The Changing West

[elindholm]

His evaluation of Amare might lead us to conclude that his evaluation of Okur is of similar quality.

Ah, I get it -- same coach. Sorry, I was a little slow there.

My assessment of Okur is based on what I've seen when he's been on the floor, not on his limited minutes. But I take your point.

 

[Joe Mama]

He doesn't have the mentality of a point guard. His main goal never seems to be getting his teammates involved. He is an exciting player but he doesn't make his teammates better.

IMHO

I still don't believe a guy that isn't trying to get his teammates involved an average 8-9 assists per game in today's NBA. IMO once it became clear that the offense should run through Amare Stoudemire it also became clear that Marbury was not the best fit with the team. That doesn't mean Marbury isn't a good point guard however. In fact I thought that New York team before Keith Van Horn was traded was a much better fit for him. He likes to penetrate and kick out, and that team was very good at knocking down the open shots.

Joe Mama

 

[scotsman13]

One thing about Utah, they have better coaching than us. That was apparent last year when they overachieved with the talent they had. I saw them at AWA, and they whipped our butts! Kinda like Spain versus the USA. Utah just plays better as a team. I have to grudgingly give Sloan a LOT of props.

yea utah did play well as a team. but i was at the last game of the year against utah. and let me tell we beat them in almost every area that game. marion did a very good job against ak47 to take him out of the game. utah had no answer for amare and they still dont.

just like any other job out there, there are people who are good in one area or another of that job. sloan is very good at getting his team to play slow team ball. coach d is a teacher. he is very good at developing young players. larry brown is a very good xo coach. up till this off season most people beleived that phil jackson was a great coach for helping the players work together. do you really think sloan or brown would have gotten as much out of amare as what johnson and coach d have? i dont.

 

[NugzFan]

Parker's overated. I'd like to see him without Merlin.

There's a reason why Sam's played for like 12 teams.

Kidd just had microfracture surgery. I don't think anybody has ever come back from this. I can't believe more people haven't discussed this.

One of these guys MIGHT be better but I'm still sticking with my top 3 assessment.

And I added TEAM because players like Anti-Franchise and Marbury are just masquerading as point guards.

well geez - you can bring up negative aspects about EVERY player...doesnt make them lower than nash necessarily.

 

[Errntknght]

scotsman, "but i was at the last game of the year against utah. and let me tell we beat them in almost every area that game."

I remember that game, too. Utah was down from just having been eliminated from the playoffs and we jumped all over them. In the other three games that year they whacked us good so I wouldn't put too much onto that one game.

"sloan is very good at getting his team to play slow team ball. coach d is a teacher. he is very good at developing young players...[snip]...do you really think sloan or brown would have gotten as much out of amare as what johnson and coach d have? i dont."

Sloan is very good at developing young players - check their roster and you'll see that the Jazz are just as young as our team. Don't you suspect that getting them to play so well as a team took lots of teaching and developing? I do.

As far as Amare is concerned, I'd say that FJ and coach Mikey have done a terrible job of developing him. All that's improved are his repretoire of shots attacking the basket and his jump shot. He still turns the ball over a bundle due to bad decisions as to when to attack, his individual defense has improved slightly but his team defense hasn't progressed noticeably, his rebounding is due his athletic ability (not blocking out), and his team offense is essentially nil. We talk about running the offense through Amare but so far there has been no development of him as a playmaker so we can run the offense to Amare all we want, but not through him. I wish that would change but last season didn't give anything to base hope on.

BTW, I'm not picking on Amare... no one else gave evidence of being taught much either, especially in the critical areas of team defense and team offense.

Alvin Gentry (new asst coach) may turn out to be the best thing that happened to the Suns this summer. I vaguely remember him as a guard in the old ABA and he's headed up the Pistons and Raptors for a couple of years each. He wasn't a resounding success but it could be that he does understand the rudiments of the team game, something the rest of the staff sorely lacks. I rather expect D'Antoni to put him in charge of the defense because he acknowleged that the team was hurting in that aspect of the game - not that it wasn't obvious to everyone.

 

[cepstrum]

As far as Amare is concerned, I'd say that FJ and coach Mikey have done a terrible job of developing him. All that's improved are his repretoire of shots attacking the basket and his jump shot. He still turns the ball over a bundle due to bad decisions as to when to attack, his individual defense has improved slightly but his team defense hasn't progressed noticeably, his rebounding is due his athletic ability (not blocking out), and his team offense is essentially nil. We talk about running the offense through Amare but so far there has been no development of him as a playmaker so we can run the offense to Amare all we want, but not through him. I wish that would change but last season didn't give anything to base hope on.

