The blown play and how the refs stole the game

[Stout]

I rarely post on here. Okay, I never post on here. I'm a huge Suns fan, but never get a chance to follow the NBA any more. I've been able to watch the last series and a half, however, and I was appalled at how, with one play, the refs managed to steal this game from the Suns.

You guessed it, the Amare-Horre (sp?) play. First, Horry flopped. I know I saw one of the posters on another thread defending the flopping in the NBA, but come on. Amare didn't touch Horre, and he barely pushed the BALL. Then Horre goes flying to the floor. Hmmm. Okay, no real problem there, as they missed the T...unless you want to look at tempo. That play spiked our tempo, and took us out of rythm, and wrongfully at that.

But, bad as that is, it's only secondary. WHERE WERE THE TWO F-ING FREE THROWS!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Mother FUIOPSET+()WEUER+()GY(W$UJU@#!~!!!!!!!!!!

Those free throws would have put us right in the game at the end, and we may not have even needed them if the call hadn't been completely botched in the first place. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGHHHH!!!

 

[green machine]

What got me was that a ref had to call the foul...meaning that since it was called, the ref had to know when...and it would seem that he called it while Amare was in the act of shooting...so, how, after all is said and done, were there no free throws?

 

[elindholm]

The thing is, it was right after that that Nash drew a blocking foul on Duncan. That was probably a makeup call. And since it was Duncan's fifth foul, he eased up on defense after that (and even spent time on the bench), making the Suns' offensive task easier. Stoudemire blew a layup right at the rim with a minute or so to go, but that was his way to earn back the Horry points right there -- if not for the makup call on Duncan, he doesn't get to the basket nearly so easily.

The Horry call was wrong, but it didn't decide the game.

 

[az1965]

The officiating in NBA in general has really declined. Bad calls are usually balanced out on both sides. Today's game was not decided by bad calls or refs. Better, experienced, poised team took younger, inexperienced team to school at the end of fourth quarter like they did in game 1.

We can take our frustrations out on refs and each other but the fact of the matter is that we will have to come up with something to beat Spurs at their own game like they are doing to us. Poor defense killed us in the end. Those open layups by Parker towards the end of fourth were killers. Nash has to do a better job. Someone needs to help Nash out by filling the lanes. Then the Ginobili & Horry dagger shots did it to us...

We are being outmatched, plane and simple. We will have to bring our A+ game for four quarters in order to have any hope.

 

[justAndy]

...


i have to admit to seeing a dubious call on Duncan for his 3rd or 4th foul.
let's not let the shaky ref'n - which hurts both teams equally in the course of a series - detract us from the facts about who is veteran and experienced, and who is deep in the playoffs for the 1st time in their careers, Nash and Jackson excepted...

 

[Chaz]

i have to admit to seeing a dubious call on Duncan for his 3rd or 4th foul.
let's not let the shaky ref'n - which hurts both teams equally in the course of a series - detract us from the facts about who is veteran and experienced, and who is deep in the playoffs for the 1st time in their careers, Nash and Jackson excepted...

Exactly.

There were plenty of bad calls. At this level refs don't decide games.

Find a way to win or go home, no matter what. Spurs know what it takes to win. It seems the Suns are still learning what basketball is like at this level.

 

[goldseraph]

The refs had nothing to do with it. The Spurs are a better team. Two of Duncan's fouls were ticky-tack and Amare was getting calls every time he is breathed on (as usual). Once again we gave up about 70% shooting in the 4th quarter. I'd look to that before blaming the refs.

 

[Evil Ash]

The refs have been awful this series but they've been awful both ways. We can't rely on the refs to win the games or else we become what we made fun of earlier in the postseason ... Mavs fans.

The Suns have to come out with a mentality that "the world is against us", don't expect calls from the refs or complain about them either just keep playing in spite of them. We lost this game on TOs and a lack of defensive rebounding

Although after saying all that I wish the officiating was better in the league but unfortunately ever since a whole bunch of officials were caught doing tax fraud the leagues' officiating has gone down the toilet.

 

[jibikao]

I don't think the refs helped Spurs to win but what I hate is refs are soooooooooooooooooooo used to this "Oh, I'll make it up to you later" mentality.

Yeah, Nash should have got a T for avoiding Horry to inbound later but if we had that 2FT, things may look a whole lot different and Nash wouldn't have to do that to avoid Horry passing out.


That's a CLEAR 2FT for Amare. You can't get any clear than that. They call the foul while Amare was driving in.


Ok, so instead of giving us 2FT, they gave a foul to Duncan.


While it is nice to get a makeup call, the refs just look REALLY bad for making up calls. Calls SHOULD have been called, did not and calls SHOULD NOT have been called, called. That's what's pissing the people off.


I would rather have them give Amare 2FT and don't give Duncan that foul if that's what the refs intended to do.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

glad to see the majority of you are resisting kingsfandom. i knew we had knowledgeable fans. thank god.

