The Biedrins Factor

[hcsilla]

How do you figure that? If we also give Charlotte 3m, that saves them half his contract.

It still would count against their cap.

Very close to nothing. Who else are they going to get?

Othella Harrington, Chris Andersen, Adonal Foyle, Etan Thomas, Mark Blount or a rookie C.
Or simply take a vet min. FA C and use their cap room for acquiring of draft picks.

A free agent center this season will be much more expensive than Jahidi White, hate to tell you.

Hate to tell you, but you are wrong here.

 

[Chaplin]

It still would count against their cap.


Othella Harrington, Chris Andersen, Adonal Foyle, Etan Thomas, Mark Blount or a rookie C.
Or simply take a vet min. FA C and use their cap room for acquiring of draft picks.


Hate to tell you, but you are wrong here.

Harrington, Andersen and maybe Thomas might be cheaper, but White still is better than all three of them at the 5.

 

[George O'Brien]

Does the entire contract count against the cap, or just amount the Bobcats have to pay? I can't remember it being clarified either way.

My guess is that it is net cash cost, not the entire contract that counts for cap purposes. Otherwise it will be impossible for the Bobcats to field a team other than rookie free agents. $30 million doesn't go very far.

White at $5.8 million for one year is not nearly as expensive as most of the players teams will make available. My guess is that he will be the 8th or 9th cheapest option over the course of his contract. If they can't afford White, who can they afford?

 

[elindholm]

My guess is that it is net cash cost, not the entire contract that counts for cap purposes.

It's probably the contract amount, and the reason I guess that is because cash buyouts (apparently) don't count against the cap of the team paying them. So for consistency, they shouldn't count on the other side either. But that's just an educated guess.

Otherwise it will be impossible for the Bobcats to field a team other than rookie free agents. $30 million doesn't go very far.

Remember that they can go over their own cap through the expansion draft. As near as I can figure, they have no limitation at all in terms of how much salary they can draft. That's part of the reason for the rumors that if a player like Allan Houston is left unprotected, the Bobcats may snap him up with the idea of trading him for several lower-level players.

It does appear, however, that the Bobcats' hands in free agency will be pretty well tied. In other words, they'd better get something out of the expansion draft and regular draft, or else they will stink to high heaven.

 

[coloradosun]

I can certainly imagine a trade, but I don't see anyone trading a center who can play who is not grossly overpaid or far too old.

One weird idea I had would be to trade the Suns #7 and Eisley to the Trailblazers for their #13 and Dale Davis. Davis is on the last year of his contract at $9 million and is strong defender/rebounder type player. The Trailblazers need a backup point guard and Davis is the odd man out since the Blazers picked up Ratliff and SAR. This only works if there is someone at #7 the Blazers really like such as Devin Harris.

That's not a wierd idea, I have had a similar thought with the #7 and Portland but mine has #7 and Jahidi to Portland for Theo Ratliff and #23. If all you are going to get out of a center is a project I'd rather drop down to #23 and even have less of a salary cap hit. Remember we possibly have two first round draft choices next year to pick a center as well. Sabonis still has strong ties in Portland and Martynas has strong connections to Sabonis. They can use White and Davis as stop gap and I think that we would have more interest in Ratliff than Davis. They can keep Marty visious in Europe or tutor with Arydis over here.

 

[Chaplin]

Does the entire contract count against the cap, or just amount the Bobcats have to pay? I can't remember it being clarified either way.

My guess is that it is net cash cost, not the entire contract that counts for cap purposes. Otherwise it will be impossible for the Bobcats to field a team other than rookie free agents. $30 million doesn't go very far.

White at $5.8 million for one year is not nearly as expensive as most of the players teams will make available. My guess is that he will be the 8th or 9th cheapest option over the course of his contract. If they can't afford White, who can they afford?

Why would they want Howard Eisley if they were planning to draft a point guard with the #7?

 

[binkar]

As far as Biedrins I would not be very excited if we picked him up. I was reading what Charlotte was saying about him after his workout with them and the coach was saying how he doesnt think he merits a lottery selection and he might be a good pick late in the first round.

Does not sound like he was very impressed.

The think with me though is I dont want another guy like him or Andriuskevicius. We already have Zarko and Lampe how many of these guys can one team have?

