The Cardinals draft board: Here's my guess on their top 10 and why.

Stout

Hold onto the ball, Murray!
Joined
Dec 30, 2002
Posts
39,280
Reaction score
22,726
Location
Pittsburgh, PA--Enemy territory!
kerouac9 said:
All right, so you're pulling for a guy that you've never seen play, and have only heard the hype on since January. That's fine, but I think that you should make that clear on every post where you pimp Jay Cutler. At least Skkorp saw Phillip Rivers play in a bowl game.

Here's a review of Cutler's Pro Day. It's all well and good, but Cutler starts seeming shaky when there's a pass rush in front of him, not when he's throwing in shorts. These workouts are designed to feature what he can do. What I like about Leinart and Young is that they're at their best under fire, not in March. Josh McCown looked really good when nothing was at stake, too.

First off, I won't make a damn thing clear on every post. You can take that useless order and smoke it, unless you agree to make clear on every post you make you're a know-it-all that likes to pretend he's smarter than everybody by trying to force them to follow your posting instructions. You're incredibly pompous and rude, do you know that? 'You should make that clear on every post' indeed.

Second of all, I've barely seen any of these guys play, so that means they must all suck and we can't take them in the first round, right? By your own rationale, right? So, we can take Leinart, Young, Hali, Bush, or White. Those are the only guys I'm allowed to 'pimp', because I've seen them play.

Get over yourself man. I told you my opinion and you told me yours. I even gave you props for stating your opinion well earlier. DO NOT try to give me guidelines and orders for how I'm allowed to post and what I'm allowed to post. Ever.
 

john h

Registered User
LEGACY MEMBER
Joined
Sep 24, 2002
Posts
10,552
Reaction score
13
Location
Little Rock
kerouac9 said:
Call it whatever you want, but the guy has been making bad decisions basically since he declared (and at this point, maybe him declaring wasn't even the best decision that he's made). I'd like to think of that as "maturity," in the hope that he'll eventually grow out of making stupid decisions. If they're not maturity issues, then he's just a poor decision-maker, and that's worse.

Man, you're really backpedaling for your boy. I guess that's what Horns, do, though. I mean, it's not like Cedric Benson robbed some guy's house or anything, right? I like Vince Young and hope we take him at #10 if he's available, but let's call a spade a spade here. There are questions about what's going on in this guy's head, and people are piling on him all over the place.

Of course I do not know zip about Young only what I read and watching him in a few games. The media provides many of us what the coaches and scouts are thinking. I doubt anyone on this board is up tight with these people so to be somewhat informed I do listen to and read what the media has to say. There are a lot questions being raised about Young. I have seen more articles and listened to more TV guys than I care to mention who have questioned his ability to make it in the NFL. He is by no means a slam dunk and I would guess the odds of him going in the top 10 are no better than 50/50. There are enough questions about him that I would want all my scouts and assistant coaches to agree he was the man to take at number 10 if he was there.
 

john h

Registered User
LEGACY MEMBER
Joined
Sep 24, 2002
Posts
10,552
Reaction score
13
Location
Little Rock
spanky1 said:
You are the only person that I am aware of that has suggested that VY was projected to be a WR at any time....eiher before the NCAA game against USC or previously during his collegiate career. Where the heck did you come up with this idea?

I suggested just after the National Championship game that he might make a better runner than a QB. I was shot down on that because it was noted he is 6'5" and that is to tall for a QB. Matt Jones is doing better than OK as a wide receiver and was a QB. Young being the athlete he is it would not surprise me if he ended up doing something other than just throwing the ball. A few more weeks and we will all get the real skinny on what the teams think of him. If he gets all the way to number 10 I would question WHY? If he is that good a QB there should be an army of teams wanting to trade up and get him.
 

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
37,990
Reaction score
28,815
Location
Gilbert, AZ
Duckjake said:
Serious this time.

Link to Vanderbilt vs Arkansas highlight. Especially for JohnH.