 

[Joe Mama]

I like Eric's take on that call. I disagree that the call against Duncan was a makeup call. He clearly rode Nash. Nash showed his frustration, and forced the referee to make the call. It was a good call. That said, Duncan would not have picked up that foul at that point if not for the botched situation on the previous play. It probably helped the Phoenix Suns.

If we are going to look at missed call we also have to look at the impact of that missed call. For instance if a San Antonio player travels without getting called but misses the shot it probably actually helps Phoenix assuming they get the defensive rebound. it gives them an opportunity to push the ball up the court.

I also wanted to say something about the calls that Amare Stoudemire gets. They are legitimate. He doesn't even have to exaggerate contact or anything like that. In fact he probably should go to the line a lot more. Amare is so fast and skilled around the basket that he probably gets fouled more than anybody in the NBA with the exception of Shaquille O'Neal, but Amare rarely gets away with offensive fouls. Amare is no Manu. He deserves to go to the line as much as he does.

This isn't like the playoff series against San Antonio a couple years ago. I haven't watched yesterday's game again, but I would say the Spurs have probably benefited a little from the officiating. It's been pretty good though. When these two teams played in the first round a couple years ago I thought the officiating was horribly lopsided in favor of San Antonio. That's just not the case anymore.

Joe Mama

 

[jibikao]

I like Eric's take on that call. I disagree that the call against Duncan was a makeup call. He clearly rode Nash. Nash showed his frustration, and forced the referee to make the call. It was a good call. That said, Duncan would not have picked up that foul at that point if not for the botched situation on the previous play. It probably helped the Phoenix Suns.

If we are going to look at missed call we also have to look at the impact of that missed call. For instance if a San Antonio player travels without getting called but misses the shot it probably actually helps Phoenix assuming they get the defensive rebound. it gives them an opportunity to push the ball up the court.

I also wanted to say something about the calls that Amare Stoudemire gets. They are legitimate. He doesn't even have to exaggerate contact or anything like that. In fact he probably should go to the line a lot more. Amare is so fast and skilled around the basket that he probably gets fouled more than anybody in the NBA with the exception of Shaquille O'Neal, but Amare rarely gets away with offensive fouls. Amare is no Manu. He deserves to go to the line as much as he does.

This isn't like the playoff series against San Antonio a couple years ago. I haven't watched yesterday's game again, but I would say the Spurs have probably benefited a little from the officiating. It's been pretty good though. When these two teams played in the first round a couple years ago I thought the officiating was horribly lopsided in favor of San Antonio. That's just not the case anymore.

Joe Mama

I agree with everything you said. Yes, Duncan did reach in but I bet NORMALLY they won't call that on him but since they F up Amare's, they felt they had to make it up. Bu that's a non shooting foul...

Another thing I would like Amare to improve is to protect the ball better when he spins. He leaves tons of space for people to slap. He got 5 turnovers last night and I think 3 of them came from being slapped away.

 

[jbeecham]

I think my biggest complaint about the refs has been in the 1st qtr of both games where they have let Nazh Mohammed get away with whatever he wants. He had at least 4 fouls on Amare in the 1st qtr of both games with no fouls called on him (Amare missed the shots and Spurs got the rebounds). Then there was Nazh lying in the paint for 8 seconds and holding Hunter's ankles so he couldn't go after a rebound with no call (foul or 3 seconds in the lane). Hunter should've put a boot to his head for pulling that cheap crap, but that would be a technical foul though unless it was Duncan doing it. These non-calls have really helped the Spurs get out to 13+ pt leads in each of the games.

 

[sunsfn]

Occasionally someone will say they called a ticky tack foul on so & so.

If you see them call that kind of foul on someone like say Duncan, it is because they have already given him a couple without calling them.

In the regular season a ticky tack foul will not be called the first time, (usually) in the playoffs it will not be called at least twice.

The hard foul in the regular season will almost always be called right away, in the playoffs you can get away with two hard fouls before they call them.

Hubie Brown explains this as good as any announcer I have heard.
He is announcing the suns game and I expect him to say this one of these games. If he already has I missed it. But over the years he has a great way of explaining the difference in the calls.

Of course one thing he says is that in the playoffs, the refs want the players to decide the game, but they also have to keep the game under control.

 

[Joe Mama]

I think my biggest complaint about the refs has been in the 1st qtr of both games where they have let Nazh Mohammed get away with whatever he wants. He had at least 4 fouls on Amare in the 1st qtr of both games with no fouls called on him (Amare missed the shots and Spurs got the rebounds). Then there was Nazh lying in the paint for 8 seconds and holding Hunter's ankles so he couldn't go after a rebound with no call (foul or 3 seconds in the lane). Hunter should've put a boot to his head for pulling that cheap crap, but that would be a technical foul though unless it was Duncan doing it. These non-calls have really helped the Spurs get out to 13+ pt leads in each of the games.

I was planning on watching the game today anyways, but I took the time to watch for things on both ends of the court that were missed or miscalled by the referees. It really wasn't that bad. In fact I would say the refereeing in the first game was worse, and that wasn't even that bad.