I am more interested in a guy like Iggy that is just and amazing athlete is more of a sure thing and can shoot, jump, rebound, pass, and most importantly defend. He has such a complete game and is so athletic its hard not to love him.

 

[Chaplin]

I am more interested in a guy like Iggy that is just and amazing athlete is more of a sure thing and can shoot, jump, rebound, pass, and most importantly defend. He has such a complete game and is so athletic its hard not to love him.

Igoudala cannot shoot.

 

[Joe Mama]

I'm not sure why you think the Bobcats are like the villain with the handlebar moustache rubbing their hands together. Jahidi White will be one of the top options for the Bobcats in the expansion draft player-wise. 2.9 million for one of the better players available isn't that bad. I'm not sure why you think they're definitely going to try to take advantage of us. I don't expect them to want to make the playoffs right away, but I expect them to build their fan base by at least wanting to win some games and be competitive. Jahidi White does that. I think there's a very good chance that Charlotte takes Jahidi without the pick.

Now Howard Eisley, that's a different story.

I think you are overrating Jahidi White. The Phoenix Suns desperately needed and still need help in the middle, yet we are talking about unloading White's contract. We have all been talking about how one of the biggest needs in free agency is a big defensive center.

The Charlotte bobcats may not be villainous, but they definitely aren't going to do the Phoenix Suns any favors. They are going to try to get as much as is possible because they know teams like the Phoenix Suns are desperate to get as far as possible under the salary cap heading into free agency.

How do you figure that? If we also give Charlotte 3m, that saves them half his contract. Very close to nothing. Who else are they going to get? A free agent center this season will be much more expensive than Jahidi White, hate to tell you.

you seem to be assuming that the Charlotte bobcats would keep Jahidi White. If that's true it doesn't matter if the Phoenix Suns could give them $10 million in cash. White is still going to count $5.9 million against their salary cap next season. In fact if they didn't draft him there is a darn good chance they would trade him to a third team or waive him for that reason. If they think they can trade him they might be willing to take him in the draft for something like Charlotte's first-round draft pick. If they feel they will have to waive him they would probably want the #7 draft pick.

Jahidi White is much better than Elden Campbell. And younger.

Jahidi White is not better than Campbell. Campbell may be getting old, but he is still a better center than Jahidi White.

Joe Mama

 

[Chaplin]

Jahidi White is not better than Campbell. Campbell may be getting old, but he is still a better center than Jahidi White.

Joe Mama

That is just wrong. Campbell has been at the end of Detroit's bench all year--but of course, you see him play last night and all of a sudden he's great, right?

 

[Joe Mama]

That is just wrong. Campbell has been at the end of Detroit's bench all year--but of course, you see him play last night and all of a sudden he's great, right?

You have no idea how annoying that stupid face rolling it's eyes is. Campbell has been at the end of the Pistons' bench, but they are a team that is much deeper upfront. He is easily as good as Jahidi White defensively and on the boards, and he is much better offensively. He is just getting older, but White only has one more year on his contract anyhow.

BTW I noticed that you conveniently forgot to respond to the rest of my post. I hope that means you have come to your senses.

Joe

 

[Chaplin]

You have no idea how annoying that stupid face rolling it's eyes is. Campbell has been at the end of the Pistons' bench, but they are a team that is much deeper upfront. He is easily as good as Jahidi White defensively and on the boards, and he is much better offensively. He is just getting older, but White only has one more year on his contract anyhow.

BTW I noticed that you conveniently forgot to respond to the rest of my post. I hope that means you have come to your senses.

Joe

Oh yeah, I just bow down before you, Joe.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think you are overrating Jahidi White. The Phoenix Suns desperately needed and still need help in the middle, yet we are talking about unloading White's contract. We have all been talking about how one of the biggest needs in free agency is a big defensive center.

The Charlotte bobcats may not be villainous, but they definitely aren't going to do the Phoenix Suns any favors. They are going to try to get as much as is possible because they know teams like the Phoenix Suns are desperate to get as far as possible under the salary cap heading into free agency.



you seem to be assuming that the Charlotte bobcats would keep Jahidi White. If that's true it doesn't matter if the Phoenix Suns could give them $10 million in cash. White is still going to count $5.9 million against their salary cap next season. In fact if they didn't draft him there is a darn good chance they would trade him to a third team or waive him for that reason. If they think they can trade him they might be willing to take him in the draft for something like Charlotte's first-round draft pick. If they feel they will have to waive him they would probably want the #7 draft pick.