I'm not sure I agree with this completely. While I agree that amare has definetly progressed more offensively than defensively, I wouldn't say that the coaches are to blame. I'm not sure exactly who he works with, but if I had to guess, up until now he probably worked with coach Iavorani and Gugrich. Both are known good big men teachers. I think part of the problem with amare is that he is somewhat of a stats guy (I can already see some people jumping all over me for this comment!). He loves offense. He's only 21 and that will change once he figures out that o without d can't win.

 

[Errntknght]

"up until now he probably worked with coach Iavorani and Gugrich. Both are known good big men teachers."

I know they have good reputations but watching Jake and Amare for 3 and 2 years, I just don't see the kind of improvement in the basics that I expect. At one time I speculated that the assistants were okay but FJ was so awful that he undid whatever good they managed to do... but that's a pretty weak argument to begin with and losing vigor every day.

 

[George O'Brien]

Amare has a year and a half experience. Everyone who has watched him talks about how fast he has developed and how much more quickly he has grown that expected for a guy straight out of HS. Name a big man that young and with that little experience who is more accomplished?

As for the coaching of Jake, I think the coaches have done wonders. Here is a short armed, skinny, guy with minimal athletic talent who somehow manages to be producitve. IMHO he is not good enough to start for a top team, but compare him to Jason Collins who started for the Nets and he's comparable:

Jake Voskuhl
Phoenix Suns
Position: C
Height: 6-11 Weight: 245
College: Connecticut '00
Player file | Team stats

2003-04 Statistics
PPG 6.6
RPG 5.2
APG .9
SPG .64
BPG .38
FG% .507
FT% .740
3P% .000
MPG 24.3


Jason Collins
New Jersey Nets
Position: C
Height: 7-0 Weight: 260
College: Stanford '01
Player file | Team stats

2003-04 Statistics
PPG 5.9
RPG 5.1
APG 2.0
SPG .86
BPG .72
FG% .424
FT% .739
3P% .000
MPG 28.5

Collins was a #18 pick in 2001 while Voskuhl was a 33rd pick in the 2000 draft. I suspect Collins is a better defender, but Voskuhl has shown the most improvement.

 

[Errntknght]

George, "Amare has a year and a half experience."

He's had two full years. So he was injured part of the time - he can use that time to study up on the game.

"Everyone who has watched him talks about how fast he has developed and how much more quickly he has grown that expected for a guy straight out of HS. Name a big man that young and with that little experience who is more accomplished?"

Amare looked much the same after his first few weeks on the floor as he does now. Like I said his repretoire of moves and shots has expanded but the parts of his game where you'd expect coaching to show the most haven't progressed much - the things I listed in my post - the most crucial being the teamwork aspects of his play. I'm sure you don't remember but within a couple of months of his starting I posted several times that he since he was already such a forced to reckoned with down low, the coaches needed to get started teaching him how to pass and designing plays or maneuvers in which he was expected to pass or where it was an option. It hasn't started yet. (Why answer my rather specific post with generalities that I know as well as you do?)

"As for the coaching of Jake, I think the coaches have done wonders. Here is a short armed, skinny, guy with minimal athletic talent who somehow manages to be producitve. IMHO he is not good enough to start for a top team, but compare him to Jason Collins who started for the Nets and he's comparable:"

Jake started twenty games or so shortly after we traded for him and, believe it or not, he played very much the same then as he does now. The most notable improvement in his game is that when he gets an opening to the hoop now he takes it quick and hard whereas before he looked around to dump the ball off and missed the opening. (I commend the coaches for that change if they had anything to do with it.) In fact, early on with the Suns they ran an occasional play in which he passed the ball to a back cutter and he did it rather well - have you noticed progress along the line of that promising start? Me neither. One of FJ's influences on Jake was to have him start chasing all over the court ala Bo Outlaw, which resulted in Jake gathering fouls at a much higher rate than usual. (In particular, every time his man set a screen for a guard, Jake would switch to the guard and foul him forthwith.) That took some time to wear off but thankfully it did, though he still has relapses now and then.
Another specific thing that Jake has always done is to use his hands instead of his body in jockeying for position on defense and rebounds. Refs look for that and nail him for fouls constantly, as they should. Where's our esteemed coaching staff? Sheesh, make him practice in a straightjacket if you have to but get the guy to use his body!
I don't really care for his defensive technique of putting his arms straight up and wading into a shooter - guess what, refs are looking for that body contact, too. Better he should take a swipe at the ball and get his money's worth because he's going to be called for a foul. I don't remember that too early so maybe the coaches here get credit for that defensive gem...

 

[George O'Brien]

I keep wondering if we are watching the same team.