My only complaints really from the last game would be that Mohamed got away with several fouls in the first half, and Parker traveled two or three times quite obviously without any call. Each time he made baskets.

That play where Mohammed was holding on to Hunter's ankles was a difficult call for the referees. It was a mad scramble for a loose ball, and the foul was away from the ball. He was in the lane for about 8 seconds, but there's no rule against that once the shot goes up.

Joe Mama

 

[sunsfn]

If any of you think that the refs cost the suns points, (I do) wait until the next game. The Spurs get many many calls at home. It will be frustating to watch at times.

 

[Cheesebeef]

If any of you think that the refs cost the suns points, (I do) wait until the next game. The Spurs get many many calls at home. It will be frustating to watch at times.

OMG - are you really ALREADY starting to complain about the officiating 3 days ahead of time?

I really wish you guys could step out and see the way you're acting. You'd be ripping yourselves to shreds.

 

[KANIDJA]

I just hate that horry ****. he is the biggest whiner and biggest as**** I have ever seen in my life. After he flopped and feel on his ass he jumped and started going after Amare!!! I could not believe that. He needs to be fined for his act because that call definetely changed the game and gave them momentum.

 

[jibikao]

I watched the play several times...

Horry flopped or he somehow lost balance.

Amare didn't even push that hard. They were trying to grab the ball and Amare just "push it and let it go" and then you see a 6'10, 240lbs guy FLYING in the air and fall down.

And if you watch that replay. BOTH players didn't want to let go the ball. So why is it a foul on Amare when he actually "LET IT GO"?? It was a foul on Horry in the first place. Why couldn't Horry let go of the ball? If a call was called, just LET THE BALL GO damn it. Amare had the ball in his hand and he fouled him.

But then again, that extra push is unnecessary and it only seems real when a 240lbs guy flew in the air. The Might Amare!!

It's a flop and we've gotta learned this. Can Amare flop at all???!!!!

 

[KANIDJA]

Yes, and you do not see anything about this on TV. If it was someone from the laker or even Ginobili or Duncan instead of Amare you would see it all ovet the ESPN. That is what hurts me. This team doesn't get any recognition! Everyone just keeps saying how bad their defense is!! How about 62 wins? How about 31 win on the road??

This team is not done yet. I think that things are going to get interesting. I predict Suns in 7.

 

[jibikao]

Yes, and you do not see anything about this on TV. If it was someone from the laker or even Ginobili or Duncan instead of Amare you would see it all ovet the ESPN. That is what hurts me. This team doesn't get any recognition! Everyone just keeps saying how bad their defense is!! How about 62 wins? How about 31 win on the road??

This team is not done yet. I think that things are going to get interesting. I predict Suns in 7.

Mmmm, I may have to disagree a little bit. Spurs fans have been complaining that all they hear is SUNS THIS, NASH THAT, AMRE THIS... BLAH BLAH. lol I think we've got enough recognition so far.

What we need now is how to EARN our recognition. A WIN in Game 3 is all it takes baby.

 

[KANIDJA]

Nash deserved it. This team won 62 games.
Even Nash doesn't get the calls. Parker was all over him in the second half (game 2) and they never called a foul.
Simply, refs killed us in game 2. If half of the calls went our way we would have won and with JJ on ours side we would have been favorite to win the series. Highway robbery!

 

[jibikao]

Nash deserved it. This team won 62 games.
Even Nash doesn't get the calls. Parker was all over him in the second half (game 2) and they never called a foul.
Simply, refs killed us in game 2. If half of the calls went our way we would have won and with JJ on ours side we would have been favorite to win the series. Highway robbery!

As much as I would like to agree with you, I think maybe it's time for us to get physical as well. Parker did play really hard on Nash but his handchecking can get really overboard sometimes. I think Parker only got 1/2 calls on handchecking but when the game is tight, everything gets loose a bit and that's why we should be more physical.

 

[KANIDJA]

Agree, but we are not physical tam. We can't pretend to be something we are not. Suns won 62 games this season and they can't stop playing the way they played all year. It's too late. I agree that the should fould people harder, challenge everything (like Stackhouse challenged JJ) and flop more because that, obviously, wins games.

 

[jibikao]

Agree, but we are not physical tam. We can't pretend to be something we are not. Suns won 62 games this season and they can't stop playing the way they played all year. It's too late. I agree that the should fould people harder, challenge everything (like Stackhouse challenged JJ) and flop more because that, obviously, wins games.

Well, this is WCF. Do or Die. Part of the reason we don't want to foul is that we don't want to slower the pace of the game. But in the last few mins of 4th quarter, we seldom run anyway. I don't see why we can't start hacking.


Just a reminder... I remember back when Mavs played against Spurs in WCF, Don Nelson did this "Hack Bowen" strategy. It kinda worked. At least we are not giving up 2pt and it stopped the clock if we are down.

Just a thought... Bowen hasn't shot any FT so far. It will be interesting to see how he is doing. Obviously, Duncan isn't the guy to foul now. damn!