the backlash

[Chris_Sanders]

If you'll notice, this was never a threat I personally made. I appreciate V9's character support, but I am hardly afraid to debate. And I did not know that you were not a moderator for this particular forum, and I apologize. I also fully mean everything else that I posted on this thread.

It seems to me that this situation has really polarized posters, just like most major decisions do. I just happen to disagree with those that have attributed all blame to JJ and actually think we are better off without him. Just a week ago I read a lot of posters on couple of forums that stated unequivocally that along with Amare, JJ was the future of this franchise, and would be a building block that we would retool around. And now, he's an overrated, fragile loser. That smacks to me of just trying to tear the guy leaving down to make us feel better about losing him. I personally think that JJ will play great for Atlanta and we will regret losing him. I wish him the very best...but I will remain a Suns fan...and I won't be running from this forum or anyone who wants a debate.

I will break down my comments on this situation.

#1 It is a bad situation that everyone deserves blame for. I don't blame JJ anymore than I blame Sarver. However, these recent reports about JJ really do stick him in a poor light.

#2. I have maintained that JJ will never be anything more than a support player. He has loads of talent, but his value to the team is no more than say Shawn Marion's. I favored matching, knowing full well that either JJ or Marion would be gone next year.

#3. The moment I heard JJ wanted 10 million a year I said trade him. This was last year before the market on SGs was set by crazy GMs who want to overpay for the easiest position to acquire. JJ is not worth what Atlanta has given him, but I still would have matched and explored trading him or Marion next year.

#4. While JJ does many things, his scoring is replacable in this offense. This offense gets loads of open shots for any remotely competent guard.

#5. We have one superstar on this team. Amare Stoudemire.

#6. Anyone who stops being a fan over this is being reactionary. These are probably the same fans who rediscovered the Suns last year. Unfortunately Phoenix is a hotbed of bandwagonism.

#7. Sarver is not Donald Sterling. Sarver won't lose money on the Suns. Sterling makes tons of money by keeping his roster salary so minimal.

That's it. I don't think my comments are especially inflammatory or out of line. As this situation has clarified itself, I feel more than vindicated.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

But I will say that these have been awfully provincial and immature responses that I would not expect most of the posters here (a good board IMHO BTW) to make.

How so?

 

[JS22]

It seems to me that you are exceptionally quick to mock those that don't share your opinion, and I hardly call that moderation, Mr. Sanders.

edit: nevermind.

 

[simply_amare]

It's not totally Sarver's fault. JJ is mostly at fault. Joe's just too stupid to remember that basketball is a business. If he didn't get that contract last year, he shouldn't be taking it to heart. Boohoo! He carried his hurt feelings the whole season. I honestly believe he was planning for this moment to screw the Suns.

 

[Joe Mama]

I agree with almost everything Fanboy said in his article. It sounds like they are both at fault. I also believe that a lot of what we are hearing today is Phoenix Suns propaganda. I think the Phoenix Suns in this case and JJ's agent earlier have played the media well.

Joe Mama

 

[TopGamer]

NO offense, but so what? All teams have turnover. Even the Spurs... they really only kept 1-3 of the same players over the years but still win.. so if fans are that fickle.. then the hell with 'em

The Spurs win championships and have been contenders for the past few years and will be contenders for the next few years. So I doubt the fans will worry if players are rotated.

The situation with the Suns is different. Last years team was the most fun to watch in a long time and the most successful. Fans became excited again and a lot of hope was built for the future of this team. After making it to the WCF and having the best season record you can only imagine how many of us was looking forward to the future.

The Q trade by itself wasn't that big an issue because we brought in KT to improve areas we were lacking. But the loss of two starters makes the decisions the Suns made tougher to swallow. We lost JJ because of Sarver's penny pinching and the Suns are trying to use him wanting to leave as a smokscreen. I don't think he was willing to match ANY offer as they continually suggested.

