The Devin Booker non-appreciation thread.

[1tinsoldier]

apparently, it is now "official policy" that critical thinking in a thread noted as an "appreciation thread" is considered "trolling."

So, to be fair, though there are surely things to appreciate about Booker's decade as a Sun, that goes in the "Booker is the best Sun ever...and it isn't even close" thread. This is the "that guy" thread by this "dum, dum" who was ushered out of there. I'd like to think it's a bully-free space for anyone who wants the best future for the Suns, period. (and regardless of any fans attachment to any one player).

While the Suns broadcasters have been pushing the Booker bandwagon hard the past 2 weeks (they did a 3 minute bit on his 70 point game twice tonight) there's other opinions being suppressed.

For example, do you think Booker's 9 turnovers in a loss tonight will be mentioned -- by anyone. Even though he's a record setter in that dept too. Player 4 on the all-time game turnover list with 9 (which he now accomplished 5 times). But Nash had bad nights too, so I'll leave that feat off my non-appreciation list for now.

More importantly, isn't a player's value based on their performance on both offense AND defense? How can that side of the court be so blatently ignored?

WHAT I DON'T APPRECIATE:

1. Amidst the fanfare of scoring the most points in his decade here, no one mentions that his defensive rating makes him the #1 worst rated defender in Suns history (StatMuse.com).

2. Fans can argue about whether he's a top 12 NBA player, even as he's on the outskirts of the 24 players picked for the All-Star game, but his defensive rating is 12th worst in the entire NBA.

3. The Suns are the worst clutch shooting team in the league for 2 years and Booker is the worst on the team (besides a few bench players). And because i was accused of reverse "cherry-picking" his 18% shooting in the last 2 minutes of close games, here's this season's 5 minute clutch stats from NBA.com.

100% Nurkic, Plumlee, Oso, and Richards. Big men in close, of course.
56% Royce O'Neale
50% Kevin Durant:
43% Grayson Allen:
30% Tyus Jones
28% Bradley Beal
24% Devin Booker

4. His contract is among the 5th most expensive in the NBA

"don't shoot the messenger." that's just the facts folks. Feel free to verify them yourself.

 

[1tinsoldier]

aka the SAVE THE SUNS, TRADE BOOKER thread for a more descriptive title.

 

[1tinsoldier]

the All-Star additions will be announced today. Eddie Johnson said Booker shouldn't make it, and Tom Chambers said he should because "he's a regular now." The Ant Man showed why he's more deserving than Booker last night and clearly when he lead his team to a sweep of the Suns and Booker only showed up for one of the 4 losses.

just the facts

now, some opinion

Booker is likeable. I don't think he connects with teammates, except when the "twins" Cam & Bridges were on the team, but i think he's a good guy. I don't think the Ant Man is (but i was wrong about Barkley and Durant before they joined the Suns). Igor and Monty were particularly good guys too. But I strongly pushed for their replacement too.

I'm not hanging out with any of them. They're being paid, like tens of thousands of dollars per minute of game time and i'm friggin spending 300 hours a year watching so you're damn straight i'm gonna have something blunt to say about their performance!

there's 2 key mechanisms at play with Booker:

1. the Peter Principle -- people great at one job can be bad when elevated to a higher position. Booker = good as a role player with a reasonable salary, bad as a leader, point guard, go-to guy in critical situations, super-max player sucking the ability to hire great players around him.

2. despite his decade of being "the man" on the Suns through historically bad records and epic meltdowns, aside from a terrific run with CP3 steering the ship, the Suns PR team is sticking with the build-around-Book plan. It's counter-productive, though. Losing leads to lost revenue for the org, stadium, merchandising, and forums like this. And it's their own fault. They created the hype that we see now played out over "most points of a Suns player" which is an empty stat considering his longevity here and historically poor results. Ish (another good guy, especially for an owner), clearly concluded that the fan-base the Suns built for Booker is still hooked on the hype and is not ready to move on.

The majority of readers here are ready because there are some dissenting voices but the bully's do keep them in check. Listeners of Suns radio, however, would be shocked with a Booker trade. (one of the radio hosts said he would quit)

MORE ON THE HYPE MACHINE

No, the mods here don't have to be on Ish's payroll to buy in. But, there is absolutely payroll at work in the community. When the Sarver scandal hit (after a decade or 2 of suppression) there were surrogates publishing positive Sarver spin articles.

beware my friends the bullcrap is going to get much worse much faster. In just a couple of months, the profiteers have learned that misinformation, misdirection, and outright lies does work. So now from politics, to sports, to food, the sellers are and will be using un-checked false-hoods and confusion to promote their products. Just yesterday a saw a self-procalaimed expert claim that FIBER is bad for your health. Get it? If some say fiber is good, and others say fiber is bad, "screw it, i can't trust any information any more. Not trust the news. Not trust the scientists. Just do what i want and shovel more potato chips down my pie hole while i enjoy the game with my favorite player and buy his new sneakers the video game with him on the cover!"

oh, and speaking of video games, they put Booker on the cover, but "ball don't lie." Check this clip that shows Booker playing defense based on the statistical computer programming. How many times have we seen this, including last night...