Link to main site with video clips of several prospects.

http://vucommodores.com/sports/football/release.asp?release_id=1958

http://mb4.scout.com/fchargersupdatefrm1.showMessage?topicID=7278.topic

I don't take a lot from Vandy's game against Richmond. I did find the Alabama tape interesting, though. Anyone who says Cutler has great mechanics or is the prototype pocket passer is on crack. The guy never has his feet right under him, stands totally still in the pocket, and for whatever reason seems to make the "fall away" pass every single time. That might work against college defenses, but he's not stepping into his passes at all, and that has to be concerning to NFL coaches.

It looks like he's expecting to get creamed every time he lets go of the ball.
 

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
37,990
Reaction score
28,815
Location
Gilbert, AZ
Stout said:
Second of all, I've barely seen any of these guys play, so that means they must all suck and we can't take them in the first round, right? By your own rationale, right? So, we can take Leinart, Young, Hali, Bush, or White. Those are the only guys I'm allowed to 'pimp', because I've seen them play.

No, that's not my rationale, but I think that if I were pimping a guy that I'd never seen before, I'd be up front about it and say, "well, I've only heard Vernon Davis getting pimped by other people, and never really seen him at all, but those people who I guess have seen him play convinced me that he's my guy, and the Cards should do everything they can to get this guy that I've never seen play."

When I talk about a prospect that I've never seen, I'll cop to it. Just because you haven't seen them doesn't mean they suck, but it does mean that you really don't know anything about what you're talking about. I have seen many of the prospects, so I guess we can discuss who has the more informed opinion on each of them: the guy who's seen prospects play, read multiple draft publications, and constantly scans the internet for extra tidbits, or the guy that knows everything he knows about the 2006 draft from this web site.

Maybe I should start a poll. :shrug:
 

Duckjake

LEGACY MEMBER
LEGACY MEMBER
Joined
Jun 10, 2002
Posts
32,190
Reaction score
317
Location
Texas
kerouac9 said:
I don't take a lot from Vandy's game against Richmond. I did find the Alabama tape interesting, though. Anyone who says Cutler has great mechanics or is the prototype pocket passer is on crack. The guy never has his feet right under him, stands totally still in the pocket, and for whatever reason seems to make the "fall away" pass every single time. That might work against college defenses, but he's not stepping into his passes at all, and that has to be concerning to NFL coaches.

It looks like he's expecting to get creamed every time he lets go of the ball.

The one thing new I got from the Richmond tape is that Cutler was running option plays.
 

Stout

Hold onto the ball, Murray!
Joined
Dec 30, 2002
Posts
39,280
Reaction score
22,726
Location
Pittsburgh, PA--Enemy territory!
kerouac9 said:
No, that's not my rationale, but I think that if I were pimping a guy that I'd never seen before, I'd be up front about it and say, "well, I've only heard Vernon Davis getting pimped by other people, and never really seen him at all, but those people who I guess have seen him play convinced me that he's my guy, and the Cards should do everything they can to get this guy that I've never seen play."

When I talk about a prospect that I've never seen, I'll cop to it. Just because you haven't seen them doesn't mean they suck, but it does mean that you really don't know anything about what you're talking about. I have seen many of the prospects, so I guess we can discuss who has the more informed opinion on each of them: the guy who's seen prospects play, read multiple draft publications, and constantly scans the internet for extra tidbits, or the guy that knows everything he knows about the 2006 draft from this web site.

Maybe I should start a poll. :shrug:
Well, that doesn't mean I need to open or close every post about Cutler saying 'but I've never seen him, so I don't really know what I'm talking about'. I've already made it abundantly clear I haven't, so no, I won't be qualifying my posts in the future, thanks.

And no, I haven't seen him, but many draft sources out there have. The same sources you have access to. So, while you have seen more tape, and certainly have enjoyed a bit more access to actual tape, you really don't know more than I do. You're an amateur just like everyone else, and my opinion is just as valid as yours, thanks.
 

duckfallas

All Star
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Posts
669
Reaction score
0
kerouac9 said:
Have you seen him throw in game conditions? I'll admit that I haven't, and I think a lot of guys look good in shorts that end up being poor when the games count. Again, Josh McCown, Kyle Boller, etc. spring to mind. What about his release? What about his dropback?