From a business standpoint I understand Sarver's decisions. I think most of the owners are more concerned with making money than losing it. One team get's a championship a year, and for over a decade the same few teams have been winning it. Owners are trying to protect their investment. Making money is more important than championships in the long term. Sarver didn't buy the team just for courtside seats.

Besides, a trade of one of the starters was inevitable with so much being locked up into four players. I'm not angry with Sarver not wanting to pay JJ, just angry that we were being deceived all year by them leading us to believe he will be kept at all costs.

 

[TopGamer]

I agree with almost everything Fanboy said in his article. It sounds like they are both at fault. I also believe that a lot of what we are hearing today is Phoenix Suns propaganda. I think the Phoenix Suns in this case and JJ's agent earlier have played the media well.

Joe Mama

I agree. I also think Joe has looked like a complete hypocrite in this situation. He keeps claiming that this is a business decision. But is Sarver not a businessman? If Joe is looking out for his best interests financially why is Sarver not entitled to do the same? JJ is doing a lot finger pointing. But we are dealing with two individuals with two different interests and goals. It's difficult to reach an amicable decision when that is the case. Sarver is trying to be conservative with his spending therefore he did not give JJ the contract last year. JJ felt slighted by the way the Suns have been handling him so he wants to leave. I understand that he feels that way. But he can't blame anyone for looking out for their best interests as he is trying to do for himself.

 

[clif]

The Spurs win championships and have been contenders for the past few years and will be contenders for the next few years. So I doubt the fans will worry if players are rotated.

The situation with the Suns is different. Last years team was the most fun to watch in a long time and the most successful. Fans became excited again and a lot of hope was built for the future of this team. After making it to the WCF and having the best season record you can only imagine how many of us was looking forward to the future.

The Q trade by itself wasn't that big an issue because we brought in KT to improve areas we were lacking. But the loss of two starters makes the decisions the Suns made tougher to swallow. We lost JJ because of Sarver's penny pinching and the Suns are trying to use him wanting to leave as a smokscreen. I don't think he was willing to match ANY offer as they continually suggested.

From a business standpoint I understand Sarver's decisions. I think most of the owners are more concerned with making money than losing it. One team get's a championship a year, and for over a decade the same few teams have been winning it. Owners are trying to protect their investment. Making money is more important than championships in the long term. Sarver didn't buy the team just for courtside seats.

Besides, a trade of one of the starters was inevitable with so much being locked up into four players. I'm not angry with Sarver not wanting to pay JJ, just angry that we were being deceived all year by them leading us to believe he will be kept at all costs.

So again... you don't think its silly to cancel season tickets before free agency officially starts? I don't mind people being upset or feeling lied to, but to say it was all because Sarver was penny pinching is just not true. JJ didn't want to be here... from most accounts no matter what. I also don't think that 6 years $60 million or $75 million is cheap. If the $75 mil amount is correct, then it shows you all you need to know about JJ. He would rather take less money overall to get more up front to be on a losing team so he can be the man.

 

[Joe Mama]

So again... you don't think its silly to cancel season tickets before free agency officially starts? I don't mind people being upset or feeling lied to, but to say it was all because Sarver was penny pinching is just not true. JJ didn't want to be here... from most accounts no matter what. I also don't think that 6 years $60 million or $75 million is cheap. If the $75 mil amount is correct, then it shows you all you need to know about JJ. He would rather take less money overall to get more up front to be on a losing team so he can be the man.

I can't believe how many people on this site think that 6 years/$60 million and even 6 years/$75 million is anywhere near as good as 5 years/$70 million, with a $20-25 million upfront payment.

Joe Mama

 

[clif]

I can't believe how many people on this site think that 6 years/$60 million and even 6 years/$75 million is anywhere near as good as 5 years/$70 million, with a $20-25 million upfront payment.

Joe Mama

I can't believe why it isn't to be the "4th option".. The guy was going to get the same amout of money. Are you trying to tell me that he should have wanted out because of an extra year?