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

 

[1tinsoldier]

So, the motto of that last post is, whether it's sports or politics,
WHEN SOMEONE SHOWS YOU WHO THEY ARE FOR A DECADE, BELIEVE THEM!

in Booker's case, what he is, is a good guy with an ego that has priced him into a position of being a negative going forward for the Suns and their fans

 

[Covert Rain]

I am actually with you on multiple opinions about Booker but I totally disagree with your take on the other thread. You being called out has nothing to do with not wanting any critical thinking.

That is a Booker appreciation thread. I have expressed that I don't think Booker is the best player ever in a Suns uniform. I stand by that opinion. I think he is the best scorer in Suns history but he wasn't as good as Nash or Charles in terms of overall impact to the team or his overall impact to the league (Nash and Barkley were MVPs and perennial all-stars). He simply isn't on their level and I am sticking to it.

I didn't do what you have done on that thread despite agreeing with you with some of your points about him. The mods are 100% correct that constantly criticizing him on that thread (even if he deserves some of it) is not what that thread is for. That's what the game threads are for and evidently this thread.

 

[1tinsoldier]

I am actually with you on multiple opinions about Booker but I totally disagree with your take on the other thread. That is a Booker appreciation thread. I have expressed that I don't think Booker is the best player ever in a Suns uniform. I stand by that opinion. I think he is the best scorer in Suns history but he wasn't as good as Nash or Charles. He simply isn't on their level and I am sticking to it.

That's not the same thing as constantly criticizing him on that thread (even if he deserves some of it). That's what the game threads are for and evidently this thread.

i understand your point. But, technically, my posts were all "on topic" and highly relevant. If the mods want to establish power of a poster to declare debate not welcome in a thread, then so be it. But it's awkward and subject to partisan enforcement. For example, Hoop will be chomping at the bit to troll me here as he has for 7 years, and he was never asked to cool it. And instead of suspending the poster who called me "dum, dum" the entire thread was suspended.

i must say, to your credit, your opinion has adjusted to the current situation, as everyone should in sports, politics, or whatever instead of just sticking to your "guns." Back then you and i had a long drawn out debate about Booker, if you recall. I said the same things i'm saying today and you basicly dismissed me as a "Booker hater."

at least, at that time, you could have been right that i was nitpicking and Booker had unlimited potential. It still is in the realm of possibility, but highly unlikely. Booker is simply a bad bet now by any measurement.

You vehemently objected to my notion of trading Booker for Damian Lillard. I may have been wrong about that. I don't know. I haven't followed Lillard's career. But from what i remember, he was a deadly clutch shooter.

none-the-less, that was at least a reasonable exchange of points and ideas. Not just a desperate attempt to ridicule me into silence.

 

[Covert Rain]

i understand that logic. But as i demonstrated, it's a bit awkward and subject to partisan enforcement. For example, Hoop will be chomping at the bit to troll me here as he has for 7 years, and he was never asked to cool it.

i must say, to your credit, your opinion has adjusted to the current situation, as everyone should in sports, politics, or whatever instead of just sticking to your "guns." Back then you and i had a long drawn out debate about Booker, if you recall. I said the same things i'm saying today and you basicly dismissed me as a "Booker hater."

at least, at that time, you could have been right that i was nitpicking and Booker had unlimited potential. It still is in the realm of possibility, but highly unlikely. Booker is simply a bad bet now by any measurement.

You vehemently objected to my notion of trading Booker for Damian Lillard. I may have been wrong about that. I don't know. I haven't followed Lillard's career. But from what i remember, he was a deadly clutch shooter.

none-the-less, that was at least a reasonable exchange of points and ideas. Not just a desperate attempt to ridicule me into silence.

Many people get into it with Hoop and I have seen the mods tell him to cool it. I can't talk to your interactions with him but that is my experience.

I don't recall our discussion about Booker but my opinion of every player on this roster is going to morph based on what is going on. For example, I thought Chris Paul was a great fit for time and not so great towards the end. It's not just a Booker thing. For the record, I love Book. Still think he is one of the best players in the league and a dynamic scorer.