Jahidi White is not better than Campbell. Campbell may be getting old, but he is still a better center than Jahidi White.

Joe Mama

i agree w/ everything the mama says.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That is just wrong. Campbell has been at the end of Detroit's bench all year--but of course, you see him play last night and all of a sudden he's great, right?

i don't think you'd have seen jahidi play all year in detroit either.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Charlotte has to take 14 players in the expansion draft.

The Suns know this. The Bobcats can bluff all they want, but when they get down to the 12-14 picks in their draft, there will not be alot of better options out there than one year of Jahidi White for $3 million.

Oh, there's no way I'd take Campbell (and his contract) over White (and his contract).

Charlotte's problem won't be trying to avoid going over the cap limit, it will be trying to get above the minimum they have to spend without hogtying themselves too far into the future. Jahidi's contract works perfectly.

We also know that if we keep Jahidi, he becomes a commodity by the trade deadline. He allows teams to clear space for next summer.

No way should we give up a pick to move Jahidi.

 

[Mainstreet]

I guess it's you against the world on this one. The rest of the board thinks that Charlotte won't take White without compensation beyond the cash. But you think they will (or should, I'm not sure which). So we'll just have to wait and see.

I think there are a number of Suns supporters who think White can play. Let me make myself very clear here.

I like J. White as player and still think he can help the Suns this coming season at the center position. I think the Bobcats would be lucky to acquire White in the expansion draft even without financial compensation and certainly without a first round draft pick. If the Bobcats think they can do better, more power to them.

I do think the Suns should strengthen the team around Voskuhl and White with a further veteran addition at the C/PF position and additional help at the guard position. Even if the Suns draft a young center, he will take time to develop. If White were included in a trade for another veterean C/ PF who is an improvement, I certainly would reconsider.

I also think the Sun's defensive philosophy may be their biggest problem.

I guess I do not see how the Suns are going to be vastly improved by moving White. Perhaps only if the fantasy of acquiring Kobe comes true.

 

[Joe Mama]

Charlotte has to take 14 players in the expansion draft.

The Suns know this. The Bobcats can bluff all they want, but when they get down to the 12-14 picks in their draft, there will not be alot of better options out there than one year of Jahidi White for $3 million.

You may be right. It will be interesting to see what players from each team are left unprotected. I still think you're going to see teams bidding against each other to have their players taken or not taken in the expansion draft though.

Oh, there's no way I'd take Campbell (and his contract) over White (and his contract).

Jahidi White and Elden Campbell each have just next season left on their contracts. Campbell will make $4.4 million next year which is about $1.5 million less than White. For one season if their salaries were not an issue I would rather have Campbell.

Charlotte's problem won't be trying to avoid going over the cap limit, it will be trying to get above the minimum they have to spend without hogtying themselves too far into the future. Jahidi's contract works perfectly.

We also know that if we keep Jahidi, he becomes a commodity by the trade deadline. He allows teams to clear space for next summer.

No way should we give up a pick to move Jahidi.

I don't think the Charlotte bobcats will have any trouble meeting the minimum salary cap while leaving their future open. There will be plenty of players available in the expansion draft with one season left on their contracts. There will also be free agents willing to sign for the better minimum. There'll also be players available in trades.

I wouldn't mind giving up that future Cleveland deck to get rid of Jahidi White. If they're going to give up the #7 they had better be pretty sure of themselves in free agency. If they unload the #7 draft pick to move a player I know I'll be thinking that there is a very good chance that Kobe Bryant is going to be a Phoenix Sun next season.

In the end I expect that they will keep the draft pick and take the best player available. I'm just really hoping they don't overpay Okur to come here.

Joe Mama

 

[Joe Mama]

i agree w/ everything the mama says.

Chap, you could learn a thing or two from Ouchie.

Joe

 

[Chaplin]

Chap, you could learn a thing or two from Ouchie.

Joe

You wish.

 

[binkar]

Igoudala cannot shoot.

Reports from all his workouts have said that he shooting has been much improved and that they were very surprised at how well he has shot the ball.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

I dont really feel like getting into this, but here is my thought:

The Bobcats would take Jahadi White as one of their 14 players without requiring compensation, but only if the Suns weren't in a position where they NEEDED to clear salary.