 

[Joe Mama]

I can't believe why it isn't to be the "4th option".. The guy was going to get the same amout of money. Are you trying to tell me that he should have wanted out because of an extra year?

if you are referring to the six years/$75 million offer that is not as good as 5 years/$70 million. Essentially he's signing on for an asked her year at this season's mid-level exception. Also, that $20-25 million upfront payment (he should be getting a fat check in a couple months) is huge. That is much, much better than $75 million spread over six years.

I hope you take someone with you if you ever tried to finance a car.

I also don't know how you can blame JJ for not wanting to play a smaller role on this team. I wish he had given Sarver a chance to explain that his role would actually have been much bigger in the next couple years, but by that point he was justifiably upset with the way things had been handled by Phoenix.

Look, I think JJ is really going to regret his decision. This reminds me a lot of Marbury leaving Kevin Garnett. I can understand why he would be upset with management/owners, and I can understand why he would want to play a bigger role on another team. I was the one that kept pointing out this was a possibility 5-6 months ago, and I took a lot of flak for it.

Lastly, you seem to just eat up all of this stuff that blames JJ for the debacle. This is clearly Phoenix Suns propaganda trying to place the blame on JJ instead of Sarver. This falls on both of them.

Joe Mama

 

[KloD]

Lastly, you seem to just eat up all of this stuff that blames JJ for the debacle. This is clearly Phoenix Suns propaganda trying to place the blame on JJ instead of Sarver. This falls on both of them.

Joe Mama

Its not clear to me. How is JJ running his mouth to the media propaganda from the Suns? JJ was offered a fair contract both times IMO, because Atlanta chose to overpay to get him does not mean Sarver/the Suns did anything wrong.

 

[Dustbuster]

This is just any other breakup where people feel the need to tear down the person that they broke up with (or broke up with them) to make them feel better about themselves. The Suns know they are in deep water in the PR department, and they are going to spin this like crazy.

What's done is done. The bigger problem to me is whether or not we will actually use the assets that we now have to try to improve the team more. By my calculations, we should actually be under the cap by 2-3 million now, even after Bell and the minor contracts that we have added. We should still have the MLE to use now, not to mention the two trade exceptions that we have accumulated. Will we add to this team, or will we be content to just wing it with what we have, maybe adding another undrafted FA or two? If we get that tight, I think there will be a continuing backlash against the Sarver era.

 

[KloD]

This is just any other breakup where people feel the need to tear down the person that they broke up with (or broke up with them) to make them feel better about themselves. The Suns know they are in deep water in the PR department, and they are going to spin this like crazy.

Where????
Please show me where the Suns are spinning this??

 

[Joe Mama]

Its not clear to me. How is JJ running his mouth to the media propaganda from the Suns? JJ was offered a fair contract both times IMO, because Atlanta chose to overpay to get him does not mean Sarver/the Suns did anything wrong.

the article from ESPN is the only place we have quotes directly from JJ. It's the only time we have a reporter who actually spoke to JJ. All of the rest of this is just "information" that Gambo learned from his "sources". It's quite obvious those sources that provided the information from yesterday's show are close with the team.

Those were not fair contract offers, and it should have been obvious that JJ was not going to take either of them. What we all need to do is forget for a second that we are talking about such large numbers. I'm usually the first person to complain about these outrageous salaries, but even I can see that a 6-year/$60 million offer two days after Michael Redd gets a maximum offer from Cleveland and 6 years/$90 million to re-sign with Milwaukee is crap. Oh yeah, Ray Allen had also just received five years/$80 million.

Then when Atlanta offered the 5 years/$70 million and said they would front load the contract the Phoenix Suns come back with 6 years/$75 million... no front loading. They told him to make a choice.

It was just poorly negotiated, and they should have known that they were only further upsetting JJ and his agent. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if they did know this and played hardball to get out of paying JJ a big contract.

Joe Mama

 

[KloD]

the article from ESPN is the only place we have quotes directly from JJ. It's the only time we have a reporter who actually spoke to JJ. All of the rest of this is just "information" that Gambo learned from his "sources". It's quite obvious those sources that provided the information from yesterday's show are close with the team.