I just don't think he is beyond criticism and I don't have homer glasses on with him. Meaning that his place for me in Suns history isn't as high as others and I think Booker can be as mentally soft as anybody on this team. That doesn't mean I don't still love the guy and recognize him for being a damn good player.

In terms of Damian Lillard I don't recall the details of that conversation but it likely had to do with who we had on this team and what adding him but subtracting Book would have done. I am not a big fan of any trade that weakens one position as much as it shores up another. That would have been a push and likely at least part of the reason I objected. I would feel the same today regardless of who we were talking about.

I just think you are way off base why they wanted you to chill out on that thread.

 

[1tinsoldier]

Many people get into it with Hoop and I have seen the mods tell him to cool it. I can't talk to your interactions with him but that is my experience.

I don't recall our discussion about Booker but my opinion of every player on this roster is going to morph based on what is going on. For example, I thought Chris Paul was a great fit for time and not so great towards the end. It's not just a Booker thing. For the record, I love Book. Still think he is one of the best players in the league and a dynamic scorer.

I just don't think he is beyond criticism and I don't have homer glasses on with him. Meaning that his place for me in Suns history isn't as high as others and I think Booker can be as mentally soft as anybody on this team. That doesn't mean I don't still love the guy and recognize him for being a damn good player.

In terms of Damian Lillard I don't recall the details of that conversation but it likely had to do with who we had on this team and what adding him but subtracting Book would have done. I am not a big fan of any trade that weakens one position as much as it shores up another. That would have been a push and likely at least part of the reason I objected. I would feel the same today regardless of who we were talking about.

I just think you are way off base why they wanted you to chill out on that thread.

i agree about CP3. He was a godsend when he was healthy but it was time for him to move on (he should have retired). I'd like to see him coach. I also see a parallel between him and Durant. The Booker fans were never in Paul's court and they aren't in Durant's either. Again, that home-grown nonsense. Booker's iso is worse for the Suns than Durant's (but neither will lead to a championship, especially together).

regarding, he-who-shall-remain-nameless, it's the same old pattern. I say my 2 cents (which granted, is more like $1.50) then, i'd prefer to get back to real life, but his snide remarks, lol's and emojis prod me until it all turns into crap that nobody wants to hear and i leave the forum for a few months at a time.

 

[how_sweet_it_is]

I understand that Booker has been refused an all-star starting spot. I'm sure the NBA will make him a reserve, but I wish it wouldn't. I would rather he get snubbed for that too, because it might send him a message. After all, an all-star game has no effect on the Suns' fortunes.

 

[how_sweet_it_is]

Again, that home-grown nonsense.

The desire to have a home-grown hero to support is not nonsense. It's not fans' fault that after the Steve Nash era, Devin Booker was the only Suns-drafted star at all; and it's not their fault that he disappoints them.

 

[1tinsoldier]

indeed, it's not pure nonsense, it's just plain nonsense. I'd much prefer home-grown too, like watering and feeding Dunn. But they all come from somewhere else. Hell, most AZ residents, including me, came from somewhere else and i'm better for having experienced different environments.

being a hometown favorite is part of Booker's problem. He still thinks his job is to play hero-ball and his funk is not living up to his and everyone else's expectations here. He needs a change and so do we.

 

[1tinsoldier]

I understand that Booker has been refused an all-star starting spot. I'm sure the NBA will make him a reserve, but I wish it wouldn't. I would rather he get snubbed for that too, because it might send him a message. After all, an all-star game has no effect on the Suns' fortunes.

true. But more motivation to prove himself may not be what the Suns need. He plays best, and the team is more successful when he stays in the team concept (which CP3 managed)

Last night the Suns went on a big run in the last few minutes for a change, with Book not playing the point. The prior game, it was us losing a 13 point lead with Booker handling the ball, and that's been very common this season.

Booker loses focus and accuracy when worked up.

His omission was predictable. And it's another example of the local fans being mislead by the hype. Which, btw, failed to sway the votes the past 2 weeks.

In the final voting, Booker finished as the ninth-highest guard in the West, due to his lowly ranks in the fan and media votes.

Booker never was, as we've heard many times on TV and Radio, "underrated." He did deserve to be mentioned as a co-mvp with CP3 during that great season, but overall, the national media had him right as a borderline superstar/all star.

More importantly, for us, the harsh reality is that Booker's salary is unjustified and unsustainable

 

[Covert Rain]

I understand that Booker has been refused an all-star starting spot. I'm sure the NBA will make him a reserve, but I wish it wouldn't. I would rather he get snubbed for that too, because it might send him a message. After all, an all-star game has no effect on the Suns' fortunes.

You received your wish. He didn't get a reserve spot either.