Be suspicious of players that suddenly spring to the top of the board once they stop playing games. Maybe he's great, but TSN compares him to Jake Plummer, a guy that needed a decade in the NFL and an offense designed specifically for him to live up to his second round drafting.

That is what I thought about Cutler at first too. TSN and others do compare him to Plummer but what I saw was something more along the lines of a McCown or a Favre. Cutler is bigger and stronger than Plummer and there is no comparison between the arms. Cutler throws a rope on the out and the ball gets there in a hurry. I'll admit I haven't seen the guy play a whole game and that is why I doubted him and believed all the BS. But after watching him throw and run, I think Cutler has the skills and potential to be a solid NFL QB.
 

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
37,990
Reaction score
28,815
Location
Gilbert, AZ
duckfallas said:
That is what I thought about Cutler at first too. TSN and others do compare him to Plummer but what I saw was something more along the lines of a McCown or a Favre. Cutler is bigger and stronger than Plummer and there is no comparison between the arms. Cutler throws a rope on the out and the ball gets there in a hurry. I'll admit I haven't seen the guy play a whole game and that is why I doubted him and believed all the BS. But after watching him throw and run, I think Cutler has the skills and potential to be a solid NFL QB.

The tape I saw--a highlight tape--had his feet all over the place and his only dropbacks were on play action. No real dropbacks. Like it or not, he's as much of a project as Vince Young is, without all the upside. His throwing sequence is U-G-L-Y.
 

Zeno

Ancient
Joined
Sep 24, 2002
Posts
15,577
Reaction score
5,388
Location
Fort Myers
An ESPN insider article...very good read

I thought this might help add fuel to the fire on the Young Vs. Cutler debate....

Young's upside sets him apartBy Todd McShay
Scouts Inc.
Archive


Matt Leinart did not participate in the workout portion of last month's combine and USC's pro day is not until Sunday. Still, I've seen enough over the course of the last three years to confidently say Leinart is the top quarterback prospect in the 2006 draft.

Far more difficult is deciding whether Texas' Vince Young or Vanderbilt's Jay Cutler should be the second quarterback to come off the board.

Young seemed to slip into hibernation following his extraordinary performance in the Longhorns' upset victory over the Trojans in the Rose Bowl on Jan. 4. His absence from the highlights created a vacuum and Cutler has benefited. During the 11-week stretch between the Rose Bowl and last week's pro day workout in Austin, Texas, it was easy to get caught up in the hype tornado surrounding Cutler. After all, the only new information regarding Young's draft stock was an embarrassing Wonderlic score (15 was his best of two attempts).

Meanwhile, Cutler clearly distinguished himself as the best quarterback prospect at the Senior Bowl. He had a solid all-around performance at the combine. He scored a 29 on the Wonderlic, ran the 40-yard dash in the high 4.7-second range, notched 23 reps on the 225-pound bench press and displayed the second-best arm strength of the participating quarterback prospects. The fact that he also wowed scouts with a strong passing performance in windy conditions at his Vanderbilt pro day on March 17 doesn't hurt, either.

With that being said, it's critical to remember that the draft process is a marathon, not a sprint. Over the course of the last week I have gone back and studied five game films on both Young and Cutler while also analyzing Cutler's combine workout compared to that of Young's pro day workout. Although the decision is admittedly still not an easy one, I can make a stronger case for drafting Young than I can for Cutler.



Although his mechanics have been questioned, Young has come a long way as a passer.
Unlike Leinart, both Young and Cutler project as developmental prospects in the NFL. Cutler has more traditional qualities in terms of his throwing motion and the scheme in which he played at Vanderbilt. He also possesses the stronger arm. However, Cutler's mechanics and overall decision-making skills must be improved upon before he's ready to compete for a starting job in the NFL.

Although Young has as much or more work that needs to be done to his game, it's obvious to me that Young's upside is far greater -- and that trait is what sets these two apart. If I'm going to spend the type of time and money it will require to develop each of these unpolished prospects, I'd rather invest it in the individual who has the higher ceiling.

Young's release point is lower than ideal and his throwing motion is unorthodox, but he gets rid of the ball quickly and at nearly 6-foot-5, he is tall enough to get away with the three-quarter release. Although he lacks elite arm strength like Cutler, Young can make all the necessary throws at the next level and has a stronger arm than several solid NFL starters.