Those were not fair contract offers, and it should have been obvious that JJ was not going to take either of them. What we all need to do is forget for a second that we are talking about such large numbers. I'm usually the first person to complain about these outrageous salaries, but even I can see that a 6-year/$60 million offer two days after Michael Redd gets a maximum offer from Cleveland and 6 years/$90 million to re-sign with Milwaukee is crap. Oh yeah, Ray Allen had also just received five years/$80 million.

Then when Atlanta offered the 5 years/$70 million and said they would front load the contract the Phoenix Suns come back with 6 years/$75 million... no front loading. They told him to make a choice.

It was just poorly negotiated, and they should have known that they were only further upsetting JJ and his agent. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if they did know this and played hardball to get out of paying JJ a big contract.

Joe Mama

I guess I don't see JJ in the same light as Ray Allen or Redd.

 

[tobiazz]

I can't believe how many people on this site think that 6 years/$60 million and even 6 years/$75 million is anywhere near as good as 5 years/$70 million, with a $20-25 million upfront payment.

Joe Mama

If he doesn't touch $15 million in the first year, that money will earn $300,000 the first year at just 2% interest. Over the course of 5 years he will have accumulated extra millions from that up front payment.

Wow, all of a sudden I feel ill...

 

[clif]

if you are referring to the six years/$75 million offer that is not as good as 5 years/$70 million. Essentially he's signing on for an asked her year at this season's mid-level exception. Also, that $20-25 million upfront payment (he should be getting a fat check in a couple months) is huge. That is much, much better than $75 million spread over six years.

I hope you take someone with you if you ever tried to finance a car.

That's great right now, but in the long run it would have made no difference to him financially..unless you want to speculate as to what he actually was going to do with the money. He would have gotten every penny no matter what. So if he felt "disrespected" because he couldn't have it all now then he is a crybaby in my book.

I also don't know how you can blame JJ for not wanting to play a smaller role on this team. I wish he had given Sarver a chance to explain that his role would actually have been much bigger in the next couple years, but by that point he was justifiably upset with the way things had been handled by Phoenix.

No one is blaming Joe for wanting a bigger role. Hel..l we ALL wanted him to have a bigger role. I love his game, but his actions over the last few days shows that he was MORE concerned about his role rather than actual winning.

Sarver deserves blame, but I just can't see how someone can't "feel the love" after being offered $50 million dollars to play basketball. My grip with JJ goes deeper. I don't know him personally..I wish him good health and success outside of basketball, but I think he will fall on his face.

Look, I think JJ is really going to regret his decision. This reminds me a lot of Marbury leaving Kevin Garnett. I can understand why he would be upset with management/owners, and I can understand why he would want to play a bigger role on another team. I was the one that kept pointing out this was a possibility 5-6 months ago, and I took a lot of flak for it.

Again I love the fact that he wants to have a bigger role. That is great, but he could have had a bigger role right here in Phoenix..so he is willing to play on a sucky team just to have that bigger role. A bigger piece of nothing.

Lastly, you seem to just eat up all of this stuff that blames JJ for the debacle. This is clearly Phoenix Suns propaganda trying to place the blame on JJ instead of Sarver. This falls on both of them.

Joe Mama

I blame JJ at this time based on his actions and statements he has made.. if he would have kept his mouth shut...or even just said that he wanted to take on a bigger role instead of basically rehashing a comment Amare made 5 months ago.. it would have been easier.

If you read Jerry Browns article.. Sarver admits fault.

 

[Dustbuster]

I guess I don't see JJ in the same light as Ray Allen or Redd.

You may not, but many media outlets reported that if JJ had been unrestricted, he would have been at the top of their (GMs) lists, even above Ray Allen and Redd. I have also read repeatedly that JJ is considered a much more versatile player than either of them. Whether or not we think JJ is being overpaid (and he probably is), he is only receiving market value for this year. The only contract smaller than his is for Larry Hughes, and it is a difference of what appears to be only 5 million - and he wasn't restricted.