The Bobcats can require some sort of compensation, and they know it. They are the suns only realistic opportunity to make a run for Kobe Bryant, so the Suns will be willing to pay a premium.

If the Suns still had Marbury and Penny on their team, and no shot of getting under the cap, I would think the Cats would take White. Since he is a big body, and in the last year of his deal, he could easily be used in a trade either this summer after the draft, or later in the season. More teams will be looking to save money, so it is quite possibly the Bobcats could turn White into some decent role players. The Cats have to take 14 players, and I really can't think of 14 better options for them.

White's contract is one of the reasons I have hoped they will find another way to clear salary. I think he will really be able to net something of value later in the season.

 

[George O'Brien]

I dont really feel like getting into this, but here is my thought:

The Bobcats would take Jahadi White as one of their 14 players without requiring compensation, but only if the Suns weren't in a position where they NEEDED to clear salary.

The Bobcats can require some sort of compensation, and they know it. They are the suns only realistic opportunity to make a run for Kobe Bryant, so the Suns will be willing to pay a premium.

If the Suns still had Marbury and Penny on their team, and no shot of getting under the cap, I would think the Cats would take White. Since he is a big body, and in the last year of his deal, he could easily be used in a trade either this summer after the draft, or later in the season. More teams will be looking to save money, so it is quite possibly the Bobcats could turn White into some decent role players. The Cats have to take 14 players, and I really can't think of 14 better options for them.

White's contract is one of the reasons I have hoped they will find another way to clear salary. I think he will really be able to net something of value later in the season.

If the Colangelos respond that they have giving up any chance of getting Kobe (which is plausible), then Charlotte's bluff could mean they will end up taking an even worse contract.

One thing about White that should be considered - he can do something very few NBA centers can do. He battle with Shaq in the paint. IMHO, White has done better than Ben Wallace at defending Shaq.

Ironically, I think if Amare improved on defense, White would play more. Amare's inability to defense the top PF's has meant that the center is expected to be very quick at double teams and then reversing to the weak side. White was simply too slow to do that. But when included in a stronger defensive team, his bulk and strength could be used to much greater advantage.

Campbell may be a better overall player, but I suspect White would be getting more minutes in the finals if he was on the Pistons.

 

[Errntknght]

The Suns cannot give up their first round pick this year without first satisfying SA's possible claim against our first round pick next year. I don't see how the normal evasive action of making an agreement before the draft to pick a certain player and consummating the deal after the draft pick has been made, is available to us and the Bobcats. Remember teams may only give draft picks and cash to Charlotte to bribe them - not a player to be named later.

An awful lot of people have talked about us giving that pick to the Bobcats without mentioning this little gotcha so maybe the league has said they will allow this seeming violation of their rule about future consecutive first round picks.

 

[George O'Brien]

The Suns cannot give up their first round pick this year without first satisfying SA's possible claim against our first round pick next year. I don't see how the normal evasive action of making an agreement before the draft to pick a certain player and consummating the deal after the draft pick has been made, is available to us and the Bobcats. Remember teams may only give draft picks and cash to Charlotte to bribe them - not a player to be named later.

An awful lot of people have talked about us giving that pick to the Bobcats without mentioning this little gotcha so maybe the league has said they will allow this seeming violation of their rule about future consecutive first round picks.

My read on it was that the Suns could not give up future picks, because they might be ones that would qualify for being taken by the Spurs. This one is obviously protected, so I can't see how the Spurs would have any say in it.

 

[Errntknght]

Our 2004 pick is a future pick until we use it. Our 2005 pick might go to SA so we may not trade away a future pick for the 2004 and 2006 drafts. (Of course, we also may not trade away picks for the years up to about 2010 until we satisfy SA's claim for a first round pick.)

The reason the rule is stated in terms of future first round picks is not to distinguish the current year's pick from years futher in the future but to distinguish picks you have traded in the past from ones in the future, however near. For example, if you trade away your 2004 pick you cannot trade away your 2005 pick before the 2004 draft but as soon as the 2004 pick is history you may then trade your 2005 pick. Thus you could trade away your first round picks in two consecutive years but never did you owe or possibly owe first round picks for two consecutive future drafts, which is what the rule prohibits.