Young's accuracy as a passer has improved significantly over the course of the last two seasons. On film it is easy to witness Young's maturation in that department, and the statistics serve as confirmation. After completing just 59.2 percent of his throws as a sophomore in 2004, he completed 65.2 percent as a junior last season. It's not necessarily fair to compare statistics between the two because there are so many outside influences that play roles in those numbers, but football isn't always fair. The bottom line is that Young's completion percentage was 6.1 points better than Cutler's (59.1) in 2005, and that counts for something.

There is no comparison when it comes to athleticism and playmaking skills. Cutler has good mobility and is a tough competitor, but Young, who has exceptional quickness and elusiveness for his size, is far superior in this facet of the game. Right or wrong, Young was not planning on running at his pro day workout and he still ran in the area of 4.5 seconds when talked into it by NFL brass at the last minute. Although he won't be able to run away from defenders as easily in the NFL, Young will still be a dangerous running threat who will keep defenses honest. Perhaps more importantly, he will develop into one of the league's best when it comes to generating second-chance passing opportunities with his feet.

There is understandably some concern regarding Young's ability to hold up physically as a mobile quarterback who will take a lot more hits during a 16-game NFL season. After all, most mobile quarterbacks in the league are finding it increasingly difficult to stay on the field (see: Michael Vick, Daunte Culpepper, Donovan McNabb, Steve McNair and Ben Roethlisberger). However, Young is a big, strong and flexible athlete with no history of durability issues.

Finally, Young might have bombed the Wonderlic, but most people who have met with both Young and Cutler would agree that Young is a greater leader and a more mature person. From what I can see, Young has more of the "it factor" that it takes to be a successful quarterback in the NFL.

There's no question that Cutler has the physical, mental and intangible characteristics to develop into a good starting quarterback at the next level. It's just that Young has the potential to be great in those areas. That's why if I were forced to lay my career on the line and recommend one or the other to a general manager when his team is on the clock on draft day, I wouldn't hesitate to select Young over Cutler.


Other tiebreaker recommendations
Running back: Laurence Maroney (Minnesota) vs. DeAngelo Williams (Memphis)
Maroney's biggest strengths: Frame, vision, initial burst, second-gear and change-of-direction skills.
Maroney's biggest weaknesses: Pad level, power, durability, passing game experience and overall blocking skills.

Williams' biggest strengths: Vision, running style, center of gravity, toughness and versatility.
Williams' biggest weaknesses: Durability, height and pass-pro technique.


Recommendation: Williams
Not only is USC's Reggie Bush the best running back prospect in this year's class, he's also the top prospect regardless of position. There is, however, a question as to how the other three first-round running back prospects (Maroney, Williams and USC's LenDale White) will come off the board. Because White is an early-entry prospect who also did not run or work out at the combine, I've chosen to leave him out of the debate for now -- we'll find out far more at USC's pro day. However, it's fairly clear after gathering all the information that Williams is a stronger candidate than Maroney.

Maroney is a slashing back with impressive vision, initial burst and top-end speed. He also has a great feel for the zone-blocking scheme, which makes him a good candidate for a team like the Broncos, who run a similar scheme and own a late first-round pick. But Maroney lacks ideal experience in the passing game, is not as thickly built and has not proved capable of handling the load as a premier back.

Williams comes with some durability issues of his own and he also has more mileage on his legs. However, breaking down the film and workout results of these two reveals Williams to be a far more versatile back who can fit well in most schemes at the next level. One of the biggest questions regarding Williams as an NFL prospect was his top-end speed. Those questions were answered when Williams (4.41 and 4.47) ran faster times than Maroney (4.48 and 4.49) at their respective pro day workouts.


Wide receiver: Santonio Holmes (Ohio State) vs. Chad Jackson (Florida)
Holmes' biggest strengths: Quickness, speed, run-after-catch explosiveness, body control, toughness and playmaking skills.
Holmes' biggest weaknesses: Size, concentration and overall inconsistency.