I personally think that Ray Allen is more of an impact player, but I think that Redd is less.

 

[Joe Mama]

That's great right now, but in the long run it would have made no difference to him financially..unless you want to speculate as to what he actually was going to do with the money. He would have gotten every penny no matter what. So if he felt "disrespected" because he couldn't have it all now then he is a crybaby in my book.

Of course it's better to get the money up front. They can buy all the neat things they want and invest the rest, and they are earning interest on that money. He's going to get twice as much money this season as he would have if he had signed a normal 5 years/$70 million deal with the Phoenix Suns. Atlanta isn't even going to spread it out throughout the season. They will pay him everything in one lump sum up front.

You ever wonder why everybody who wins the Powerball takes the lump-sum payment even though they are only actually paid about half their winnings? They could opt for the full amount to be paid evenly over 20 years. It's because they will actually make more by having just half of the overall winnings upfront.

No one is blaming Joe for wanting a bigger role. Hel..l we ALL wanted him to have a bigger role. I love his game, but his actions over the last few days shows that he was MORE concerned about his role rather than actual winning.

First of all, I'm sure Joe thinks that he can help Atlanta start winning games. He's not delusional. I don't think he expects them to be as good as the Phoenix Suns anytime soon, but at least with Atlanta he will feel more involved. I agree that Sarver and the Colangelos probably would have told him that they wanted him to be a bigger part of the team. However by that point he was already upset with them for the lowball offers.

Sarver deserves blame, but I just can't see how someone can't "feel the love" after being offered $50 million dollars to play basketball. My grip with JJ goes deeper. I don't know him personally..I wish him good health and success outside of basketball, but I think he will fall on his face.

It's all relative. As far as the "feeling the love" goes it's about respect from the team. You have to think about this without getting hung up on the ridiculous sums of money involved. Believe me when I say that this is not easy for me either. I have been one of the strongest voices on this board saying that the NBA and sports in general is out of control with what they pay their athletes.

I blame JJ at this time based on his actions and statements he has made.. if he would have kept his mouth shut...or even just said that he wanted to take on a bigger role instead of basically rehashing a comment Amare made 5 months ago.. it would have been easier.

Do you really think it was JJ who brought up that comment? This goes directly to my point about you believing everything that came out yesterday about JJ. You better believe that stuff came from the Phoenix Suns. They are trying to justify not re-signing him, and they are trying to turn the public against him a little. This is obvious.

If you read Jerry Browns article.. Sarver admits fault.[/QUOTE]

Sarver admits he made a mistake last year. Besides, I'm not arguing with Sarver. I'm arguing with you because I feel you are unfairly placing the large majority of the blame on JJ. I say that both sides have made mistakes and are making another one. I don't think it's the end of the world for the Phoenix Suns, but I liked their chances next year in the year after better with JJ in the fold.

I personally think that Ray Allen is more of an impact player, but I think that Redd is less.

ditto. The thing about Ray Allen is that he's already 30 years old. He had injury problems last year (2003-04). JJ is a better defender also. I still think he's worth more per season though. Michael Redd is not. JJ is certainly a better prospect than Larry Hughes.

Joe Mama

 

[clif]

It's all relative. As far as the "feeling the love" goes it's about respect from the team. You have to think about this without getting hung up on the ridiculous sums of money involved. Believe me when I say that this is not easy for me either. I have been one of the strongest voices on this board saying that the NBA and sports in general is out of control with what they pay their athletes.




Do you really think it was JJ who brought up that comment? This goes directly to my point about you believing everything that came out yesterday about JJ. You better believe that stuff came from the Phoenix Suns. They are trying to justify not re-signing him, and they are trying to turn the public against him a little. This is obvious.


