a credible presence on both ends of the floor, and it's rare that the Suns have been able to say that about their center.

The Suns will be restricted financially as long as Paul is on the books, but, looking beyond that, the contracts given to Booker and Bridges aren't that bad, and even a maximum extension for Ayton will look relatively affordable by the time Paul hangs it up or is bought out. So it's a long-term investment for a second-tier center -- an overpayment, yes, but not a tragic one, given the tightness of the market.

To me the more difficult question is what to do with Cameron Johnson. Like any sixth or seventh man on a good team, he has his strengths, and replacing his skill set won't be easy. But the reality is that he'll turn 27 in the middle of next season and has pretty well established that he'll never be a consistent impact player. In the four losses against Dallas, when the Suns needed him to step up, he averaged 8.5 points, 3.8 rebounds, and 1.8 assists, in a fairly generous 22 minutes per game. Does anyone really think that Johnson is going to have a crucial role on a championship team a few years from now, as he rounds into his 30s?

All of this. At this point, Ayton isn't perfect, but signing him is the best move. CP is an albatross, and Booker is a star but likely will never be a top 5 player. (Still ok!)

I'm glad you brought up Cam J - pre injury, he looked like a 20m man. Post injury and into the playoffs, I'd pay him 15M per, but only because I believe in the character and shooting.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Here we are.
The DA saga will come full circle.
We knew this was gonna happen are any of you really surprised?
We should have traded that draft pick and picked up a few more shooting guards for our collection.
And to anyone bitching about DA, name anyone that we could get that's better or has more upside.
We tried to trade him, didn't want to pay him, used him at the expense of his game and as a scapegoat for poor team production.
Treat Me like that then ask me if I want to go back into a game 30 down? Id be more that happy to tell you to go f yourself.

You go into the game for your teammates, not your owner.

 

[Finito]

This is the right game plan. I do think Johnson has the chance given where he rounded into form right before his injury. He had a 6 stretch where he averaged 22 points per game on crazy 3 point shooting. I think that was a glimpse into what he might be capable of. I don’t think he’s our PF of the future though, and if that’s what jones/monty think I think they’re crazy. Rather, I could see us eventually packaging bridges with another player and picks to get our third star and cam sliding in at starting SF.

Oh this is what I do not want to see. Cam is not a PF at all but I think that might be the route they go.