Jackson's biggest strengths: Size-speed combination, solid build, power, leaping ability, long arms, big hands, quickness and fluidity.
Jackson's biggest weaknesses: Erratic production, offensive system in college, concentration lapses and route-running polish.


Recommendation: Jackson
There's not a lot that separates the top two wide receiver prospects in this year's draft and ultimately it may be team preference that decides whether Holmes or Jackson is the first to come off the board. The film shows that Jackson will disappear from games more often, but Holmes isn't as consistent as scouts would like him to be, either. As such, neither is worth selecting in the top 15. It is my opinion, though, that Jackson is the better all-around prospect because he is bigger, stronger and faster. In a noticeably weak class of wide receivers, Jackson and Holmes should both be off the board by the time the Patriots select at pick No. 21.


Outside linebacker: Chad Greenway (Iowa) vs. Ernie Sims (Florida State)
Greenway's biggest strengths: Size, production, fluidity and coverage skills for his size, natural instincts and motor.
Greenway's biggest weaknesses: Ideal top-end speed, ability to take on blockers, explosive power and pursuit-angle consistency.


Sims' biggest strengths: Toughness, aggressiveness, explosiveness, power, quickness, speed, athleticism and motor.
Sims' biggest weaknesses: Discipline, technique, recognition skills, height and isolated off-the-field incident.


Recommendation: Sims
Ohio State's A.J. Hawk is the clear-cut best outside linebacker prospect in this year's draft class. After Hawk, however, the debate has seemingly been boiled down to Greenway and Sims for the second player taken at the position.

When it comes to postseason workouts, there's a fine line between getting caught up in all the numbers and ignoring the warning signs. As far as I'm concerned, this year's postseason workouts have been eye-opening in regard to the NFL potential of both Greenway and Sims.

Greenway was the more decorated collegiate player and he's more polished in terms of his recognition skills and overall technique at this point. However, Greenway's lack of ideal speed and strength have become quite concerning over the course of the last two months. Adding to those concerns are the inconsistencies I see on film from Greenway in regard to his ability to take on blockers and pursuit angles as a tackler.

Sims is far from a polished prospect. In fact, he plays out of control at times and has room for improvement when it comes to his recognition skills. Sims also lacks ideal size. However, he bulked up to 234 pounds at his recent pro day, when he ran the 40-yard dash in the 4.4-second area. Sims is also the tougher and more explosive linebacker, despite Greenway's 3-inch and 10-pound size advantage.

When it's all said and done, Greenway might be ready to contribute on defense sooner, but Sims should develop into the more versatile playmaker and should make a bigger impact over the long haul. That's why I think Sims is worth drafting somewhere between picks No. 11 and 15; Greenway is not worth a top-20 selection.


Inside linebacker: Abdul Hodge (Iowa) vs. D'Qwell Jackson (Maryland)
Hodge's biggest strengths: Toughness, short-area quickness, explosive power, tackling skills, pursuit angles, discipline and leadership skills.
Hodge's biggest weaknesses: Ideal size, phone booth, top-end speed and range/playmaking skills in coverage.


Jackson's biggest strengths: Instincts, versatility, aggressiveness, toughness, diagnostic skills, quickness, agility, motor and playmaking skills in coverage.
Jackson's biggest weaknesses: Size, lower-body strength, taking on blocks and durability.


Recommendation: Jackson
Neither Jackson nor Hodge grades out as a first-round prospect in the linebacker-heavy draft class, but both are likely to be off the board midway through Round 2. In all reality, there is very little that separates the two. Hodge is a bit bigger but Jackson is a bit more athletic.

The key difference, in my opinion, is that Jackson projects as an every-down linebacker who should be able to contribute both in coverage (eight career INTs) and as a pass rusher (10½ career sacks). Hodge, on the other hand, is effective on the blitz (seven career sacks) but he lacks ideal coverage skills (zero career INTs) and will be somewhat limited on obvious passing downs in the NFL.

Scouts Inc. watches games, breaks down film and studies football from all angles for ESPN Insider.
 
Last edited:

Staff online

Forum statistics

Threads
547,357
Posts
5,350,713
Members
6,303
Latest member
Sunchaser
Top