Sarver admits he made a mistake last year. Besides, I'm not arguing with Sarver. I'm arguing with you because I feel you are unfairly placing the large majority of the blame on JJ. I say that both sides have made mistakes and are making another one. I don't think it's the end of the world for the Phoenix Suns, but I liked their chances next year in the year after better with JJ in the fold.



ditto. The thing about Ray Allen is that he's already 30 years old. He had injury problems last year (2003-04). JJ is a better defender also. I still think he's worth more per season though. Michael Redd is not. JJ is certainly a better prospect than Larry Hughes.

Joe Mama

As I said on the other thread... if we leave out the he said .. she said.. Is there any debate that JJ told Sarver that he did not want to be here? Based on that alone.. I could not find fault in Sarver letting him going.. when he is already on the hook for a grip to people that actually want to be here.

 

[boisesuns]

I smell a scandal brewing here....Boobiegate anyone?

At least the hawks finally got their "Johnson"

 

[Joe Mama]

As I said on the other thread... if we leave out the he said .. she said.. Is there any debate that JJ told Sarver that he did not want to be here? Based on that alone.. I could not find fault in Sarver letting him going.. when he is already on the hook for a grip to people that actually want to be here.

yeah, in the same article it was reported that he told Sarver that he preferred that the Phoenix Suns not match the offer. He would rather play in Atlanta, but he said if the Phoenix Suns did match he would come back, play twice as hard, and get along great with his teammates. This does not sound like someone who was really trying hard to force his way out of the franchise. To be honest it sounds a lot more like someone trying to make sure he got the offer from Atlanta.

Joe

 

[clif]

yeah, in the same article it was reported that he told Sarver that he preferred that the Phoenix Suns not match the offer. He would rather play in Atlanta, but he said if the Phoenix Suns did match he would come back, play twice as hard, and get along great with his teammates. This does not sound like someone who was really trying hard to force his way out of the franchise. To be honest it sounds a lot more like someone trying to make sure he got the offer from Atlanta.

Joe

If someone told you they didn't want to work for you... would you want to pay them $70,000... let alone $70,000,000 ?

Would you have taken the chance and been on the hook for that amount?

 

[KloD]

You may not, but many media outlets reported that if JJ had been unrestricted, he would have been at the top of their (GMs) lists, even above Ray Allen and Redd. I have also read repeatedly that JJ is considered a much more versatile player than either of them. Whether or not we think JJ is being overpaid (and he probably is), he is only receiving market value for this year. The only contract smaller than his is for Larry Hughes, and it is a difference of what appears to be only 5 million - and he wasn't restricted.

I personally think that Ray Allen is more of an impact player, but I think that Redd is less.

How many times has a team looked back with regret over signing a guy (too much money over too many years), heck look at Googs. I'm not saying JJ is Googs, I just feel one good year on a great team is not enough for me to wish the Suns to open up thier wallets. I'm willing to bet many of those on this board who are calling for managements heads over not signing JJ last summer would not have been happy at the time if they had given him the 50mil. He had not earned it!!!

It is true that sometimes you pay max to a guy who will have a big impact on your team because that is what bad teams will pay. JJ in my opinion is not that type of guy. He is becoming a very good SG and in the Suns system may have become great, in Atlanta I think he will flop. The Suns are not Milwaukie or Atlanta, they are not desperate nor need to convince guys to come to their team by overpaying them.

No matter what went down, I don't think JJ was offered too little by the Suns and I am glad management will not bow down and overpay him at the cost of the team. JJ is not the franchise and signing him to a max deal would have strapped this team for sometime or force them to do this next year. Calling Sarver cheap is stupid IMO, he has a responsibility not only to the fans and the team, but to his co-owners to make sound finacial decisions.

Had JJ kept his mouth shut, he would not have this backlash. It would all be on the Suns for making comments and backing out. He chose to ask them not to match over hurt feelings. This is a business and he doesn't seem to have the maturity to understand that. This is not all about him, it is about the team and what is best. Either way, his "market value" would not have allowed for this team to stay intact. It just came to a head this year instead of next.